Liquid vs powder laundry detergent

[allan]

Hi,

I bought an LG WM1355HW front loader last week to replace a low-end, 17 year-old GE top loader that broke down for the 3rd and final time. So far, I love the LG (it's my first front loader ever) and am using Nellie's All Natural Laundry Soda:

http://nelliesallnatural.com/internal/?type=Laundry

I use 1 tablespoon (or one scoop) as directed. The machine is 2.7 cubic feet capacity and the water in my little apartment is soft. I chose this detergent because I read that it doesn't create a lot of suds which means less chance of moldy smell, and I wanted to use something a bit more eco-friendly after years of using Tide, Sunlight, etc.

So far, I've only done 5-6 loads, and the Nellie's soda seems to dissolve very well. There is indeed little to no sudsing. I have so far resisted the temptation to put in more than one scoop per load. Also, the detergent dispenser drawer is clean as a whistle after every load--no undissolved powder left behind.

But I found this webpage that says powered detergents can damage a washer compared to liquid detergents:

http://washerfan.com/faqs.htm

"Liquid vs. powder HE soap. This statement stirs a lot of debate. The Washer Fan™ team has personally worked on and completely dismantled dozens of washers. We have observed that powdered soap can literally destroy a washer because of the un-dissolved powder residue that coats internal parts. A washer with an internal coating of powdered soap residue is prone to mechanical failure and is more expensive to fix than its replacement value. We have disassembled washers whose owners used way more than the recommended amount of liquid detergent that resulted in a slight film coating on all internal parts. We determined that the film coating didn't damage the washers and that average use expectancy was not shortened; however, there was a severe mold and odor problem. In the final analysis, don't use powdered detergent in your washer and use the recommended 1 to 2 tablespoons of liquid HE detergent to reduce mold and odor."

So now I am confused and concerned. Should I continue using the powdered type, or should I switch to liquid? I want this washer to last as long as possible.

Thanks for any advice you can give me!

Allan

 

[allan]

I'm so sorry, I posted this in the wrong forum.

 

[funktionalart]

From one LG owner to another....

Allan,
For what it's worth, I can tell you that if you stay this diligent about your machine and utilise the liquid HE type as I do then you likely will have no problems.

I've the black version of your machine (larger capacity model WM2277HB) which I bought in 2006. ZERO issues. I couldn't be happier. Never have I experienced any of the "issues" many complainers on "review" sites have stated regarding newer front loaders and LG's in particular. After all these years, my machine's dispensers are gleaming clean, and I've not ever experienced the musty/mouldy odours so many folks mention. Recently I removed the deck lid just to inspect things--not any signs of leakages, misdirected detergent, etc.

On a side note, though--alot of buyers of this sort of machine think there's something wrong because they're used to seeing a huge drum full of sudsy water that top loaders of years past gave--so they pile in the detergent thinking it'll help clean clothing better. LG specify something on the order of 2 tbsp HE....but I'm guilty of always having used 3-4. No trouble (for me) so far.

Not long ago I looked at buying a "parts" machine for down the road in case this one ever gave up on me. Can't tell you how many I saw which had abundant evidence of undissolved powder in dispensers.....caked on everywhere and plenty of softener residue. They really looked horrible. A great deal of users are pretty clueless and careless--amazing considering what these machines cost! Hope this is of some help!

Allen

 

[frigilux]

Although I use the pod format these days (usually Tide or Wisk's offerings) I've used powders for years in front-loaders without any problems. Have never seen undissolved powder in the dispenser drawer, inside the washer or on clothes. Like you, I have very soft water.

If you like Nellie's, and you're not seeing undissolved detergent on clothes, use it. I see from your link that they make a pod version as well. Might have to give them a try.

Enjoy your new LG! They make great front-loaders.

 

[revvinkevin]

Powerder detergent damages the machine? A load of crap!

 

 

I prefer powered detergent and have used it in my Frigidaire Gallery FL washer since new and it's 16 years old now.   I've only had 2 minor "problems" with the washer and neither were related to the type of detergent used.

 

Personally I think it's MORE an issue of using the incorrect water temp (always cold no matter what, for example) than the choice of powered or liquid detergent.   Especially if claims of powder not dissolving is the complaint.

