Moffat 1960`s Brochure
moffat cooker
- Thread starter peterlondon
- Start date
Moffat 1960`s Brochure
Moffat 1960`s Brochure
Moffat 1960`s Brochure
Moffat 1960`s Brochure
Moffat E95
It was the E95 that my friends mum had, just loved those dial controls, interesting how they quote High Level Grill, when many others quoted Eye Level Grill......
Enjoy the brochure, Mike
It was the E95 that my friends mum had, just loved those dial controls, interesting how they quote High Level Grill, when many others quoted Eye Level Grill......
Enjoy the brochure, Mike
Moffat Brochure
Mike
Thanks for posting that absolutly cracking Moffat brochure, that will be heading to my hard drive once i get home
- absolutly brilliant
From the look of it the E95 is the ancestor of Pete's Fiesta 24, and I was about to speculate as the whether it was manufactured in the UK or not but I notice on the close-ups of the E75 the elelemt is on the bottom. I suppose "E" signifies electric as they also made gas cooker too.
Interesting to see how it was almost on the cusp of kitchen design, with the 75 and to an extent the 95 signposting the way things were going to be.
Al
Mike
Thanks for posting that absolutly cracking Moffat brochure, that will be heading to my hard drive once i get home
- absolutly brilliantFrom the look of it the E95 is the ancestor of Pete's Fiesta 24, and I was about to speculate as the whether it was manufactured in the UK or not but I notice on the close-ups of the E75 the elelemt is on the bottom. I suppose "E" signifies electric as they also made gas cooker too.
Interesting to see how it was almost on the cusp of kitchen design, with the 75 and to an extent the 95 signposting the way things were going to be.
Al
Are rotisserie equipped stoves still somewhat common over there in the UK? I can't think of any still being sold over here. Nor can you find any ovens with a temp probe any longer that I know of.. (which I think is a useful feature and why I'll eventually hate to give up on my KA)
revvinkevin
Well-known member
Peter, WELCOME to AW.org!
Peter, congrats on Moffet cooker! Neat, clean design, it looks to be in really nice condition and such a great price, wow!
(interesting how they're called "cookers" in the UK and a "stove" or "range" over here)
~ Mike, thank you for posting the Moffet brochure, it's very neat to see how some of the designs differ slightly between countries. And... I love the way they set up the models. Can you imagine cooking a big meal in a nice cocktail dress, heels, full make up and hair like the model in reply #63? LOL
I really like the size and look of the stove pictured in reply #22 by vacbear58. Neat design and having the ability to adjust the oven rack height by turning the knobs, very cool! I also think the cooker he posted in reply #33 is very, VERY interesting! I have NEVER seen a "stove" with such a small upper "oven" like that! It looks like a toaster oven!
Questions: Are the upper ovens on these usable as ovens or are they only a rotisserie or broiler? Also, are all the upper doors stainless or do you have any with a glass door? All the ones we have here with an upper oven are larger and usually had a see-thru glass door. However I don't think they had the ability to rotiss.
~ Petek, I believe the upper-end / high-end ranges here have rotisserie in them. I have a Miele oven (what I consider "high-end") that's convention and has a rotisserie. Hmm, it is European tho.......
Kevin
Peter, congrats on Moffet cooker! Neat, clean design, it looks to be in really nice condition and such a great price, wow!
(interesting how they're called "cookers" in the UK and a "stove" or "range" over here)
~ Mike, thank you for posting the Moffet brochure, it's very neat to see how some of the designs differ slightly between countries. And... I love the way they set up the models. Can you imagine cooking a big meal in a nice cocktail dress, heels, full make up and hair like the model in reply #63? LOL
I really like the size and look of the stove pictured in reply #22 by vacbear58. Neat design and having the ability to adjust the oven rack height by turning the knobs, very cool! I also think the cooker he posted in reply #33 is very, VERY interesting! I have NEVER seen a "stove" with such a small upper "oven" like that! It looks like a toaster oven!
Questions: Are the upper ovens on these usable as ovens or are they only a rotisserie or broiler? Also, are all the upper doors stainless or do you have any with a glass door? All the ones we have here with an upper oven are larger and usually had a see-thru glass door. However I don't think they had the ability to rotiss.
~ Petek, I believe the upper-end / high-end ranges here have rotisserie in them. I have a Miele oven (what I consider "high-end") that's convention and has a rotisserie. Hmm, it is European tho.......
Kevin
Rotesserie
Pete
There might be the odd one or two built in ovens which have them, and actually we do have some builts ins (or normally built under) which are wider than the normal 60cm (24") wide oven - I think they are more common in those. But it is something you hardly ever see.
