Let's Talk About Heating Shall We?

[delaneymeegan]

WOW, 50% drop !

Rich (sudsy), I'm impressed. You wrote "...the 80% gas furnace would run all night on the coldest nights, and it was still drafty and cold. After the sealing and insulation work, on the coldest nights it might run for a couple hours off and on, and the place is comfortable. All this with single pane windows, too."

Impressive.

I had a house like that and I remember fitting out the attic with 12" of insulation in November. I remember putting the last piece in place, and dropping the insulated attic panel, in the hallway, into place. 10 seconds later the furnace, which was running most of the time, shut off..... and I swear I heard a hushed 'Thank-you' echo up through the cold air duct.

In your case, will you go for another 50% reduction? Soon you could be heating with light bulbs, and in that climate, it wouldn't be difficult.

 

[lordkenmore]

Any questions, comments, opinions, ideas?

You asked for my opinion, and so you're getting it! Be careful what you ask for next time. LOL

>Despite all the hoopla to the contrary, replacing windows was not that high on the list.

Somehow, I'm not surprised about windows. I suppose fancy new windows do lose less heat, and there may be cases where it's the best choice for whatever reason. That said, those windows are expensive, and that raises the whole number of years of payback. Which brings up another issue: those windows may need replacement themselves, and when that happens, will they have been paid off with energy savings?

Being cynical, I think the window craze is a mix of energy companies happy (it probably does save something), and it sure keeps the window industry running, full steam ahead.

 

[wayupnorth]

You guys are 100% right with the suggestions. I am a BPI certified energy auditor and you look for all of those things so the envelope is sealed.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

<blushing> ... Why thank you, kind Sir. I just might print out and frame that comment. At the time, all the adults thought us 14 yr old nerds were being so silly.

The thing with the windows is that what they say about thermal losses was generally technically true. BUT... and this is one MF-er of a but ... Most of the time windows that needed to be replaced ALSO had major air leaks. New windows did not. YES, your reduction of thermal losses through the glass were as great as the company claimed, however, most of the energy saving came from the fact that the new windows did NOT have air leaks. Therefore, more often than not you'd get half or more of the energy savings just by re-weatherstripping, re-fuzzing, re-caulking, re-puttying, etc. the old windows. IIRC, this was doubly true if you had even the trashiest storm windows and re-everything-ed them as well. The point is that generally the window companies were not lying. They were just not telling you that you could get half or more the savings with 1/10 the money by fixing up your present windows.

OK, did that last paragraph make sense?

Also, the second best bang for the buck was a DIY job of adding insulation to the attic. Adding/installing insulation in the walls was usually not worth it because of the expense. IIRC, you were better off insulating your basement walls from the top down to a foot or so below the frost line.

Damn! I had no idea I'd retained all this, lol.

Jim

 

[lordkenmore]

>Also, the second best bang for the buck was a DIY job of adding insulation to the attic. Adding/installing insulation in the walls was usually not worth it because of the expense.

Seems logical. Heat rises, after all, and it seems like it'll be more likely to head up to make a break for liberty.

The roof where I live (old tin can, er, mobile home) is thin, and doesn't have the best insulation. In winter, one can tell just by touching the ceiling that heat loss is going on--the ceiling always feels cold to the touch.

 

[wayupnorth]

It doesnt really matter as long as you try your best as possible and with what you can spend to save energy. Its better to have just a plain outside storm window and have a maximum insulated attic and sealed up everything to save the most energy than putting in pretty windows. Heat rises and if you can keep it in the living area, thats what you want. But you have to have a properly ventilated attic space and basement so mold cant grow. 20 years ago I did what was more than code to this place and the new things they have now in saving and making energy is amazing.

 

[norgeway]

Re Furnace efficency

Most of the talk about efficiency is what is being told by furnace salesmen,and the government,who would have everyone change out any unit over 5 years old!...Even a converted coal furnace is around 60 to 70 percent efficient, just about all the oil and gas furnaces made in the 50s and 60s were 75 to 80 percent efficient, GE oil furnaces were very efficient for their day, over 80% when introduced in the 30s,My opinion is this, all these so called high efficiency furnaces sold today are just like new appliances, cheaply made junk with a short lifespan, yes, they use less fuel, but to my mind you can buy a lot of fuel for that old Waterbury, Lennox or York oil furnace that has been running since 1950 with very little trouble,with the money you spend on computer boards etc and replacing a new unit every 8 to 12 years,I used to service a furnace for a Lady in my hometown that was installed in 1954, A Waterbury oil furnace, it had the same oil pump, transformer ,both burner and blower motor and fan limit control that it came with, the only thing that had ever been replaced was the stack switch, it had been serviced every year, and as far as I know is still running, I remember her saying she burned around 500 gallons a year for heat, and the house is about 1400 square feet or so, I think that's pretty cheap when you look at the whole picture.

