Need Electrical Advice for Heavy Old Wall Sconce

[58limited]

Most of my ceiling lights mount using the Hickey nut. I've not seen a horizontal mounting using that but it would be pretty stable. They can support quite a bit of weight - my crystal chandeliers are pretty heavy. The electrical box is nailed to a 2X4 crosspiece attached to the ceiling joists and has a threaded hollow stud projecting from the center that the nut screws onto and that the house wiring comes out of.

 

The open part of the nut allows one to simultaneously thread the nut onto the box stud and the fixture by sticking a screw driver through and rotating the nut itself without having to rotate the entire fixture. After it is secure, you then wire the fixture to the box wiring. I've attached a picture below - some of my boxes have the wiring coming out of the threaded box stud the hickey nut screws onto, not a separate place as shown in the picture.

 

There is a vintage lighting store here in my town that has a box of older used Hickey nuts. If you need a replacement, let me know the size or send me yours for a match and I'll get you one. Heck, they probably have the correct electrical box too. Let me know if you need one.

 

[sudsmaster]

And then one can always use make-up to conceal the hickey.

 

[rp2813]

I'm no physics expert, but I'm thinking that in a wall mount situation, gravity won't have a 100% effect on the electrical box like it does with a ceiling mount.

 

I think I can clean up the Hickey nut that's on the fixture, but will keep the offers of assistance in mind if I run into trouble.

 

[sudsmaster]

You might want to look into having it powder coated before hanging it outside.

 

[rp2813]

I'm going to use paint remover on a section of it and see what's underneath.  I'd be fine with letting it rust except it would end up staining the stucco.

 

[volvoguy87]

Gas replacement.

That fixture was designed to replace a gas or gas/electric fixture. The threaded rod is the gas supply pipe. When the gas lighting system in a building was disconnected (assuming it was, in fact, disconnected), the old gas pipes made ideal attaching points for new fixtures. The gas pipes were securely mounted and could hold considerable weight.

The knob and tube wiring common at the time did not use electrical boxes. I would either use parts made for the application or just mount a black iron pipe nipple to a metal electrical box and wire it up. Definately re-wire the fixture though.

An interesting restoration project.

Dave

 

[sudsmaster]

I'm going to use paint remover

For some reason I'm reminded of the closing scene in the Maltese Falcon, where the black paint is frantically scraped away from the statuette, revealing noting but lead underneath, instead of gold and fabulous jewels.

Who knows what Ralph will find? Treasure, or rust?

 

[rp2813]

I think Dave and Darrel nailed it . . .

The Hickey nut has a 3/8" thread, which is a common size for gas service.  Lowe's doesn't carry anything with that size thread in a mounting bar.

 

Currently I'm stuck, because the Hickey is stuck.  I'm pretty sure it's fused by rust.  I can't remove the canopy or the sleeve it surrounds because neither can get past the Hickey.  The sleeve appears to be brass, but that's all I've been able to identify thus far.  The canopy is definitely cast something, but I don't know what yet.  Anyway, I can't rewire if I can't get the Hickey removed -- unless fishing new wire through from the top may be possible with the mounting assembly remaining intact.

 

I sprayed PB Blaster where the Hickey threads onto the pipe and am letting it soak in overnight.  If I can't get it to budge, I think taking a shot at pulling new wires through from the bulb base is all that's left to try before handing the job over to a professional.

 

So Dave, are you suggesting that I punch out the rear slug on an electrical box and mount a 3/8" nipple onto it there?  As long as the box is securely fastened, that sounds like a fairly simple solution to the mounting issue.  My preference would be to use a mounting bar, but I don't think I'll find one with a 3/8" thread.  The reason a bar would be better is that they usually have long slots for the mounting screws that allow for side-to-side adjustment.  The current box for the front porch fixture is close to the edge/corner of the wall, and the large canopy on the torch fixture would likely protrude past the edge.  I was hoping I could rig a mounting bar as far to one side as it would go, resulting in the canopy moving far enough in from the edge to correct the problem.  Another possibility is to find a box with more than one rear punch-out so I could mount the nipple off center.  The canopy is still large enough to hide the box behind it.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

It would not be difficult to get some steel, maybe 1/4" thick, drill and tap it for 3/8", and add other mounting holes as needed. I'd need to know if the pipe is machine thread or pipe thread, but it's not rocket science. Let me know.