 

Manufacturers are moving away from powdered and toward liquid to make more money.  

 

1.  Liquid ingredients costs less, plus it's easier combine them to make liquid detergent.

 

2. They can use less filler in the detergent, saving space.

 

3. They can use smaller packaging, which takes up less storage, shipping and shelf space at the stores, which also costs less.

 

Use what ever H.E. (high efficency) detergent (powder or liquid) that you want and use the correct wash temps.  

 

The damage they are referring to is probably caused by over sudsing or other chemical additives.  IMHO.   Either that or they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

 

Kevin

 

[liamy1]

Front loader washer

This may sound of inexperience here, but I really don't get why there is the issue with mould/smells in front load machines in the US.

We have used front loaders mainly over here in the UK for around 40 years (as far as I know we almost completely by-passed top loaders) going straight from twin tubs to Front Loaders. Also the top loaders we do have aren't the same as the ones you have.

However, in all the time of using FL over here, I have never heard of anyone saying that they have problems with mould or smells, just because they use a FL machine (sure if someone doesn't look after their machine, then it will get cruddy, but not a general, using a FL means mould and smells)
?
So it makes me think, what causes this issue in North America. Is it your detergents? Are they different to ours? Or water?

In answer to the which format is better, the advice given over here is the opposite to what has been suggested to you; liquid is worse for machines, as they don't contain any bleaching agents, so therefore, due to the lack of bleach, this means bacteria has more of a chance of taking hold, and there being a sludgy/liquid detergent left in the drum. General advice we're told, is to run a hot wash (203 degrees) with powder detergent and no laundry, do this once a month or so, to keep machine clean.

HTH

 

[mark_wpduet]

I have used powder

for 9+ years. I too think it's water temperature people use that causes the mold smells and detergent build up more than the type of detergent used. North Americans are not/were not used to having front load washers like in EU, so all this time has been a learning curve for most people would be my guess. Shutting the door after it's finished, using cold water with too much detergent, too much fab softener.

There was a post I was reading earlier of someone in the UK's front loader full of mold. I think it was a friend or family member who left laundry in for days at a time. So it's not like it can't happen in other countries.

Do people in the UK leave the door slightly open after it's used or do they shut it up completely? I notice most FL washers are in kitchens there, so I would guess it would be a pain to leave the door opened, but they don't circulate air as well as TL washers so I've always left mine slightly opened and never mold or smells

 

[ronhic]

A few tips and tricks to ensure your machine stays sweet-smelling

 

- If you prefer cooler wash temperatures, liquid detergent and fabric softener....then do a HOT wash (60c plus) at least every other week to properly clean the outer drum.

 

- Powder detergent is best. In this country at least, the cleaning power of the leading powdered detergents are at least 10% higher than the liquid equivalent.

 

- People who use powder rarely complain about their machines smelling manky and going mouldy - it tends to be cool/liquid/fabric conditioner users.

 

- NEVER keep the door closed on a front load machine if it isn't actually washing - it creates a lovely, moist environment for mould.

 

- WIPE the door seal out when you have finished washing....leave the door ajar with a dry face-flannel folded over the top of the door between the door and the seal so it can't fully close and simply push it to.

 

- If you're a person who washes some things in cooler water, but others in hot...such as sheets, wash the 'HOT' washes last....especially if you don't use fabric conditioner in those particular loads. This will prevent you having to do a maintenance wash.

 

- Continual COOL/COLD washes, particularly with liquid detergent and combined with fabric conditioner causes a sticky grey 'gloop' referred to as SCRUD to accumulate between the drums of ALL machines. A HOT wash every week or so, powdered detergent and reducing or not using fabric conditioner will prevent it completely.

 

Finally, take 'advertorials' with a dose of cynicism.....

 

[sudsmaster]

I suspect the good folks at Washerfan have it a bit wrong here.

The problem with modern powders is that most of them no longer have phosphates. Why is that a problem? Well, complex phosphates, once common in laundry powders, do an excellent job of softening hard water as well as removing dirt that contains hard water minerals from fabrics. In its stead, modern powders mostly use sodium carbonate, which has the unfortunate tendency to form limestone (calcium or magnesium carbonate) inside the washer. This generally shows up as "lint" on dark fabrics, but it can also cause a deposit inside the washer. Some time ago I tore down a vintage RCA top loader that had a thick crust of such deposits in the outer drum. Awful.