I would say the last cooker with an eye level ovenette/rotesserie we had would have been the Creda/Jackson that Mike posted in reply 51 and I am reasonaly sure these went out of production in the mid to late 1980s. Its a shame because for many people who are tall like me they were a very good design option - not haveing to bend to use the grill/broiler, the main oven nice and high and a storage drawer (at one time these would have been heated too) underneath.
I believe there were two factors to eventually kill them off - one was the wisespread adoption of seperate hob and oven arrangement with a wall oven set under the counter and the other was a variation of this, the free standing cooker with no splashback, and controls arranged across the front edge of the cooker so it looked built in. Both these arrngements were widespread throughout Europe but were not adopted here (mostly) until the mid 1980s onward. The Belling Format, launched here in around 1979, was our homegrown version of this.
I was surprised, and a bit horrified, to see when I visited Canada in 2010 that some ranges there were adopting this layout with a second, smaller oven/broiler above the main oven. I would literally have to get on my hands and knees to see how things were progressing in the oven - and no way am I doing that.
Belling Format below
Pete
There might be the odd one or two built in ovens which have them, and actually we do have some builts ins (or normally built under) which are wider than the normal 60cm (24") wide oven - I think they are more common in those. But it is something you hardly ever see.
I would say the last cooker with an eye level ovenette/rotesserie we had would have been the Creda/Jackson that Mike posted in reply 51 and I am reasonaly sure these went out of production in the mid to late 1980s. Its a shame because for many people who are tall like me they were a very good design option - not haveing to bend to use the grill/broiler, the main oven nice and high and a storage drawer (at one time these would have been heated too) underneath.
I believe there were two factors to eventually kill them off - one was the wisespread adoption of seperate hob and oven arrangement with a wall oven set under the counter and the other was a variation of this, the free standing cooker with no splashback, and controls arranged across the front edge of the cooker so it looked built in. Both these arrngements were widespread throughout Europe but were not adopted here (mostly) until the mid 1980s onward. The Belling Format, launched here in around 1979, was our homegrown version of this.
I was surprised, and a bit horrified, to see when I visited Canada in 2010 that some ranges there were adopting this layout with a second, smaller oven/broiler above the main oven. I would literally have to get on my hands and knees to see how things were progressing in the oven - and no way am I doing that.
Belling Format below
Gosh, this is getting to be a long thread
Kevin
The cooker in reply #33 does not have an upper oven at all, it is simply an open compartment for the broiler - we would call this an "eye-level" grill - most commonly seen on UK gas cookers (or we call them stoves too, there is even a brand called "Stoves" and very good they are too) but also on some electric too.
As regards the high level "ovenettes" it was a matter of evolution - origionally they were just broilers with a rotesserie under and perhaps a low power element for warming - not thermostatically controlled. Both the Moffats and the Jackson would have been like this, and the earliest versions of the Jackson did indeed have a drop down glass door - later side opening black glass.
I suppose it would have been towards the middle of the 1970s that definatly the Jackson/Creda and, I think Pete's Moffat, got a proper, thermostatically controlled Oven/Broiler combination. (UK)Pete's Moffat also had the "Roast Meter" which placed it very TOL above the Jackson/Creda, although it later had a fan oven as the main oven, which to me personally is the bigger advantage.
Al
Kevin
The cooker in reply #33 does not have an upper oven at all, it is simply an open compartment for the broiler - we would call this an "eye-level" grill - most commonly seen on UK gas cookers (or we call them stoves too, there is even a brand called "Stoves" and very good they are too) but also on some electric too.
As regards the high level "ovenettes" it was a matter of evolution - origionally they were just broilers with a rotesserie under and perhaps a low power element for warming - not thermostatically controlled. Both the Moffats and the Jackson would have been like this, and the earliest versions of the Jackson did indeed have a drop down glass door - later side opening black glass.
I suppose it would have been towards the middle of the 1970s that definatly the Jackson/Creda and, I think Pete's Moffat, got a proper, thermostatically controlled Oven/Broiler combination. (UK)Pete's Moffat also had the "Roast Meter" which placed it very TOL above the Jackson/Creda, although it later had a fan oven as the main oven, which to me personally is the bigger advantage.
Al
revvinkevin
Well-known member
Long threads are a good thing!
Thank you for the info Al!
Yes I see how having a rotisserie/broiler at eye level would be an advantage. It almost seems like broilers are becoming a thing of the past here too, but I could be completely off the mark here.
I'm assuming convection ovens (fan ovens) are a lot more common in the UK / Europe then the US, because they tend to only be in the upper-end models here.
