Miele W1 WXR 860 WCS Frustrations

[ivanovitch_k]

"Controlled energy cons" option

@hippo

from the WT1 service manual (but also applies to W1), if that may be of any help:

The controlled energy consumption controls the duration of heating activation
to achieve the selected temperature in the laundry.
The heating time is calculated with the following parameters:
– Desired temperature
– Water quantity
– Start temperature before heating is activated
– Heater resistance
– Voltage
In unfortunate cases, the laundry temperature may be less than the selected
temperature.
This function can be activated/deactivated in the programming mode.

The heating switch-on duration is varied in order to control energy
consumption.
A Select the programmable function Controlled energy consumption and
confirm the selection.
A Select the programmable option and confirm the selection.
– Off: no calculation of heating time. The heating is controlled independently
of the temperature set.
– On: Factory default setting: the duration of heating is calculated using
the selected temperature, water quantity, water intake temperature, load
size and load type parameters.

 

[henene4]

If you have an IntenseWash equipped washer, turning that off will also switch off the IntenseWash algorithm.

Recirculation will still be active, however.

 

[hippo]

@ivanovitch_k, thank you very much for that interesting information. Could you or anybody provide an explanation of what exactly it means though? What happens when the Controlled Energy Consumption is switched off and "heating is controlled independently of the temperature set?" Does that mean that the unit doesn't adjust the heating and runs the heater for a fixed time in each cycle?

 

The entire system as described is rather confusing to me since I always assumed the machines just used a thermostat to ensure that the target temperature was achieved. It sounds as though with Controlled Energy Consumption switched on that the machines guesses how much heating is needed based on all of those parameters instead of measuring the actual temperature? And then what does it do with Controlled Energy Consumption off?

 

@ henene4, unfortunately there is no direct option for this on the my US model.

 

[launderess]

" I always assumed the machines just used a thermostat to ensure that the target temperature was achieved."

Sadly that is not true, nor has been for some time now, at least for washing machines sold in Europe.

Days of thermo-stop settings on timers or whatever that will hold things until set temperature is reached seems to have gone way of Dodo. Some machines will hit set/target temperature, others don't. And when the latter doesn't it can be off by more than a few degrees.

https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help...ine-washer-dryer/4062-washing-machine-heating

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?44875

"Even though we found machines often didn’t hit 60°C, manufacturers are not actually cheating the EU energy labels because there’s no requirement for the washing machine to reach the temperature stated on the control panel."

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2013/08/washing-machines-dont-reach-correct-temperature-330730/

 

[hippo]

Thank you, @launderess. That is very informative albeit disappointing.

Does anybody know if having Controlled Energy Consumption on or off for the Miele will lead to more accurate washing temperatures?

 

[launderess]

PR from Miele about new line of W1 and T1 models.

https://www.mieleusa.com/m/miele-announces-relaunch-of-w1-washing-machines-and-t1-dryers-1140.htm

 

[henene4]

Off will heat by temp purely.
Unless a different temperature target is defined in the programming, what you select will be what you get.
If the cycle is designed to have a temp target lower than what you selected (for example in economy cycles) this lower temp will certainly reached.

So for example if the normal cycle (which is your label cycle) dosen't call for 140F when you select Hot+, even with controlled energy consumption off, it won't reach that.

However, for example, Easy Care will just heat to what you have selected.

And to clarify something:

What I tried to say before is that the IntenseWash process (heating with steam etc.) requires cec (controlled energy consumption) to be turned on.

So if you turn cec off the machine will always fill with water and completely saturate the load. "Normal washing" basically.

On the idea of CEC:

Miele realised that temp isn't really what you need, it's energy input.
As long as a certain amount of energy is used in cleaning a load - no matter in which order or in which way - the results will be basically the same.

So the machine knows that if it tumbles for a certain time, added a certain amount of energy and had the chemicals distributed correctly, the detergent will have had enough resources to dissolve dirt.
If it actually reaches exactly 140F, or 10F plus minus, dosen't really matter for cleaning.

