More KA dishwasher fun

[bobbyderegis]

Suds, I have the identical machine! And it rocks!!! An old lady had it installed in her house, but being alone, she never used it. She died several years later and the house was sold. The new folks updated the kitchen, put the appliances on the front lawn to sell. I happened to be driving by, saw it, almost hit a tree, and carted it off for $50. Best 50 bucks I ever spent. I'll never part with this model: or my KDS 20. Hopefully the sumps will hold up. They tend to rust thru after so many years. Lots of luck with yours!
Bobby in Boston

 

[appnut]

Tom, keep talkin' about KitchenAid. Deep subject

 

[fnelson487]

I had that exact machine!! My favorite next to the KDS-17. I believe that Hobart had perfected the two wash arm machine by then. It was then purchased by WP.

 

[DADoES]

<blockquote>sudsmaster said: I asked because in another thread I recall reading that the "Suretemp" only acted in the first wash. But perhaps that was a different model (not 21)?</blockquote>
My 22 only heats the first wash (or the first two washes for Soak-n-Scrub). And the final rinse if Sani is selected (but it isn't a thermostatic hold, whereas wash heating is.) There's no heating pause for the main wash on any cycle. Interesting that on the Light cycle the timer still goes through the water heating increment but it only lasts for the duration since the thermostat circuit isn't involved. There's no pump circulation, and the 'sizzle' of the heating element can be faintly heard. The bi-metal detergent dispenser is apparently wired through the element circuit, there's a snap toward the end of the pause when it opens. The snap also serves as a signal during an actual heating period that wash is about to begin.

The Heating Water light comes on during the first increment of the main wash (after fill is complete), which is also when the main wash dispenser cup opens.

 

[gadgetgary]

KA 1986-87

Glen,

Back in 1986 or 1987 I purchased a KA Superba. I don't know the series, but is was no comparison to the KA that it replaced(the Superba with the black energy saver button to the side and with the rack that loaded the plates in the middle). Anyway, that 1986-87 DW did such a poor job, that I sent it back to KA(they came and picked it up). I replaced it with a GE2800 which was perfect(and which I aquired another from Ebay last year and love it!). I also love my KA Superba 22 series that I purchased in 1992 and is presently in my kitchen.
Thanks for your insight.

Gary

 

[sudsmaster]

"Has anyone else noticed that ceramic counter-tops seem to be *de rigeur* in California? "

Oh, they had their heyday about 30 years ago here. My kitchen, which was remodeled in the '70's (I think!) has almost identical white tile with big black grout. It's actually pretty good tile, and the grout is like it's epoxied or sealed or something - the tile gives out before the grout does. From what I've seen while replacing the drop-in cooktop in my kitchen, it's also very well built - the tile rests on a cement slab that's at least 1 inch thick. One of my neighbors in a condo complex built in the 70's also has very similar tiled countertops.

"De riguer" for countertops in California now is granite slab counter-tops, or maybe Corian or other synthetic stone surfacing. Has been that way for a while now. Don't know if I'd like granite for a counter, though. Stains and scratches too easily. But it can be beautiful.

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks to all for the wonderful information about the KA/Hobart dishwasher series.

I'm set to pick the Superba 21 this weekend. It's getting kind of exciting

 

[deeptub]

Well since Bob says to keep talking and since I failed to address this one:

"When did the forced air-drying and the *push-it-out-the-seam between-the-doors* vent stop?"

Forced air drying last appeared on the KD-23 series. The KD-24 just used the heating element just like a WP, with the vent at the top of the door. The KA models did have a wax motor operated damper on the vent so it opened only during drying. I think this is common practice among mid-high end machines now.

Whirlpool did cheapen lesser model KAs shortly after their takeover. KAs historically have had a completely submerged water heater in the bottom of the sump, and a drying heater outside the tub in the fan duct. When KA came out with water heating for washes, even the BOL Custom had a heater in the sump. After the WP acquisition, they switched to a low-wattage water/dry heater that was up out of the sump (like most machines have) on the Imperial 21 and Custom 21 models. This allowed them to switch to a plastic drying fan housing.

Incidentally, the 21 series was the last to have Imperial and Custom designations on their control panels, though the "I" and "C" continued in the model numbers. Superba carried on through some of the 01 series.

And of course Hobart wasn't perfect. The KD-19 "Energy Saver IV" machines were generally loathed by all. They heated multiple segments of the wash and the final rinse to 155 degrees. "Now every cycle is a Sani Cycle" they touted. Then, because of the higher rinse temp, they felt heat was not needing for drying, so there was just a blower (using the plastic blower parts that WP later used to cheapen the lesser 21s) that pulsed on and off through a really long dry period. They were an overreaction to the energy crises electricity-wise, but were still water hogs, they took forever to run, and there was no way to deselect any of this water heating. They were quickly (two years I think) replaced by the fine KD-20 models which reintroduced heated drying, had one water heating period (two in the Soak and Scrub cycle), and used significantly less water.