Below is the Miele Novotronic oven I have. I was fortunate enough to find this on the damaged / discounted table a few years ago. The door glass was broken and they'd marked the price from nearly $2900 down to $500! The new door assembly (3 layers of glass) cost $300, so more then a $2000 discount! YAY!
Thank you for the info Al!
Yes I see how having a rotisserie/broiler at eye level would be an advantage. It almost seems like broilers are becoming a thing of the past here too, but I could be completely off the mark here.
I'm assuming convection ovens (fan ovens) are a lot more common in the UK / Europe then the US, because they tend to only be in the upper-end models here.
Below is the Miele Novotronic oven I have. I was fortunate enough to find this on the damaged / discounted table a few years ago. The door glass was broken and they'd marked the price from nearly $2900 down to $500! The new door assembly (3 layers of glass) cost $300, so more then a $2000 discount! YAY!
revvinkevin
Well-known member
Also.......
I don't know what to think about these 30" width ranges with the "double ovens", other then the main (only real oven) is just way too low! I agree with you, I don't want to be getting down on my hands and knees to access or view what's happening in there. I pulled this image off the Whirlpool website (there are plenty of other brands like this too). But from what I could see on the specs page of the site, the upper "ovenette" (I like that) does not have the ability to be used as a broiler. Also it's way too small to even think about putting a usable rotisserie in there.
I can see how having two ovens would be advantages, but give me to FULL SIZED wall ovens and make them convection, thank you very much!
Kevin
I don't know what to think about these 30" width ranges with the "double ovens", other then the main (only real oven) is just way too low! I agree with you, I don't want to be getting down on my hands and knees to access or view what's happening in there. I pulled this image off the Whirlpool website (there are plenty of other brands like this too). But from what I could see on the specs page of the site, the upper "ovenette" (I like that) does not have the ability to be used as a broiler. Also it's way too small to even think about putting a usable rotisserie in there.
I can see how having two ovens would be advantages, but give me to FULL SIZED wall ovens and make them convection, thank you very much!
Kevin
I hear ya Al on those stoves with the little oven above the regular oven. I think Maytag brought them out first but even I was thinking I don't know what I'd do if my back went out (which is does occasionally). There's no way I could reach down that far and also,, what if I was ok and reaching down into a hot oven and that was the time my back decided to go out..could be painful.
I still don't get why induction stoves are not being pushed here. In fact I was in our Sears recently and didn't see one this time,, only the cooktop.. Not one in our Lowes which just opened, not one in the Lowes across the river in Michigan either. None of the big furniture stores here which have large appliance section carry them . Only one store here had one,, a Samsung with 3 induction elements and one regular element.
I still don't get why induction stoves are not being pushed here. In fact I was in our Sears recently and didn't see one this time,, only the cooktop.. Not one in our Lowes which just opened, not one in the Lowes across the river in Michigan either. None of the big furniture stores here which have large appliance section carry them . Only one store here had one,, a Samsung with 3 induction elements and one regular element.
RevvinKevin!
That's a very similar Miele model to the one I have. I got mine 3 years old -- not damaged but the electronic ones had come out and there was no demand for these. I prefer these to the MasterChef ones, and I got mine for $1300, which was a 2/3 savings at the time.
Rotisserie ovens ARE available here in a FEW high end ovens but ... not really.
Are they still popular in Europe at all?
That's a very similar Miele model to the one I have. I got mine 3 years old -- not damaged but the electronic ones had come out and there was no demand for these. I prefer these to the MasterChef ones, and I got mine for $1300, which was a 2/3 savings at the time.
Rotisserie ovens ARE available here in a FEW high end ovens but ... not really.
Are they still popular in Europe at all?
peterlondon
Well-known member
moff pics
Mike,thank you so much for posting,fantastic, Hi kevin,many thanks.
I gotta tell you guys I am in absolute awe,and many thanks again to whoever set this site up,without which some of us in the uk would never see what you lucky Americans (ans canadians) have had.
I am so yearning for something more classic.
Al,this moff has an ovenette which is pre-set at 150degs (and keeps perfect temp.as does the oven) I assume this feature was for slow cooking before slow cookers themselves became popular here? Am I right thing the creda top oven is an actual oven? I did at one stage live in spain where gas,because cheap is the popular choice.The first appt had only had 15amps for everything,so as you imagine electric cooking was a no-no.I did eventually get upgraded to a whole 30amps!
so I could cook and use the dishwasher at the same time.....impressed or what!
Mike,thank you so much for posting,fantastic, Hi kevin,many thanks.
I gotta tell you guys I am in absolute awe,and many thanks again to whoever set this site up,without which some of us in the uk would never see what you lucky Americans (ans canadians) have had.
I am so yearning for something more classic.