For hygiene of course not. That's why many IntenseWash equipped machines had many options for such situations (AllergyCare, Cotton's Hygiene etc.)
For example, Cotton's Hygiene over here is now just about the same length as the normal Cottons cycle. Main difference is more heating. It could get clean with less energy, but that's not the objective there.

Maybe it's easier to understand on the dishwashers (yes, their dishwashers apparently do the same thing):

For drying, it always takes a certain amount of energy to evaporate a certain amount of water.
So, as the G7000 models know pretty spot on how much water the dishes need to be coated, it knows just about how much water has to evaporate off of them.

So to dry them, it has to provide that certain amount of energy.
How hot that ends up to be dosen't matter.

That function however makes a lot more sense over here.

Our energy label has pretty exact energy usage requirements tested with very simple input conditions.

So if Miele wanted to reach a certain efficiency rating, it doesn't have to define every test condition seperartly.
They just define how much cleaning action is required, set an energy budget and then their algorithm will just adjust accordingly.

So a 4kg in an Eco cycle will ALWAYS use 0.75kWh.
No matter how cold the water, how low the voltage, how bad the conditions.
Far more accurate than just timed heating.

I am still not sure if that function also works the other way around.
It could be possible that the machine overshoots temps on purpose. A load that is pretty large and unevenly heats might register as target temp before the core of the load reaches that temp.
Then CEC could theoretically know that the load can't yet have reached temp as there hasn't been enough energy delivered to the load and continue heating anyways.
No idea how to test if that is a case, but just a thought.

 

[hippo]

@henene4, thank you very much for your very detailed and thorough explanation!

That also makes sense with respect to why the cycle times decrease when Controlled Energy Consumption is off, if the energy usage is higher and the target temperature is assured through thermostatic control then less time is needed for equivalent cleaning, even if energy consumption is increased.

I would assume that this logic is automatically defeated for sanitize cycles?

It sounds as though anybody who desires to have their laundry reach their selected temperature should set Controlled Energy Consumption to off?

There is also another setting in programming mode, “Temperature Increase” with options On or Off. Off is the default. Does anybody know what that does and how it fits into this temperature puzzle?

I think it’s also worth noting that all USA machines feature hot water fill which obviously has some bearing on this discussion.

 

[launderess]

Miele swore up and down for years they would never bring a 120v washing machine to USA. Things were always going to be 208v-240v (well 120v/208v-240v at least) or a host of reasons. That began to go by wayside for various reasons.

Don't know about 12XX washers, but 48XX, 30XX and now W1 series of washing machines all are 120v only. Indeed Miele announced a while back they no longer would sell 208v-240v washing machines in North America as part of domestic offerings. Commercial things like Little Giant washers are another matter.

All Miele 120v washer require connection to both hot and cold inlets. When set to default programming and varies by cycle washer will take in warm (as combining hot and cold), and so forth, then heat to proper temp. This is a nod to fact many North American homes have large storage tank or other means of ample hot water on demand.

Heating elements on these washers is low, IIRC W30XX are barely 1kW. You can change programming for these washers to "cold fill", but then things get interesting. Depending upon such variables as incoming tap cold water temp, set desired temp and washers' programming set temp may or may not be achieved.

To be fair older Miele washing machines have always required connecting to both hot and cold taps. If you wanted to hook them up to cold fill only, you still needed (as above) to use a "Y" connector. But those machines with 208v-240v power and heating elements at or over 2 kW could easily take tap cold water to 86F, 104F within short period of time. This even if using cycles that used more water for washing such as delicates or wool.

Hot water either filling from taps or heated by washing machine uses energy. My guess is by using hot water from taps is more about reducing work load on washing machine than anything else.

I mean with certain short cycles it just won't be possible to heat cold to very chilly tap water to say 86F or 104F using puny 1kW heating power. Well not unless you extend heating phase of cycle by using thermostop or something. Since by nature delicate and woolens cycles are for things not meant to be washed very long, there are limits.

 

[logixx]

Temp increase

According to this manual, temp increase adds 5°C to the Cotton and Minimum Iron cycles.

https://fliphtml5.com/jknmy/kxha

 

[aquacycle]

I had a Miele W562 for 10 years and it was a lovely machine. I couldn’t fault it at all. I upgraded to a W1 machine - a WCG120 XL.