More expensive modern HE powders may use other effective means of removing hard water minerals without leaving a deposit. They use phosphonates and/or zeolites, mostly. A good one to try is Persil - it's one of the most respected front loader powders on the market, and it works quite well.

For your situation, if you have soft water, then the hard water mineral precipitate problem probably isn't a concern for your washer, especially if your laundry generally doesn't have a lot of clay dirt on it.

Liquid detergents get around the hard water mineral precipitate problem by using different water softeners, such as sodium citrate. But I don't think they clean heavily soiled fabrics as well as good powders.

Me, I use Sears HE detergent boosted 30% by weight with STPP, the complex phosphate compound that used to be in most powders. It works wonderfully, and there are no deposits inside my Neptune washer as a result (it was torn down after three years of use for unrelated repairs and I could see the inside of the outer tub was as clean as a whistle). I also use it in my Miele washers. Although I've found it necessary for them, because they take only cold tap water, and heat it internally, to add the detergent directly to the drum, instead of via the detergent drawer. That's because in cold water the Sears HE doesn't dissolve very well, while it dissolves just fine in warm or hot water. And of course the Sears HE powder dissolves with agitation and heating of the water in the Miele washer.

Your "natural" powder probably just has sodium carbonate with nothing fancy for water softening. If you're getting good results, and not finding any lint on dark fabrics, you're probably fine using it with your soft water. You can also check for precipitation by shaking a bit of detergent with some tap water in a jar. If the water becomes cloudy and stays that way, or shows white precipitate settling at the bottom of the jar, then your water is too hard and/or the detergent insufficiently formulated to avoid the problem.

 

[launderess]

Liquid Detergents Are Designed To Deal With Oil and Fat

Based soils. Who or what gives anyone the idea they aren't isn't "well informed" as another member would say.

Aside from automatic dishwasher detergents when was the last time you've seen a powdered product for washing up? See? You cannot say because ever since modern surfactants replaced soap there hasn't been one. Well there was Dreft and other light duty products that were SLS powder products meant for cleaning everything from dishes to fine laundry.

Just as with washing greasy dishes if the proper detergent to soil ratio is not reached and or maintained you end up with all sorts of problems. Fats will not emulsify and or kept in suspension, etc... and so forth.

Standard practice for *ANY* laundry detergent for ages now has been if using temps below warm the amount of product needs to be increased to compensate for lack of thermal power.

Powdered detergents contain alkaline substances which for lack of a better comparison react with oils and fats found in laundry to create soap if you will. That is the basic chemical reaction between all base substances and fats. When you use lye for instance to clear a clogged drain more often than not you are depending upon that substance breaking down grease and fats in the drain to form a type of soap. This reaction produces heat in the process which hopefully will make a jelly or semi solid if not liquid mass that can be then flushed clearing the drain.

Yes, we all know liquid detergents cannot in of themselves attack certain soils and stains. They lack bleach for one reason. The other is some stains or soils need a reaction with alkaline substances to effectively deal. Again hence the plethora of additives and boosters sold today for laundry.

If you recall early liquid laundry detergents such as Wisk and later Dynamo were touted as being able to cope with soils and stains that powders could not shift. Things like grease, oils, collar soils, etc... They got better at collar soil removal when protein enzymes were added. Until then housewives and others were advised to make a paste of powdered detergent and water to pre-treat such stains. Not only did this not always work but could end up abrading fabric as well.

 

[washer111]

Hmmm

It seems I may stand corrected (since I'm pretty adamant I've made a comment like that recently... Maybe not here though :/ )

 

I always get confused with what liquids and powders can, and cannot do...

 

But Launderess' suggestions are probably the best you can get. Launderess is quite literally sitting on a veritable pile of laundry knowledge. It always comes in handy!

 

[sudsmaster]

I prefer to view it this way:

Liquid detergents suck at cleaning off heavy clay based soil from fabrics. They are acceptable but not outstanding for cleaning oil and fat based soil from fabrics. It's not so much that they are designed to work on oil/fat as it is that is basically their strength from the get-go.