 

[rp2813]

Progress!

Rich, I may just take you up on that offer if there's no way to make this work by using options available through retailers.

 

This morning I still couldn't get the Hickey to budge by putting an extra large screwdriver through it and trying to twist it free.  Then I had a V-8 moment, quickly got past it, and reached for -- wait for it -- a pipe wrench.  Duh.  It required the largest one I had, but the Hickey finally started to turn.

 

So now the mounting pipe is exposed and I'm not sure if it's removable.  Might this be as far as I can take things before moving to the other end and addressing the more delicate process of removing the porcelain socket?

 

Here's a picture of the fixture with Hickey, canopy and sleeve removed:

 

[rp2813]

A closer shot of the pipe connection.  Any suggestions for the next step would be most welcome.

 

[rp2813]

I removed the top portion of the porcelain bulb socket assembly and detached the wires from its base.  Whether I tug on them from that end or from the open end of the pipe, they won't budge.  These are solid wires (maybe 16 gauge), not stranded.  There is no doubt in my mind that the socket base will shatter if I attempt to remove it, and I'd like to avoid having to.  I think the entire porcelain assembly is still serviceable and can  remain, if I can manage to replace the wiring while the socket base is still attached.

 

The only thing left to determine is whether the 3/8" section of pipe is permanently fused onto the fixture.  I didn't want to get carried away trying to loosen it.  There are old tell-tale scars visible on it from a wrench or pliers but there's no threading exposed, which is why I'm wondering if it could have been intentionally fused in place for safety concerns associated with gas fixtures.  Re-wiring would be a relative cinch if I could get this piece off.

 

Since I've never worked with a gas fixture before, I don't have any knowledge of how they were manufactured, or what degree of damage I could do by using more force to try and remove the pipe stub from it.

 

Also, before I started pulling things apart, I clipped a power cord onto the wires and screwed in a bulb.  I plugged the cord into an isolated test circuit on my bench, flipped the breaker and the light lit.  I at least know now that there are no breaks in the wires if I get to a point where I'm able to use them to fish through new ones.

 

Is it time to take this thing to a pro yet, or should I keep at it with trying to remove the pipe?

 

[rp2813]

Success!

After letting the PB Blaster work overnight, this afternoon I took another shot at removing the pipe.  I had to clamp the pipe vertically real tight in the vise so it wouldn't rotate as I used both hands to torque the fixture counter-clockwise.  I coaxed it free by repeatedly using short, forceful bursts of counter-clockwise pressure.  The size and weight of the fixture provided much needed leverage.

 

With the pipe removed, I twisted and then soldered new wiring onto the old and wrapped it with electrical tape.  I presume standard electrical cording is OK as opposed to separate black & white wires.  If there's a reason not to use cording, it will be easy enough to pull through two separate wires.  Right now it's at least functioning as a placeholder.  I pulled the wire from the pipe fitting end since the narrowest point to pass through was at the socket base.  I had trouble at first because there was rust and debris clogging the passage just below the socket base.  I got a section of coat hanger wire and stuck it through, then progressed to a small screwdriver, and finally a larger longer screwdriver that reamed through everything and got the wires moving freely.  The rewiring was a relative cinch compared to removing the Hickey and related section of pipe.

 

I've knotted both ends of the new wiring until the fixture is ready for reassembly.  Next up is removing the layers of paint.  It has crossed my mind that there could be lead-based paint on this thing.  Slathering it with paint remover in sections seems like the safest way to approach this part of the project.

 

Before I start with paint removal, I'm going to scope out the box behind the current front porch fixture.  I'll probably have to change it out, and when I checked at Lowe's I found the type with three punch-outs on the back, which would be perfect, at least in concept at this point. 

