Modern Dishwashers

[jakeseacrest]

Either I have turned into a cranky old man or I'm just a fed up consumer. When did using an automatic dishwasher in this day and age turn into complete frustration? In my day you went to the grocery store and bought Cascade, Electrasol, Palmolive, etc and there wasn't a million different varieties to choose from...you bought your favorite brand and that was it. No pods, tabs, different scents...you chose powder or gel. You went home and ran your dishwasher and in an hour you knew you had clean, dry, and sanitized dishes. Dishwashers used gallons of water and force to clean your families dishes and not a trickle that could take 4 hours.

I don't want the EPA in my kitchen telling me that an ingredient in my dishwasher detergent is promoting algae in lakes or that in the grand scheme of energy efficiency my new dishwasher is going to take days to wash.

I don't want to have to wait until the sun and the moon align or to sacrifice an animal to the appliance gods to get dishes that don't have a powdery film.

STAY OUT OF MY LIFE AND MY KITCHEN!

 

[frigilux]

You aren't alone in your frustration with all things HE and others will add their litany to this thread.

Overall, I've not found well-chosen HE appliances to be a problem. I love my extremely frugal front-loading washer (2010 Frigidaire) and dishwasher (2014 GE). Both do an excellent job of cleaning, albeit with longer cycle times than the vintage appliances I grew up with in the 1960s-70s.

1. Greater choices in dishwasher detergents: You're welcome to purchase the powder or gel you like. I prefer tabs/pacs for both laundry and dishes. It seems there are a dozen versions of every brand and I find the mania for specific scents in dishwasher detergents ridiculous; but since you know what you prefer, zero-in on that and ignore the rest. My new daily driver is Member's Mark Ultimate Clean Pacs, which is, refreshingly, available in only one version, LOL.

2. Cycle times: You're right; they're definitely longer than the 30-60 minute cycles on vintage machines. My 2014 GE has a Normal cycle time of 1 hour + 51 minutes with temp boost. This cleans even most pots/pans well. I use the Normal cycle without temp boost for most loads as my water heater is set at 140 degrees. That brings cycle time down to 1 hour + 15 minutes. Most machines also offer Light (49 minutes on mine) and Quick/Express (30 minutes) cycles that do a great job on less demanding loads. Having said that, when I BobLoad the GE with cookware containing baked/burned/fried-on soils and choose the Heavy Cycle + Pre-Soak + Sanitize options, the time jumps to 3 hours + 28 minutes. However, everything comes out completely clean. That wasn't the case with my 1985 TOL KitchenAid "hurricane-in-a-box" on its much shorter Pots/Pans cycle.

3. EPA: You have to take the good (Remember what the air looked like in large cities in 1963? I do.) with the bad (longer cycle times for washers/dishwashers). I live in a state with 10,000 lakes, so the alge issue is relevant. Both laundry and dishwasher detergent formulas have improved since the phosphate bans, and I have no major complaints with either of them.

I have my own beefs with HE---don't get me started on what I think of impeller-based top-load washers---but quite honestly, I'm very happy with every energy/water-saving device (including toilets) in my house.[this post was last edited: 2/7/2015-05:29]

 

[henene4]

I really don't get the hate about HE systems. Either the US has totally different appliances than we here in the EU (which is not the case for sure), you're detergent manufactureres are not abled to do anything right (which I doubt) or you might be just a little picky.
I can understand that 4 hours for a load of laundry to wash only can be annoying. And not clean laundry can just be as well. But raveing about a washer that might take an hour and a half instead of half an hour, but uses about half the water for a load twice as big is just not up to date. Simply said: Times change. And they have changed. Have you adapted?
We here in Germany have no phosphate ban. We still use our 30% phosphate DW detergent. But we invested in systems to keep these phosphates out of our water.
We in Germany had DWs with 1 hour cycle time as well. That was about 20 years ago. Or more. Now, we have DWs that can take up to 4 hours as well. But if one knows little about the DW he&#92she uses, you'll probably settle for something like an Automatic cycle. Takes a maximum of 2:30 for example, but can take only 1 hour as well. But you will never have to deal with not enough cleaning power. Our waste of water and energy.
Our washers here today estimate about 2:45 for a full load on a normal - not standard - cycle. That's about twice as much as 20 years ago. But our washers now wash about twice as much laundry cleaner than 20 years ago. And use about 3/4 the water and energy.
Fact is: Yeah. Laundry has changed. Dishwashing has changed. Both take longer. Both have more querks today.
But basicly, they are more efficent, better at cleaning, more flexible, more adapting and - overall - more up to date.