All around, powdered, alkaline detergents excel at both clay based soil and oil/fat based soils. This is because they have stronger "break" compounds which help to grab mineral soils from fabrics, and because their alkalinity combines with oils/fats to create soap which is more easily removed from the fabrics. They are best if compounded with non-precipitating water softening agents like complex phosphates (STPP) or zeolites. Cheap powders tend not to have these better agents and hence can cause deposit problems in hard water.

Enzymes such as proteinases are often added to both types of detergents, which can help remove protein based soils on fabrics. Other enzymes that may be added include oil eating (lipases) and pill eating (cellulases). Enzymes can cause allergic or sensitivity reactions; for this reason dry detergents with enzymes have to have the enzymes encapsulated to minimize consumer exposure from enzyme dust. Liquids obviously don't have that kind of dust problem, and for a while until the industry figured out how to encapsulate enzymes to solve the sensitivity problem, liquid detergents were the ones where enzymes could be had. This continues to this day with separate liquid enzymatic boosters like Biz still available for extra cleaning action on protein based stains.

Oxygen bleach can be compounded to either to help whiten stains and fabrics. Chlorine bleach cannot be mixed into the product prior to use; it must be added by the consumer at time of laundering.

For delicate fabrics, the gentler cleaning action of liquid detergents is often desirable, especially items with rubber or leather backing that could be deteriorated by harsher alkaline powders. As might be expected, there is variation in the alkalinity of liquids, so one that is designated as being better with delicates is probably better than a generic liquid, and a non-enzyme detergent is probably more gentle than one with enzymes.

 

[allan]

Thanks for all the info everyone! Very, very useful!

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Well....cannot share  in it's totality the fact about liquid detergents being designed  do deal  with oily stains, as I have understood it,  don't get me wrong, this is what I can  see most could only do, but unfortunately  that's not exactly what they claims they can do....and back then also, let's say they likes to inflate their qualities, but yes, they did born as a way to help to deal with stains, and likely oily ones.

I share in full sudmaster's words,  and say liquid may be best for pretreating and so on-stain action though, but they cannot do all the stains in-wash for which powders excels for, nor better, so it's not that  powders are  less powerful than liquids for oily soils in wash water or composition (rather the opposite in many cases as you have surfactans plus an alkaline kick) , it's just that as stated by Launderess the liquid was and is ( for those needing to do it) easier to use for pretreating and is gentler for that matter..." ring around the collar" should say  you something, as for every commercial of earlier liquids, all what they mentioned as a pro for liquids was that they could be used to pretreat and they were claimed being " gentler" and or "deeper" action...if we want to speak about what is best on grease,  all the heavy duty degreasers are made by blends of anionic and or nonionic surfactans along with either phosphates where permitted ( over here chante clair sgrassatore) or  surfactans with alkaline ingredients such as Deepio ( Uk) etc...alkaline stuff so sodium carbonate and even extra alkaline such as sodium hydroxide are since always involved and  perhaps the most famous as powerful solutions in degreasing,so also soap making, for the same named reaction....  Not a case the most powerful boil outs  and cleaners for fryers and such infact are made with sodium hydroxide.
For what concerns dishwashing detergent by hand, could tell many powders detergents  meant for washing up, mostly used for institutional use over here now, and or  ones still used and sold  for households in other countries, where powders still survive, even though being replaced by liquids because of their convenience of use in all cases.
Handwashing dish  powders  are still used in this country almost exclusively in institutional dishwashing which  is well different that what you do at home, especially today with all the dishwasher around and  where what you may need to  have washed or pre-washed  by hand is less.
But
Liquid in dishwashing is anyway the double more versatile and easy than the powder.....used in solution or pure onto the sponge, and that is why most now use liquids, unlike here powder washing up detergents in  US  and North America completely  and more logically ceased  their existence in both commercial and households, since very long now, so killed by the fact that they need to be dissolved in water and cannot be poured on the sponge like a liquid and will not be as easy to use as a liquid for today's average  domestic dishwashing use, especially few dishes at a time (pour on the wet sponge/cloth and scrub and rinse) ....this is not the exact technique which  is still done in institutional commercial use,  ie large sinks with soaked up dishes and pans washed almost underwater and rinsed in the next tub, also having commercial dishwashers short cycles can't often deal with heavy soils, and prewash is often a due step  in institutional dishwashing processes  so still done on a regular basis before machine wash which is rather a "final-touch".
And anyway different  technique than what the average person do nowadays at home, so  again wet a dish, wet a sponge, put liquid in it, scrub and rinse.....you do not see many folks doing the dishwashing underwater like it used to be,at home, at least not like in the past with less dishwashers around and large quantities of dishes having to be done by hand.....but you see it  still done like this  in institutional commercial dishwashing and that is why powders are still able to find their ways in these cases only....
Beside  that, anionic and nonionic surfactans are made both in powder and liquid.....so......
If we want to speak outside of Europe and North America, this is also why dishwashing  powders are still largely used  in countries with water problems  where like for their laundry and  so again like  over here in institutional/ industrial  occasions,  you have many people using  the same wash water  more times....so where dishwashing does not mean for the average housewife to  run water wet a sponge, rinse the dish, scrub and rinse with current water....but a soak-in wash, or take a bowl and mix the stuff with water and dip your sponge into.
Just think of  how big is still Axion powder sold throughout south america ......they have of course also a liquid version, and also a  strong gel/paste to rub and use directly on the sponge for the other dishwashing method mentioned,  but powder detergents are still big thing in these countries for the reason mentioned, even though logically being replaced by liquids that can do both, just  think also about all the plain surfactans based  multipurpose powder detergents you find in these countries, so same for laundry and dishes, like BTW used to be in the past in the US too....not only Dreft, but many others, also Tide, could also mention many european or italian powder detergents meant exclsuively for dishes of which a couple  you could still find today , lanza piatti, Scala, Kop  etc.. 
So I don't think it is because of greater ability to deal with grease the fact of liquids being preferred in dishes, just convenience  and versatility of use....
So:
Liquid detergents for laundry were designed to have an  easier *better*  gentler pretreating of stains and especially oily greasy as they could get inside the stain being a liquid.