 

[washman]

Good points Norgeway

My former abode was constructed in the late 80's. Installed was a Whirlpool/Heil gas furnace. I moved in in 99. Lived their 15 years. Not one single repair on that furnace all the while I lived there. In fact, last fall it was inspected as they did yearly and the burner, thermocouple, and heat exchanger will in perfect working order. No relay, control board, $400 thermostat to break. Just good old fashioned stuff that worked. Same thing for the Sears/Whirlpool/Heil R22 outdoor unit. Was installed same time as furnace. Never once needed a charge or anything all the while I lived there and it cooled perfectly.

I shudder to think what it will cost to fix my Goodman (union built) when the flame sensor dies. Or the inducer motor. Or the scary looking control board on the blower. At least the outdoor unit is a basic 13 SEER. Worst thing that can eff up there is the start/run capacitor and I know how to change those. No two stage doo dad thingy to blow up or burn out. Thank god.

As I have said before, all this electronic razmatazz is lovely until it breaks. Then your so called energy cost savings go up in smoke, literally, as you foot the repair bill.

 

[sudsmaster]

Delaney,

 

You know, my memory played tricks on me. I used the home energy data for a statistics class project. Unfortunately I no longer have the software to view the graphs, but the notes I left in text form indicate I found 30-40% reduction in gas consumption after the insulation was done. I'm not sure if it included the pre-sealing data as a baseline or the post-sealing data. In any case, the place is far more comfortable with these improvements.

 

The furnace itself is, I think, a 35 year old  150,000 BTU unit, and is now over sized for the house. It's probably about 75% efficient. There would probably be even more savings by getting a lower output 90%+ unit in there. It might also be quieter. But this one is holding up well, and I keep a CO detector in the bedroom just in case.

 

[gusherb]

Flame sensors don't usually go bad that often, and when they do it's often just a cleaning that's necessary. Draft inducers I think are usually a couple hundred bucks but are usually not that hard to replace. The circuit board could be a problem but I think most furnaces use a fairly generic board nowadays and aren't horrifically expensive, about a couple hundred bucks maybe. Replacing them isn't too hard either if you know how to work on electrical. Similar to fiddling with appliances. Just gotta remember what goes where and best to have a wiring schematic.

The only thing you can expect to go bad would be the hot surface igniter, I think those are usually about 40 bucks or so and can take up to about 20 minutes to replace depending on how hard it is to get at.

Certainly not as trusty as a fan/limit switch, transformer, gas valve, thermocouple, paired with a lovely Gold Honeywell T87, but modern gas furnaces haven't turned to COMPLETE junk yet AFAIK.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Back in the late 70's grandfather checked into having his oil fired boiler changed to save energy. I don't recall the name but I do know it was in the house and was not new when my grandparents purchased it in 1953. The previous owners had a reputation for doing things TOL so I assume that applied to the boiler as well. My grandfather was told that his boiler was running about 70% efficiency and that was too high to be worth replacing. The only repairs I recall were an inexpensive part that broke every 10 years and the fionverted coal furlter housing/casing cracked and leaked once and had to be replaced. That was it.

"converted coal furnace": I was with my grandfather helping him with something in a far corner of the property and we heard my grandmother screaming. We looked up and she was running toward us, doing an O.J. Simpson (through the airport) over bushes and fallen trees, etc.. We saw this huge cloud of billowing black smoke behind the trees. It was coming out of the tenants house next door. G'ma was rattling on about needing to get something in the house (nobody was home there). I was just old enough that there was no way in hell I was going to let her go in first. So after making sure the door was cool I cautiously cracked it open. All was fine. G'ma went and got whatever. We figured we were confused and it was another house next door so we should call the fire dept. NOPE! It was this house. I opened basement door and all was well there too. We all go back outside AGAIN and check.... still smoke. We go back downstairs to the totally normal basement. This time I noticed the old mica sight glass was glowing way brighter than I'd ever seen before. The fire dept showed up and they'd already guessed the cause.

A piece of dirt had gotten past the filter and stuck in the just so oil ever so slowly dribbled down and filled up the boiler from the bottom. When it got hot enough it ignited. The firemen said there was nothing to do except to let it burn itself out. They said it was quite safe because if something were going to happen, it already would have. Though my grandparents had never heard of such a thing, the firemen said it wasn't all that rare and it was a sign that the boiler was a good one. Apparently good quality coal-fired steam boilers handle post conversion oil fires with no problem. Cheapo ones do not and the house goes up in flames.