Al,this moff has an ovenette which is pre-set at 150degs (and keeps perfect temp.as does the oven) I assume this feature was for slow cooking before slow cookers themselves became popular here? Am I right thing the creda top oven is an actual oven? I did at one stage live in spain where gas,because cheap is the popular choice.The first appt had only had 15amps for everything,so as you imagine electric cooking was a no-no.I did eventually get upgraded to a whole 30amps!
so I could cook and use the dishwasher at the same time.....impressed or what!
peterlondon
Well-known member
just a little chuckle
If I had brought this stove to spain it would have consumed the allowance for the whole house,but then again,using next doors fridge,and candles I guess I could have coped!
If I had brought this stove to spain it would have consumed the allowance for the whole house,but then again,using next doors fridge,and candles I guess I could have coped!
Ovenette
(UK)Pete
Thnaks for the clarification on the Moffat, I had always assumed that it was fully thermostatic control, I presume you mean 150F rather than 150C.
The later version Jackson/Creda does have a fully thermostatic ovenette, from the time when the controls were arranged in a single line along the top. I will need to have a closer look later, but on a quick look last night I am not entirely sure it still has the rotesserie though.
Some of our Italian members have posted about limitations on electricity supplys coming into houses and when on holiday in Spain I have seen how little electrical capacity there can be when faced with 1KW water heaters. I know the incoming temperature of the (cold) water is probably higher but you soon learn that, when showering you turn the water off while soaping and a bath is almost out of the question!
Kevin
LOVE your Miele oven, although I must confess I am something of a miele nut myself, I would have liked to have got a Miele myself when I replaced my standard oven recently but it would have been at least 3 times the price (and could have easily been even more!) of the Neff oven I chose.
All but the very cheapest ovens here come with a fan oven although the option is often given for non fan top/botton heat as well, and in more up market models combinations of both. Non fan cooking is supposed to be better for baking but I must say I have never seen any difference and I prefer to have a fan oven with consistant heat throughout all the shelves.
(Can)Pete
I actually had a look in both Sears and The Bay when in Vancouver and was quite impressed to see several induction models then, but I guess the "need to buy special pans" (by and large a myth) may be putting people off them. Built in induction tops are becoming a lot more common here and a great deal cheaper too. They are not often seen in standard sized cookers but are becoming a lot more common in what we call range cookers (usually around 900mm or wider with two ovens side by side) - they are also becoming very popular in commercial applications.
Al
It was there I also saw the "double oven"
(UK)Pete
Thnaks for the clarification on the Moffat, I had always assumed that it was fully thermostatic control, I presume you mean 150F rather than 150C.
The later version Jackson/Creda does have a fully thermostatic ovenette, from the time when the controls were arranged in a single line along the top. I will need to have a closer look later, but on a quick look last night I am not entirely sure it still has the rotesserie though.
Some of our Italian members have posted about limitations on electricity supplys coming into houses and when on holiday in Spain I have seen how little electrical capacity there can be when faced with 1KW water heaters. I know the incoming temperature of the (cold) water is probably higher but you soon learn that, when showering you turn the water off while soaping and a bath is almost out of the question!
Kevin
LOVE your Miele oven, although I must confess I am something of a miele nut myself, I would have liked to have got a Miele myself when I replaced my standard oven recently but it would have been at least 3 times the price (and could have easily been even more!) of the Neff oven I chose.
All but the very cheapest ovens here come with a fan oven although the option is often given for non fan top/botton heat as well, and in more up market models combinations of both. Non fan cooking is supposed to be better for baking but I must say I have never seen any difference and I prefer to have a fan oven with consistant heat throughout all the shelves.
(Can)Pete
I actually had a look in both Sears and The Bay when in Vancouver and was quite impressed to see several induction models then, but I guess the "need to buy special pans" (by and large a myth) may be putting people off them. Built in induction tops are becoming a lot more common here and a great deal cheaper too. They are not often seen in standard sized cookers but are becoming a lot more common in what we call range cookers (usually around 900mm or wider with two ovens side by side) - they are also becoming very popular in commercial applications.
Al
It was there I also saw the "double oven"
revvinkevin
Well-known member
Al,
I have to say I have gotten spoiled by this Miele oven! It has so many different and VERY useful features, I just LOVE it! Unfortunately It’s not installed in my kitchen, I have it set up in my pantry / laundry room. I’d have to remodel in order to have it in the kitchen. But hey, it works perfectly where it is and I don’t mind walking a few extra feet to get to it.
Pete(London),
The man who created this website, our webmaster is the Robert (Unimatic1140). He’s a really great guy with an incredible collection and a huge amount of knowledge about the older (US) washing machines!