Talking about laundry powders vs liquids, will not really comment all the urban legends about build up of the one or the other...nor what it's best because it's up to personal choice, even though you'll clearly understand from my lines what I think being best.
Anyway.....
Both may potentially lead to build up of various kinds just the same respectively.
If you get  any probs  is just for lack of manteinance or improper use  of your machine....along with using on a reg basis crappy stuff.
So
 Always low wash temp, using liquids only, door closed, over use of powder, bad powders and liquid  etc...

Nothing will avoid you to take care of your machine, by:
Ensure a hot wash at least once a month (better if with oxy bleach or chlorine) to kill mold and such, keep  doors and lids ajar, running a cycle with some citric acid from time to time, avoid over dosing of detergents and softeners or use of crappy  formulated soda-laden ones....

For cleaning ability,  just go with what you find being best, Nellie's soda as per name contains and washes thanks to natural  soda (sodium carbonate alkaline agent), it will  likely rely  mostly if not totally on it for builders  purpose  and also also cleaning one,  this of course along with some natural soap, so  it  will likely miss  usual ingredients such as zeolites and policarboxilates (the last are also used as an anti corrosive and machine protector agents)  and  because of it such and will have an increased soda amount....this may potentially lead in an increased  mineral precipitations build up due to the soda, which is famous for that matter....like on the other hand are also zeolites  , even if less  than soda and more "easy rinsing".
Soda has a bad fame for precipitating mineral build up.... Like liquids have a bad reputation in gunk, germs and mold  and plain calcium  limestones.
So running an empty hot  wash with a mild acid such as vinegar or citric acid or use a  washing machine cleaner from time to time  for minerals  and ensure  an hot wash and  proper sanification  often is the key to keep your machine nice, crap-free and so functional as long as possible..... No need to fans, deodorants and BS like that....
No detergent and gadget  in  this world will avoid one to give proper manteinance....[this post was last edited: 6/27/2014-16:07]

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Prefer liquids as they don't need dissolving and I use Persil generally and do a hot wash weekly. Never had problems with front loaders. Wouldn't use powder again due to blockages in septic tank.

 

[washman]

Frig, here's a "nugget" of advice

Stick with the pods!