Damn! This thread has brought up so many memories, lol.

Jim

 

[countryguy]

Ceiling Fans

I have a ceiling fan and was told to operate it in the winter so that it blows the air up and thus forces the warmer air at the ceiling along the ceiling and down the walls to the floor. In the summer the direction is reversed so that the air blows down and forces the warmer air up to the ceiling.

Gary

 

[norgeway]

I have seen...

Something similar, the cutoff valve in the pump of our furnace when I was a kid stuck, luckily I saw smoke from the chimney and went to check the furnace, I was about 10, but knew enough to know there was a problem. a new pump fixed it, but if it had leaked into the furnace during the summer and built up, the first time it came on would have been a big fire, I have known of this happening, usually burning the house down, that was something we checked closely when I was servicing furnaces, if the oil tank was above the furnace level, if the cutoff was not quick and sure, we usually installed a delayed oil valve, this electrically cut off the oil, plus it let the burner run 15 seconds before ignition thus making smoother starts and stops, cleaner burning and less soot.

 

[wayupnorth]

I have a New Yorker boiler that has normally used 500 gallons of oil for all my heat and hot water for nearly 2000 sq. ft.in a 12 month period. My last fillup, which I have (2) 330 gallon tanks filled was 650 gallons, but was $400 less than I paid last year for 500. Guess I was close to empty, but it was the coldest winter on record.

 

[norgeway]

I always liked!

A New Yorker, very easy to clean out, much easier than the old cast iron American Standards .

 

[launderess]

Here in NYC

There are hundreds of coal converted to oil and or gas (dual fuel) steam boilers and they are doing just fine.

Walk up and down streets of say Manhattan and peer into basements especially of pre-war buildings and you'll find plenty of fire tube boilers that once burnt coal but have been converted to oil. Since those things went in when buildings were built (it goes up around them) they aren't coming out easily. Unless there is access the only way is to chop the things up.

Newer buildings say those that went up in the 1970's or later are another matter.

Regarding another poster's comments about finite fossil fuel resources that simply isn't wholly true. Oil and natural gas supplies are plentiful enough to be causing glut atm. Many countries such as places in Europe, Asia and a good part of the United States also have vast reserves of coal. Thing is burning the stuff just isn't politically popular since various "clean air" acts went into place and certainly now with all the noise over *global warming*.

Being as that may plenty of persons with access to coal in the North East United States and elsewhere will burn the stuff in stoves or boilers/furnaces if they can lay hands on a good supply. You can also purchase brand new state of the art furnaces and boilers designed to burn coal.

When home heating oil prices were very high coal sales soared. The United States is a vast country and not every rural or suburban areas are piped for natural gas. So it is either oil, propane, coal or wood.

Anthracite is one of the cleanest burning fossil fuels and gives one of the highest returns in terms of energy produced. It is also quite clean burning as well. The smoke and mess persons often associate with burning coal comes from the soft variety.

 

[wayupnorth]

You are right Laundress, Good old Anthracite burns just fine and gives a good even long lasting heat. Easy to get going with my charcoal idea. The pot belly stove I have was grandfathers, from a railroad caboose and when it was running is cold on the chimney pipe, barely warm on the top of the stove and nothing coming out of the chimney outside at -20 outside, but VERY hot off the bottom where the fire is. All the furnaces are spewing vapor out the chimneys, nothing from the coal from my chimney. And Hans, knock on wood, my New Yorker is almost 21 years of perfect service.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, AFAIK, the main worry with an old gas forced air furnace is that the heat exchanger might have cracked, letting out CO into the heated home air. Which is why I keep a CO sensor by the bed. As I recall when I bought the place about 18 years ago the inspector said there was no sign of cracking, and I'm thinking that's still the case. The fan comes on after less than a minute of flame (I can hear the whine of the igniter and/or gas jets in the house before the fan comes on), and then continues for a minute or two after the gas shuts off. I understand that if the fan shuts off too quickly then the heat exchanger can cool unevenly and that can lead to cracking.

 

The furnace control looks very simple. Don't recall the brand but somewhere I have all the wiring/literature for it.

 

 

[wayupnorth]

A cracked heat exchanger in a hot air system or any system is bad news and keeping a working CO2 detector is a must for every home, just like smoke alarms. AND we should check all of them as the time changes back within the next week.

 

[norgeway]

If you have oil

You will KNOW if a heat exchanger cracks!!!Soot and SMELL!