 

[washer111]

I imagine the Dishwasher we use, a DishDrawer would fall into similar water usage categories as an American machine - since if you use both drawers on a Heavy or Delicate cycle, you've used 5.3 gallons of water to accomplish that (Single wash and triple rinsing).

The cycle for Delicates is 60 minutes and cleans practically every, including dishes used to cook lasagne (which have been cooked in) acceptable. Using the longer, hotter cycles completely removes the need to clean filters, so we tend to mix between Heavy and Delicates as needed.
Bearing in mind, Delicate is a 122º wash and 140º rinse with a 700w heater.

This year, the DishDrawer will be 4 years old, and it hasn't produced bad results except where user error was the cause.

As for our washer, we're happy with our 2.5 year old Miele W5741.
It uses far less water than the washer that proceeded it (A Simpson/Electrolux plastic, POS machine), washes clothes far more gently, and produces far better results. The big thing here is that we can wash 4-5 loads when we have a big cleanup, and not run out of softened water like we used to with the TL machine. Saves having to regenerate the system an extra time, saving water, salt usage and salt being placed into the environment.

As Eugene (Frigilux) said, its more about choosing what you buy rather than just walking into a store and picking "XXX Dishwahser" or "YYY Clothes Washer." Make an informed decision, and I believe you won't have complaints.

 

[washerdude]

When we got our new kenmore HE dishwasher, I was pretty skeptical I will say that much. But it does a great job. Lately, its been hovering at 1 hour and 57 minutes on normal with sani rinse enabled. We have a new HE front load, I'm really happy with its results, it cleans better then our old one in just under 45 minutes. But I do agree when a job can be done under a certain ammount of time which then goes on for hours and hours can get a little frustarating. Our new water saver toilets have been serving us well since they day they were installed and never clogged. Sure they have their ups and downs. I'm my self not a fan of HE top loaders, But at the end of the day, Im really happy with the HE performance overall.

 

[rp2813]

Dishwashers

After frustrating experiences with the Thundering Thermador and the ISE Classic Supreme that replaced it, mainly due to their needs for phosphated detergent to get the job done (well, even phosphates couldn't help the Thermador most of the time), upon the recommendation from a highly knowledgeable source here on AW, I ended up with a late model Miele we came across at the local ReStore and I have never, ever looked back.

 

The Miele may take twice as long to process a load of dishes, but it is by far the most capable dishwasher I've ever owned or used.  I mean it.  And it does best when provided with phosphate-free detergent. 

 

I'm no longer fretting about being on my last box of phosphated Cascade.  I'm no longer annoyed by spotty glassware (with a dose of just 1 ml. of rinse aid by the Miele and water here is fairly hard) or not quite clean casserole dishes.   I can also hear the TV in the breakfast room or have a telephone conversation while standing right in front of the machine while it's running.  It's virtually silent.

 

I was a vintage KitchenAid die-hard for years.  Not anymore.  In the end, it's about clean dishes and not having to re-do them, and the Miele delivers.  Add to that the fact that we're in a severe drought here in California, and the Miele's low water use affords guilt-free washing, even with a not quite full load. 

 

Eugene is right.  Not everything about HE is bad.

 

[ea56]

We just replaced our 10 year old Maytag MOL dishwasher last month with a GE GDF5204PDG and it is GREAT. The old Maytag never did clean very well and it took 135 mins for the normal cycle, no heated dry. The coffee mugs always had stains left in them and there was always at least 1 or 2 salad bowls that didn't get completely clean. The racks had already started to rust, just after it hit the 5 year mark and was out of warranty. I had been using Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs and Jet Dry. The new GE takes exactly the same 135 mins. for the normal cycle with temp boost., no heated dry The dishes are completely dry after about 3 mins with the door open after the cycle ends. The dishes are all sparkling clean with the same Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs, pots and pans too. And the new GE is very quiet too. When we first bought the house 20 years ago it had a BOL Whirlpool from 1991. It would complete the heavy cycle in about 80 to 90 mins. But it sounded like a freight train and the racks were all rusted by 2005. All in all I am very pleased with this new GE. But I am with you about the HE topload washers with an impleller. These are real POS! There isn't enough time to say just how disappointed I was with the Whirlpool Cabrio that we had for 15 long months.[this post was last edited: 2/7/2015-18:41]

 

[jerrod6]

Henene4

Part of the problem might be that the USA DOES have totally different machines than you have.

We have dishwashers that use 105F water temps for their wash. How about yours, are they using this temp to clean a normal load?

We have dishwashers that only do 1 rinse after the wash.

We have dishwashers with 110 volt heaters that stop heating after a certain period of time so that they never reach the desired temperature. Our dishwashers cannot heat water from cold to hot, so we have to waste water by running the hot water tap at a sink close to the DW to prime them with hot water. How many Euro models act like this?