The link below is video I shot while attending the Wash-In Robert & Fred hosted in May, 2010.
Kevin
http://www.youtube.com/revvinkev#p/u/2/NniJzo5J3cg
I have to say I have gotten spoiled by this Miele oven! It has so many different and VERY useful features, I just LOVE it! Unfortunately It’s not installed in my kitchen, I have it set up in my pantry / laundry room. I’d have to remodel in order to have it in the kitchen. But hey, it works perfectly where it is and I don’t mind walking a few extra feet to get to it.
Pete(London),
The man who created this website, our webmaster is the Robert (Unimatic1140). He’s a really great guy with an incredible collection and a huge amount of knowledge about the older (US) washing machines!
The link below is video I shot while attending the Wash-In Robert & Fred hosted in May, 2010.
Kevin
http://www.youtube.com/revvinkev#p/u/2/NniJzo5J3cg
Moffat Built in
Kevin
Apologies for the delay in responding, last week was a weel from hell workwise and I was two shades of green - partly over the oven and partly over the pantry/laundry room - you guys are lucky to have so much space. Anyway, I have decided that jolly green giant is not a good look on me, so moving on .....
I posted a link above to an ebay ad for a Moffat oven, well here it is ....
Kevin
Apologies for the delay in responding, last week was a weel from hell workwise and I was two shades of green - partly over the oven and partly over the pantry/laundry room - you guys are lucky to have so much space. Anyway, I have decided that jolly green giant is not a good look on me, so moving on .....
I posted a link above to an ebay ad for a Moffat oven, well here it is ....
Brace yourself - its a big 'un
Not half, I thougght it would have fitted in the back of my hatchback as I just recently had quite a large dryer in there - WRONG! So I had a 12 mile journey home with the back door of the car tied down and me hoping for the best. Inspite of having to drive up one or two rather steep hills all was well.
I had neither time or energy to wire it up, and as it was stored outside (under cover) there are a lot of dust and cob webs on it. I did clean up the exterior though - as my mother would have said "it had the dirt of years".
Here is the inside of the oven - the "stay clean" linings were not at all bad given that its 40+ years old. It is unusual to have a stay clean panel for the floor, those were normally vitreous enamel. I could not find a ratings plate but this was definatly manufactured in the UK. There is no fan in this even (did not expect one) but it does have a roasting meter - very unusual and it will be interesting to try it out
Not half, I thougght it would have fitted in the back of my hatchback as I just recently had quite a large dryer in there - WRONG! So I had a 12 mile journey home with the back door of the car tied down and me hoping for the best. Inspite of having to drive up one or two rather steep hills all was well.
I had neither time or energy to wire it up, and as it was stored outside (under cover) there are a lot of dust and cob webs on it. I did clean up the exterior though - as my mother would have said "it had the dirt of years".
Here is the inside of the oven - the "stay clean" linings were not at all bad given that its 40+ years old. It is unusual to have a stay clean panel for the floor, those were normally vitreous enamel. I could not find a ratings plate but this was definatly manufactured in the UK. There is no fan in this even (did not expect one) but it does have a roasting meter - very unusual and it will be interesting to try it out
Temperature
Just noticed that the roast meter appears to be in centigrade but the oven temperatures are in Fahrenheit - that would have been the custom at this time.
Here is the oven interior, only one shelf remains unfortunatly - it weighs a ton
Just noticed that the roast meter appears to be in centigrade but the oven temperatures are in Fahrenheit - that would have been the custom at this time.
Here is the oven interior, only one shelf remains unfortunatly - it weighs a ton
Elements
Now this gives me an oppertunity to demonstrate the difference between British and US ovens of that time. The side panels hang on rails and the elemenets are behind them - one on each side. This was how all electric ovens were at that time unless they had a fan, although even then I suspect they used the same panels but with no elements behind them
Now this gives me an oppertunity to demonstrate the difference between British and US ovens of that time. The side panels hang on rails and the elemenets are behind them - one on each side. This was how all electric ovens were at that time unless they had a fan, although even then I suspect they used the same panels but with no elements behind them
Al, what do you figure was the reason for having two elements along the side as opposed to one on the bottom? Conventional wisdom being that heat rises and all that but since an oven interior is such a small confined space may obliterate that. As well, two elements, two connections, more wiring = higher cost to manufacture etc.
I was thinking it might actually be less even for say baking two pies or loaves side by side as rightly or wrongly assuming that the closer the pans are to the sides of the oven/elements, those sides are going to get hotter that the middle.
I was thinking it might actually be less even for say baking two pies or loaves side by side as rightly or wrongly assuming that the closer the pans are to the sides of the oven/elements, those sides are going to get hotter that the middle.