I'm finished now.
T.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, I just picked up the Superba 21. The exterior is in pretty good shape, although the control panel has a small chunk of the thin brown plastic laminate missing from the lower left hand corner, and it looks like the aluminum underneath has oxidized, forming a white powder.

The interior tub is in great shape. But the racks are not in top condition. The lower one is missing a wheel, and the upper one has broken tines, and, more seriously, a broken left hand support. But it's all fixable.

The insulation is interesting. It's a kind of thick organic felt (about 3/8" thick) covered by thick reflective foil. It's all in great shape, and I lucked out because after weeks of rain today is bright and sunny, so the insulation didn't get wet on the trip home (40 miles each way).

This one does have a heating element in the sump, and a metal heater/blower underneath the rear rh corner. The frame is not as robust as that on the 17A, in my opinion. I think it could be easy to retrofit the 17A to be a portable, but not so sure about the 21.

The filter is in good shape, but the very fine plastic mesh screen at the top is all torn up, mostly missing. I figure I could probably renew it with either fine stainless or even no-see-um netting. Stainless would probably be better.

Comparatively speaking, I prefer the construction on the 17A. It's simpler and seems stronger, with fewer parts to fail. The one big drawback of the 17A is the lack of an internal water heater... but that may be just my opinion. Where I'm planning on putting the washer is close to a kitchen sink, and relatively close to the water heater, so I think it could get a fully hot wash charge at the start. Except I lowered my water heater temp to 120F in order to save gas this winter (rebate from utility company expected).

My inclination is to install the 17A in the patio kitchen, once I get the cabinetry, plumbing, and electrical sufficiently modified. Or... I could turn it into a portable, in which case it would be ready for action probably fairly quickly. Always nice to have options.

Anyway, I'm going to take a nap. It feels like my cold isn't completely gone yet.

 

[deeptub]

Hi, Suds.
Congrats on the Superba 21. The machine will run *ok* with the torn mesh, but it will perform its best if you repair it--especially considering that the machine has one rinse.
The mesh on the 21 series did degrade and tear with time. The 22 series had a much much finer and more durable mesh, and that pump top is the replacement for the 21 series as well. If I were you, I would consider replacing the pump top. It's a little pricey, but it will give you the best performance possible.
See link below.

T.

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www.repairclinic.com

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks, Deeptub.

I am less than fully enthusiastic about this particular unit because it looks to me like it's been thrashed. The racks are basically toast. The upper spray arm doesn't rotate freely in its little cage, it rubs on the bottom. The upper rack has broken off the attachmed to the height adjuster on the left, and there are numerous prongs missing. The sump looks ok, no rust there, but the door looks a bit sprung - it seems to hang lower than it should when fully open. I'm thinking this DW saw some very hard use, maybe abuse. I'm thinking "rental", lol.

It will take some work/effort/$$$ to get it going again, and I'm really thinking that for my purposes (occasional use in patio kitchen) the 17A will be a better choice. Either way, I've pretty much settled on where it's going to go. I'm going to build a little counter for it beside the main countertop; all I have to do is to move the fridge over a couple of feet. I'll put some sort of countertop material on top, so it can be used as extra counter space.

Here's where it will go:

 

[veg-o-matic]

Now ain't that purty! Love the cornice over the sink.

veg

 

[foraloysius]

Very pretty indeed!

 

[gansky1]

I love the "patio kitchen" - I'm surprised you don't already have a dishwasher out there already! That Compact 30 is very nice as well. The KDC-17 will be perfect for a second dishwasher - you can even remove the top rack for very large items.

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks for the compiments. The cornice over the sink conceals a recessed light fixture. It has a compact flourescent bulb in it now, of course. The mirror over the sink does a nice job of creating the illusion of a window, except of course for one's own reflection in it. Oddly, I rarely notice the self-reflection in it. Just above the cornice is a pink plastic PeeWee Herman lunchbox, complete with wide-mouth plastic Thermos bottle.

The Compact 30 is a very well made thick flat coil GM Frigidaire electric range. It's in good shape, but the clock tower has a cracked plastic bezel and the clock doesn't work any more, and the left front big burner doesn't heat below the high setting (not a coil issue, probably a control issue). I'm planning on replacing the electric range with an 80's vintage black Modern Maid drop-in gas range I have waiting in storage. The wait part involves extending the gas line under the house out to this location. But the last time I had gas line work done, I had the plumber install a "T" on the line nearest that location, so it would be easier to run something out there. The biggest challenge will be to figure out where to put the gas line shut-off valve for the range. It might have to go under the sink.