We have dishwashers that deliver a high temp wash that is 120F. This is high temp? You have this?

We have dishwashers with motors that deliver a water stream that looks like a lawn sprinkler. It's so bad that they have to stop then restart, several times during the program so that there is a sudden burst of water to spray the dishes. How many Eu models deliver this kind of water pressure?

We have different energy star requirements that limit the amount of water that can be used in any cycle. I've seen some videos of Eu washers rinsing with water up to the door. Here if the water gets that high the machine will drain it and end the cycle.

Poster RP2813 likes his dishwasher - except that it is a Euro model made by Miele, something that most people in the USA are not going to buy because they must be floated over the ocean increasing their cost, and then you cannot find just anyone to repair them so you must plan for that in advance or not be able to have one. We have Bosch, but they are Bosch made for and in the USA and so do not operate the same as the models that are available to you.

So I think the USA just might have different machines than you do.
Not saying what is good or bad, but they are different.

 

[washman]

Simply put

another classic case of the goobermint sticking its ugly nose where it does not belong.

Because my algore approved GE cannot heat water high enough to properly dissolve my ubiquitous cascade paks, I have to turn up the water heater to the point that it is borderline scald danger.

Used to be I could do just fine with a box of Electrasol (Finish) for 2.79, 80 ounces worth, and it lasted a good while and cleaned everything.

Now I have to buy expensive cascade paks. The GE simply will not clean well with any other brand. I tried them all. And lo and behold, GE DOES recommend the Cascade paks.

Go figure.

Nearly 3 hours on the "normal" wash cycle and the dishes still come out wet as a sponge.

When I hear eco, green, environmentally friendly, the following thoughts enter:
*It won't clean as well.
*It will cost more money
*the appliance will not last as long as machines of yore.
*the appliance itself will certainly cost more than an old school machine.
*It will not be cost effective to repair

But it makes the greenies happy and they can all dance a jig while eating fig newtons and sipping tea while they discuss their next invasion of my privacy.

I could live with this, to a point, IF the demand came from the consumer OR someone out there built a better mousetrap. But to have arbitrary regulations laid down without any regard to the person who has to use these infernal things is just plain wrong, stupid, and intrusive.

 

[appnut]

I have to admit there are a few times where I do wish the dishwasher was faster than the 2:05 it takes for a wash and heat4ed dry.  If I use Pots & Pans and Sani Rinse option, it's anywhere from 2:56 to 3:13.  But it uses less water than the GSD1200 did.  Water is for me expensive here and I live in a pretty arid area, even though there's a lake 5 minutes away that was set up by LBJ when he was in Congress in the 1940s.  The lake was finished in the mid 1950s.  I do wish I had the option of choosing whether it runs in the time amounts it currently does or to select an option whereby the motor speeds up considerably and throws water around like old machines.  98% I'm very pleased with my almost 8 year old Kenmore Elite's performance.  I watch my water consumption during the billing months of January through March because that's when my sewer and water rates are set for the year.  And trust me, 100 of usage can make a difference if I have to keep it at 2000 or less gallons a month for those 3 months.  I actually think my Duet front loader cleans far better than any old fashioned agitator washer and my clothes and other textiles are lasting longer.  And the bonus is it does not use dumb downed temperatures.  And I can keep my water heater at 120 degrees on the Whirlpool water heater on Smart Mode.  All except for items that are done on delicate, all cycles I use implement the supplemental heater to maintain or raise water temperatures.  My dish loads are always dirty enough that the higher performance intelligent settings are selected and higher wash temperatures are used.  All this does keep my operating costs down, which helps as I operate on monthly expenses. 

 

[henene4]

@jerrod6

well, you don NOT have totally different machines.
Take Electrolux: Same interior (spray arms, racks, filter system and tank), simmilar capable inner parts (the heater is smaller, though the pump is about the exact same, just as well is the sensor set).
Miele is an almost 1-1 copy.
Whirlpool does differ, but main features are simmilar.
Samsung offers a free standing water wall DW here in Germany.
So to concretly answer your questions:
1. Yes. That is an temperature used on Eco cycles.
2. We have, as well. But as the storage-tank system comes up round here, the number of single rinsers reduced drasticly.
3. I'll give you that point. But being honest: I doubt that any modern DW uses purley timed heating, and to be more honest, I doubt you would get a lot of heating time outs on a modern machine. Simply because, well, you have maximum fills of 1 gallon, if ever.
4. I never saw a US DW without SaniRinse option. And Sanitation approval needs temperatures beyond 140°F. And on a purely enzyme based detergent with oxigen bleaching contens, 120°F is about the efficent bleaching temp range. And connected with 105° standard temp: Said, you don't have phosphates any more, you need to use enzymes, which, guess what, are ineffective at anything beyond 110°F.
5. We don't. But you don't have either for that reason. At least I do not belive you until you proof me that they ever start and stop and if they do, they do it to get water pressure. Ever heared of soaking - a verry efficent way of cleaning with enzymes!
6. Well, washers are a storry. But have ever seen an German LG? We use that much water. But NEVER on standard cycles. Only on certain cycles and load situations. And keep in mind your washers are 2-3 times bigger, and are usually loaded with about as much laundry. And what you think of is the over flow protection feature.