Here's someone in Hamilton selling the same old Moffat stove we had. When mom redid her kitchen she went with a new standard width stove width between the cabinets fearing that if the old Moffat died or she had to sell the house it would look odd having a big gap of space leftover. My sister took it figuring they'd possibly use it one day but ended up giving it away. Look what this person is asking.. $1000.00 yikes
http://hamilton.canadianlisted.com/...iginal-1950-moffat-stove-for-sale_807130.html
http://hamilton.canadianlisted.com/...iginal-1950-moffat-stove-for-sale_807130.html
Evolution
Pete
I am now wandering into the fields of speculation but I think it was more a matter or evolution than anything else - that an the fact that the UK is an island. This style of oven layout was not seen in Euroope either - to the best of my knowledge.
I think a lot of it stems from the fact that we did not have any tradition of having the grill (broiler) in the oven. Right from the earliest days of electric cookers the grill was usually combined with a large rectangular hot plate on the hob. The grill element was lattice of spiral wound wire which would glow red hot when switched on - rather like electric heaters. To use it as a grill a special pan with a wire tray would be inserted on runners underneath it. As a hotplate (and it was pretty useless as such) a reflector would be inserted instead. So it was common to have a cavity under the hob for the grill - this space could also be used for warming a few plates as well either from heat from the grill or from the oven underneath.
So there was no "top" element in the oven to start with, so no inducement to supplement this with a bottom element. Add to this that in most early electric cookers (from the 1920s onwards) the control panel was placed adjacent to the oven which would narrow the space even more - remember that most cookers (except the most luxury models) would only have been 20-24 inches wide - so the ability to place something like two cake pans side by side was practically impossible, so this design may have been adopted to assist in the distribution of heat and make the temperature more uniform, particularly in comparison to gas, with whom there was a great rivilary - gas being more established in the market to begin with.
There was also the added benefit that the panels were easily removeable for cleaning - stay clean linings only arriving in the early 1970s - you will see from the picture I posted above that, although the Moffat oven has been well used, the oven walls behind the linings are spotless and I am sure they were never cleaned.
With the almost universal adoption of eye level grills in gas cookers at the end of the 1950s some electric cookers followed that same style (and some with ovenettes/rotesseries as discussed above), while others retained the under hob grill (the hob having 3 or 4 coil elements as seen in the USA/Canada and the grill entirely independent) and usually a stoarge compartment or drawer under the oven - this sometimes had a heating element too. As time went on, especially with larger models (and I am talking 21/22 inch wide vs 18/20inch), the grill cavity was made larger and the oven lowered, at the expense of the storage compartment underneath - a definate case of form over function as not only did you lose the storage space, but the oven was also significantly lower. There was now almost always a drop down door over the grill compartment too so inevitably, as a means of adding more features, the compartment became more insulated and the grill was combined with a fully thermostatically controlled smaller oven - and so our tradition of double ovens was established and continues to this day and almost universally too. Ironically, this arrangement used top and bottom heat, although the bottom element (if there was one) was not exposed this is the common arrangement in European ovens.
This carried on up to the mid 1980s or so. By this time the UK designs were starting to look very long in the tooth and, as the market for kitchen renovations really took off, there was a wide scale adoption of European and particularly the German Neff and Bosch ovens - often bundled in as part of the renovation package. The common arrangement, when not having split level, was to have a single oven (which could equally been used as a wall oven) built in under a hob. In many respects this was a retrograde step for not only were there no easily removeable or stay clean linings - heat was top/bottom or fan (convention) and the grill was in the oven, but it was a return to the hated solid rings which had been phased out in the UK 20 years before in favour of more controllable coil rings. Coil rings seem to have never been adopted in Europe - I wonder why?
As the UK manufactured units struggled against European imports (and some a great deal cheaper and far inferior quality to the Neff/Bosch units) this apparently unique oven arrangement seems to have died away - aided and abetted by the almost universal adoption of fan ovens in all but the very cheapest units. The fan arrangement did not require the side mounted elements so the walls of the oven could be moulded to fit the shelves or what seems to be much more common now and much cheaper to manufacture - wire grids on each side to support the shelves. In fairness these do make the ovens easier to clean as well.
I cannot think of a free standing standard sized cooker which offers combinations of top/bottom and fan cooking -its either one or the other and mostly fan. It is quite common in wall ovens to have a choice of one type or the other - apparently top/bottom is consider better for baking than fan, although personally I prefer fan (convection) for everything.