BIG mistake.

It have very bizarre programming.

1. The express cycle with only 1 rinse was near useless. I don’t use it often but it’s a handy feature to have for freshening up a small load.

2. The cottons cycle was 2:44 for no fuzzy logic. If the machine sensed a smaller load, which it very rarely did, instead of adjusting the time properly like my old machine, it would default to the short option.

3. On cottons short, the rinsing was appalling. It would fill as the machine ramped down from spin but as soon as the water level was reached, it would pump out. The rinses lasted about 3 minutes. And it only did 2.

4. Minimum Iron was a much more reasonable cycle at 1:58 with 3 rinses BUT if the machine detected it had anything more than a full load in it, it would abort the cycle at the end of the main wash.

5. In the year and a half that I had it, I had Miele out to it 3 times. The first time because water was pooling on the door seal and running onto the floor when I opened the door, the second and third times were for excessive noise. See link below. It sounded like it was trying to vibrate its way into next door most of the time. And yes, the machine was level and the transit bolts were removed.

I sold both the washer and dryer and bought a Siemens set last April, which are both fabulous.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Reply #30, Siemens

Do they have a blue, or is it white, display?

Bosch machines are red digits - and nigh on impossible to read clearly with failing eyesight. I don't know why some manufacturers can't grasp that fact.

 

[ozzie908]

I have a Sharp MWO

Its impossible to read if the suns shining or the lights are on so either way its a guess what temp etc I am setting it to.

Preferred the Panasonics green/ish led's could see those in any light.

Am suffering the same as Rolls Rapide ageing eyesight is no joke.

Austin

 

[rolls_rapide]

Reply #32

Yes, green or blue, or even amber is fine. My current Slovenian Panasonic has large blue icons and digits. Very clear to see.

The previous Panasonic had a white backlit LCD screen, with black digits, if I remember rightly, and a ring of red LEDs around the programme dial. That implementation was fine too.

You'd think the manufacturers (Bosch) might conduct a 'usability test' before plonking the appliances on the market with small red displays. There must be a large number of irritated folk who have this problem - probably older folk who buy Bosch for supposed quality.

 

[aquacycle]

@rolls_rapide it’s a white display

 

[rolls_rapide]

"it’s a white display"

Thanks!

 

[hippo]

An independent Miele technician visited today for warranty service to investigate the non-functioning bleach dispenser. He rans tests on all the values and flow routes and reported them to all function perfectly. He agreed with my suspicion that the failure to dispense bleach was purely software related. He reported that he ran a firmware update on the machine but did not have time to run a cycle to test the bleach dispensing afterwards. I will try a cycle with bleaching activated tonight to see if it solves the problem.

Despite the very, very slow service from Miele's warranty department the technician was friendly, knowledgable, and helpful and I'd happily use the same company again for service.

 

[derrick352]

Still no fix for Prewash issue USA W1 WWF060, Miele will not even acknowledge the issue exists anymore. And you think they care about your bleach dispenser? Miele has serious issues and they do not care about any issues we are having with our W1's. When was this software update released? Can you verify the version changed? I would take anything they say with a grain of salt. I bet the tech didn't do anything other than lie to you and leave. My bet is he did NOTHING!

 

[hippo]

Bleach still does not dispense properly. The contents of compartment 2 are still in compartment 2 after the cycle when bleach dispensing is activated. I have so far tested Normal, Extra White, and Towels cycles.

I did notice during the Normal cycle that there was a sound of water dispensing at the correct time in the cycle (10 minutes before end of main wash block) but compartment 2 was not flushed as far as I could tell. I will test further and have also requested another warranty service visit to investigate further.

I cannot verify that a software update was indeed performed. I neglected to photograph the software version screen before the tech visit. If anybody has a non-updated WXR 860 and would like to share their software versions we can compare.

 

[mielerod69]

Bleach dispensing

Hi Hippo,
Shouldn't the bleach go in compartment 1 on the right-hand side not 2 on the left?