 

[jakeseacrest]

Part of my frustration has to do with the lack of choices currently available for portable dishwashers. This year I definitely will need a new one sooner than later as the Maytag from 1998 is making a slow decline. If Maytag still had portables on the market I wouldn't have a problem, but all I have for new ones are Whirlpool and Kenmore. Neither of them appeal to me. They both have filters, low target wash temps, long wash times and ridiculous prices ($600+) for an essentially middle of the line model. Whirlpool,I believe, may have only one rinse after the main wash which has never appealed to the OCD side of me.

I do have a spare Kitchen Aid KDC60A that has a massive leak from underneath somewhere, but I'm not mechanically inclined nor do I want to spend money for an appliance repairman to fix a 30 year old machine.

Craigslist has been useless in my area lately too. Nothing even remotely good is jumping out.

 

[appnut]

Michael, pretty slim pickins.  Ugh!!!  Sears even removed the advantage of nylon racks over the comparable whirlpool.   Can we help you keep an eye out for a used portable in good condition in your area? 

 

[pierreandreply4]

jakeseacrest

i would start checkig sites like craiglist ebay and for estate sales in your area and this forum

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-INDEX_DISPLAY.cgi?SHP

For a good vintage portable dishwasher brands like lady kenmore kitchenaid older maytag dishwashers to name a few and the advantage of some models you can convert from portable to built in credit to other members of aw who pictures i am posting as exemple

 

[washer111]

In my experience, the EU dishwasher in particular are heating the water far, far hotter than what i'm reading about here from the US-originating machines. 

Its due to the limitations in current for U.S. machines, in addition to the fact that the EnergyStar rating is based on electrical usage to heat the water, too, so if a machine was heating that water properly to around 140, it would get a slap on the wrist for doing so. 

 

Temperatures in the hot range should not affect modern detergents, and will certainly help on very greasy loads by dissolving/emulsifying much of the grease present. 

 

If you compared the energy usage on a regular *auto* cycle between a U.S. and E.U. style machine, I think the European model would use much more electricity, and probably much less water. They probably won't take nearly 3hrs either. 

 

[askolover]

I've found several portables on CL here in the Nashville, TN area as well as Chattanooga, TN and Huntsville, AL.  I've considered finding one for my mother-in-law.  Seen a few Maytags with the same innards that my 17 year old one has and I cannot complain about its performance at all!

 

[henene4]

washer111

Yeah, we have hotter cycles. But you do so as well. But for example, Mieles Eco-Cycle clocks in at 47°C, so round about 110-115°F. Electrolux lists its A+++ Eco cycles in Europe as 50°C, so a good 120°F. My brother owns an A++ model, and even this dosen't reach this temperarture properly as far as I tested.
And on the 140° topic: Just scroll to the verry bottom...
http://www.nsf.org/services/by-type/standards-publications/home-products-protocols-standards/
On Auto cycles: The BSH (Bosch and Siemens) Auto cycle clocks in at a start time of 2:45, with time ranges from 1h up to 3 1/2 depending on load and options, and usages from 0,6 to something like 1.5 kWh and water from 6 to I think 15l. The estimated annual consumption of the TOL Bosch DW in the US and the EU are about on par.
E-Lux estimates a maximum of 2 1/2 h without options, but times can be cut down to 40 minutes. Water goes 6-14l, and power consumption is about on par with Bosch. The US BestBuy dishwashers manual does indeed differ and estimates 2-3 1/2h of time with 3 to 7,4 gallons of water use. Doing some math, the water usage can get quite a bit higher, but may be just as low. And cycle times are indeed longer.

 

[mrb627]

Miele

My only complaint about my Miele dishwasher is it likes to remove the measurements from my Pyrex in very few washes.

Wish is didn't clean so well...

Malcolm

 

[henene4]

Well...

Malcolm, I am somehow sad about this. I don't know why, but I am just... baffeled.
But back to serious: Maybe your detergent contains to much bleach. Are these even labeled DW safe?