 

[Brent-Aucoin]

Hello all,
Thanks to Ralph on his post of a Kitchen Aid on Craigs list, I decided to call and find out about it. It was located in Norcross Georgia, about 20 miles north of me.
Well, when I get there, the guy has two. One is an Imperial in Yellow, and the other is a Supurba in Black.
I bought the Supruba, and talked him down to $25. It is in good shape. It was actually taken out of his house.
It is a KDS-18. Tell me some info on this one.
Can anyone tell me what year this was from? I ran it in the garage at my house, and was happy with how quiet it was.
All in all, I just can't wait to replace the Maytag "Quiet Series 300" that I have. It is the three rack thing. It just takes way to long to wash! Does a good job, and is quiet, but takes way to long. I think the "quick wash" is 70 minutes.
Also, I want to change the color of the Supurba to White. Awhile back I was somewhere, and I saw very thin metal that was painted in different colors, that you could cut to your needs. I remember thinking that this would be perfect to change colors of dishwashers and such. I don't remember where this was at. Have you all ever ran into this stuff? And if so, remind me where it is?
I love Dishwasher talk, and am so glad that I found this one.
Kind of thinking about going back and getting the Imperial just to save it.
Thanks all
Brent

 

[bobbyderegis]

Does anyone have any info on Hobart disposers? For years they were sold under the KA name, then WP decided to use ISE disposers under the KA name. (Don't get me going on WP!) Viking was selling the Hobart disposers but they have since stopped. Are they just NLA or did another company pick them up? I loved my '86 KA Superba disposer and would love to find another!
Bobby in Boston

 

[deeptub]

Bobby, I noticed that Viking seems to have ISE disposers now. However, they still have the Wham-Jam/Jaminator buttons and fixed cutters on the flywheels. I wonder if they are still essentially the KA design but they've switched to the ISE-style mounting (possibly for cost cutting) or maybe they've contracted with ISE to make a disposer to their specs? Because, apart from the mounting change, the specs still sound like a KA.

Hmmm...

T.

 

[agiflow]

(Don't get me going on WP!)

Why,..what's the beef with Whirlpool?

 

[deeptub]

Brent, your KDS-18 is from approx. 1976-1979 and was the first KitchenAid model with a washarm below the upper rack. Unfortunately, they made that washarm rather small, and it doesn't wash things in the corners of the rack very well--if at all. They rectified this on the KDS-19 with a full-size arm that was essentially the width of the rack. Your machine may have already been updated with a newer rack. If not, you'll want to do that. In fact, the yellow Imperial might be a possible source of that rack, depending on what model it is. If you can't find one, I *MIGHT* have all the parts to convert your present rack.

KA made many other changes in the switch from the 17 to 18 series. They redesigned the pump to have a lower profile (so the tub could be taller), they switched to a drain valve that was less likely to jam open, they redesigned the door hinges to be sturdier, moved the door seal from the door to the jamb, etc. It was also the first Superba to have its timer behind the control panel rather than in the motor compartment.

Your Superba has a long Soak & Scrub cycle which does an excellent job on impossibly dirty pans with today's enzyme detergents--mine is always impressing me with things I was sure it wouldn't get clean. It uses a triple-fill of detergent--you fill and close both dispensers and then put about 2 tablespoons of detergent in the indentation that closing the covers reveals. It is 104 minutes long (all cycle times are estimates--I haven't looked at the manual in awhile).

The Normal Wash cycle is 68 minutes and consists of 2 partial-fill prerinses, a prewash, a main wash, and three rinses--the last being a partial fill. (The two partial fill prerinses are "fast forwarded" variations of the soak & scrub segments of the soak & scrub cycle, courtesy of the rapid advance timer.)

The Sani Cycle is the same as the Normal Wash cycle, but the final partial-fill rinse is heated to 180 degrees. The pump stops and the SANI light comes on while the water heats. It's length is the same time as Normal plus however long it takes to heat the water.

Rinse Hold is a single rinse plus a lot of timer rapid-advancing.

Short Wash is (I think) 37 minutes, and consists of a prerinse, a shortened main wash, and two final rinses (the last a partial fill). There is much rapid-advancing through various parts of this cycle. You only fill and close the Main Wash dispenser for this cycle.

Plate Warm is a lot of rapid advancing to the dry portion of the cycle, for warming plates.

It's important to have your water heater set rather hot--I have mine at 135, and it seems to work very well. The water heating element is energized at half-power (700W) during many parts of the cycles (soaks, main wash, etc) to maintain water temp, but it is not thermostatically controlled.

If you take the front panel off the door, there should be a schematic wiring diagram that also has a cycle chart. It's one of the most complex I've seen.

I think that's all there is to know about this machine. Someone else please fill in any gaps in my knowledge!

T.