 

Here's a picture after removing the pipe and fishing through new wiring.  The pipe is at left.

 

[58limited]

That wire should work just fine, although you might consider a three strand wire such as Romex so you can have a ground wire for safety.

 

[sudsmaster]

Because the hickey was contructed to route neutral and line in different directons, I'd guess that the best wiring would be to use individual stranded conduit wires, at least 14 gauge. The standard lamp or extension cord wiring may work fine, it's just that the insulation on conduit ready wire is even better. It's probably rated for higher temps and would be less prone to getting nicked.

But the lamp cord you used may work just fine as well. Just make sure you keep neutral to neutral (the neutral on lamp cord has striations).

While you're at it, you could put in a push button or toggle switch somewhere on the fixture so the light could be turned off at the fixture as well as via the wall switch. That always adds to the winter night drama (is the switch on? or off? which switch? Dammit!)

 

[rp2813]

I know for certain that there's no option for a ground in the wiring scheme where this fixture will be installed.  It's a 1927 arrangement happening in the box.

 

I originally intended to use conduit wire, but my stash had none to offer.  I can buy some at ACE off a reel.  It would be the professional way to update things.  The wiring that was in there could be close to 100 years old (the fixture itself is therefore even older), so this update is long overdue.

 

Rich, I don't know from neutral and am fairly sure the wires I'll be connecting to won't be color coded.  How do I know which terminal on the socket base is the neutral, and is there any way to identify it coming out of the wall?  On the socket connection, one terminal accepts a screw that attaches the socket to the base, while the other does not, so I presume that's an indication of which is which.  I'll see what my handy little Step By Step Guide Book On Home Wiring has to say.

 

 

[this post was last edited: 9/6/2013-01:44]

 

[volvoguy87]

Sorry about the long wait on my reply.

I was away for Rosh Hashanah.

In the past, I've taken a flange for using 3/8 pipe as a railing, or some other sort of similar application, and mounted it to a metal electrical box. I place the flange in the box, use an awl to mark where the flange mounting screws need to go, and drill the holes in the box. I then use bolts and nuts (with lock washers) to attach the flange firmly tot the box. I then install the box, wire it, and can then screw the nipple into the flange inside the box. I have also done this by attaching the flange to a box cover in a similar fashion, depending on the circumstances of the installation.

Make sure that the box you use, and its mounting method, can handle the weight of the fixture.

Good luck!
Dave

 

[rp2813]

No worries Dave. 

 

Interesting concept with the flange.  That might never have occurred to me, but I don't think it's an option for this particular job.  Ultimately, the threaded connection, be it for the pipe or the Hickey nut, will need to be off center or the canopy will protrude past the corner where front and side exterior walls meet.   I'm trying to avoid having to move the box.

 

As you mentioned, making sure the box is well-secured to accommodate the weight of the fixture is the first order of business.  I'm anticipating either having to replace the existing box (if I go with your reply #24) or fabricating a sturdy mounting bar that has a 3/8" threaded hole as far off center as possible (per Rich's reply #27) in order to mount the fixture in a way that mitigates the canopy issue.

 

I'll be taking a look at the box soon to see what I'll be working with.   Today I'll head out to ACE for some conduit wire.

 

Thanks to all for the advice and coaching thus far. 

 

 

 

[rp2813]

I did some reading, figured out the whole hot/neutral deal, got some 14 gauge conduit wire in black and white, ran it through, wired and reassembled the socket, used the same testing arrangement as I did with the original wiring, and the bulb lit.

 

I'll pick up some paint remover tomorrow and also take a look at the existing box with hopes that my lucky streak will continue.  If all goes well, I can consider ordering the flame shaped globe soon.

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

OK, good Ralph.

I was going to say that in my house, the knob and tube neutral wire usually has a splash of white paint on it. On the socket, the threaded portion should be wired to neutral. I imagine this is what you decided as well.

One can also use a voltmeter to a ground to figure out which wire in the wall is hot and which is neutral.