Finally, there is one bit of the British legacy which does live on, that of the double oven. The development of wall ovens here largely mirrored that of free-standing and indeed a lot of components were shared between both. The oven with separate grill compartment was universal until the mid-late 1970s when Belling brought out its Formula range of separates which for the first time included a single oven combined with grill. Fan ovens and double ovens also appeared - actually somewhat ahead of their freestanding equivalents, but then split level was more upmarket. There were European varities of this as well both oven and a half (full size oven and snaller oven grill) or true double ovens.
The standard European single oven was around 60cm high which, when "built under" fitted into a cavity 70 or more commonly 72cm high. The gap was usually filled by a blanking panel or sometimes a drawer. But from the mid 1990s (I think) came models for building under which were 72cm high, now with a smaller oven/grill and a second "main" oven - larger than the oven/grill but not as large as a standard single. And I can only think that this came from British demand for the double oven as there was certainly no such European tradition in free standing models that I can think of and yet pretty much all the manufacturers have them (and sometimes more than one model) in their line up.
To me, when built under, its the worst of all worlds for not only is the main oven set very low, but its also small as well. But i did use one of these as a wall oven for a while and it was quite good but I found I did not use the smaller oven at all, and the main oven was a bit small for my baking so discarded this for another arrangement which I am very happy with indeed.
Finally, a photo I snatched off eaby - this is an English Electric Rapide cooker from the late 1960s/early 1970s showing off its removeable oven linings.
Sorry, this appears to have turned into a novel - hope it was interesting
Al
Pete
I am now wandering into the fields of speculation but I think it was more a matter or evolution than anything else - that an the fact that the UK is an island. This style of oven layout was not seen in Euroope either - to the best of my knowledge.
I think a lot of it stems from the fact that we did not have any tradition of having the grill (broiler) in the oven. Right from the earliest days of electric cookers the grill was usually combined with a large rectangular hot plate on the hob. The grill element was lattice of spiral wound wire which would glow red hot when switched on - rather like electric heaters. To use it as a grill a special pan with a wire tray would be inserted on runners underneath it. As a hotplate (and it was pretty useless as such) a reflector would be inserted instead. So it was common to have a cavity under the hob for the grill - this space could also be used for warming a few plates as well either from heat from the grill or from the oven underneath.
So there was no "top" element in the oven to start with, so no inducement to supplement this with a bottom element. Add to this that in most early electric cookers (from the 1920s onwards) the control panel was placed adjacent to the oven which would narrow the space even more - remember that most cookers (except the most luxury models) would only have been 20-24 inches wide - so the ability to place something like two cake pans side by side was practically impossible, so this design may have been adopted to assist in the distribution of heat and make the temperature more uniform, particularly in comparison to gas, with whom there was a great rivilary - gas being more established in the market to begin with.
There was also the added benefit that the panels were easily removeable for cleaning - stay clean linings only arriving in the early 1970s - you will see from the picture I posted above that, although the Moffat oven has been well used, the oven walls behind the linings are spotless and I am sure they were never cleaned.
With the almost universal adoption of eye level grills in gas cookers at the end of the 1950s some electric cookers followed that same style (and some with ovenettes/rotesseries as discussed above), while others retained the under hob grill (the hob having 3 or 4 coil elements as seen in the USA/Canada and the grill entirely independent) and usually a stoarge compartment or drawer under the oven - this sometimes had a heating element too. As time went on, especially with larger models (and I am talking 21/22 inch wide vs 18/20inch), the grill cavity was made larger and the oven lowered, at the expense of the storage compartment underneath - a definate case of form over function as not only did you lose the storage space, but the oven was also significantly lower. There was now almost always a drop down door over the grill compartment too so inevitably, as a means of adding more features, the compartment became more insulated and the grill was combined with a fully thermostatically controlled smaller oven - and so our tradition of double ovens was established and continues to this day and almost universally too. Ironically, this arrangement used top and bottom heat, although the bottom element (if there was one) was not exposed this is the common arrangement in European ovens.
This carried on up to the mid 1980s or so. By this time the UK designs were starting to look very long in the tooth and, as the market for kitchen renovations really took off, there was a wide scale adoption of European and particularly the German Neff and Bosch ovens - often bundled in as part of the renovation package. The common arrangement, when not having split level, was to have a single oven (which could equally been used as a wall oven) built in under a hob. In many respects this was a retrograde step for not only were there no easily removeable or stay clean linings - heat was top/bottom or fan (convention) and the grill was in the oven, but it was a return to the hated solid rings which had been phased out in the UK 20 years before in favour of more controllable coil rings. Coil rings seem to have never been adopted in Europe - I wonder why?
As the UK manufactured units struggled against European imports (and some a great deal cheaper and far inferior quality to the Neff/Bosch units) this apparently unique oven arrangement seems to have died away - aided and abetted by the almost universal adoption of fan ovens in all but the very cheapest units. The fan arrangement did not require the side mounted elements so the walls of the oven could be moulded to fit the shelves or what seems to be much more common now and much cheaper to manufacture - wire grids on each side to support the shelves. In fairness these do make the ovens easier to clean as well.
I cannot think of a free standing standard sized cooker which offers combinations of top/bottom and fan cooking -its either one or the other and mostly fan. It is quite common in wall ovens to have a choice of one type or the other - apparently top/bottom is consider better for baking than fan, although personally I prefer fan (convection) for everything.
Finally, there is one bit of the British legacy which does live on, that of the double oven. The development of wall ovens here largely mirrored that of free-standing and indeed a lot of components were shared between both. The oven with separate grill compartment was universal until the mid-late 1970s when Belling brought out its Formula range of separates which for the first time included a single oven combined with grill. Fan ovens and double ovens also appeared - actually somewhat ahead of their freestanding equivalents, but then split level was more upmarket. There were European varities of this as well both oven and a half (full size oven and snaller oven grill) or true double ovens.
The standard European single oven was around 60cm high which, when "built under" fitted into a cavity 70 or more commonly 72cm high. The gap was usually filled by a blanking panel or sometimes a drawer. But from the mid 1990s (I think) came models for building under which were 72cm high, now with a smaller oven/grill and a second "main" oven - larger than the oven/grill but not as large as a standard single. And I can only think that this came from British demand for the double oven as there was certainly no such European tradition in free standing models that I can think of and yet pretty much all the manufacturers have them (and sometimes more than one model) in their line up.
To me, when built under, its the worst of all worlds for not only is the main oven set very low, but its also small as well. But i did use one of these as a wall oven for a while and it was quite good but I found I did not use the smaller oven at all, and the main oven was a bit small for my baking so discarded this for another arrangement which I am very happy with indeed.
Finally, a photo I snatched off eaby - this is an English Electric Rapide cooker from the late 1960s/early 1970s showing off its removeable oven linings.
Sorry, this appears to have turned into a novel - hope it was interesting
Al
I remember a long article in the Wall Street Journal 15 or so years ago about the globalization of the whitegoods (major appliance) market where it went into a good bit of detail about the differences (specifically within Europe) of appliances and how it might be tough to globalize them. The article specifically mentioned that side heat was the norm in the UK, but fan forced was the norm in most of Continental Europe. Apparently for gas ovens too they have/had the heat on the side/back in the UK. The article also mentioned laundry differences (toploading h-axis in France/boilwash in Germany/clothes dryers in Scandinavia/...) The article may have had something to do with the Whirlpool/Philips merger (so that might give anyone researching it a date to look around)
Hi Al
Very interesting read, thanks for taking the time
Very interesting read, thanks for taking the time
Moffat
Congratulations Al, looking good with all the steel & chrome....are you taking out the combis you have or is this for the conservatory kitchen??
Yes , having to leave the boot open all tied down and praying you have taken the route with no hills...Lol, sounds very familiar, the things we done in the name of applainces...
I never gave it a thought growing up about ovens having side elements, just what we grew up with but it didnt seem to give us any iffy results, I do miss them, love the oven space, and are much easier to clean than bottom exposed elements I`m sure unless the element pops out,
There are only a few small slot in cookers that have a main multifunction oven & second smaller traditional oven & grill, interestingly enough these are by Belling (who this year is 100yrs old)....Heres their 60cm slot in Induction Hob model...
http://www.belling.co.uk/freestanding-cookers/fse60i/
Congratulations Al, looking good with all the steel & chrome....are you taking out the combis you have or is this for the conservatory kitchen??
Yes , having to leave the boot open all tied down and praying you have taken the route with no hills...Lol, sounds very familiar, the things we done in the name of applainces...
I never gave it a thought growing up about ovens having side elements, just what we grew up with but it didnt seem to give us any iffy results, I do miss them, love the oven space, and are much easier to clean than bottom exposed elements I`m sure unless the element pops out,
There are only a few small slot in cookers that have a main multifunction oven & second smaller traditional oven & grill, interestingly enough these are by Belling (who this year is 100yrs old)....Heres their 60cm slot in Induction Hob model...
http://www.belling.co.uk/freestanding-cookers/fse60i/
English Electric
Heres my English Electric model 57 cooker, rob & paul picked this up in a local charity shop for me, love the roll-a-dial baking times selector, very solid cooker, mum had the later Rapide 66 model....
Heres my English Electric model 57 cooker, rob & paul picked this up in a local charity shop for me, love the roll-a-dial baking times selector, very solid cooker, mum had the later Rapide 66 model....
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