Need Electrical Advice for Heavy Old Wall Sconce

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I removed the top portion of the porcelain bulb socket assembly and detached the wires from its base.  Whether I tug on them from that end or from the open end of the pipe, they won't budge.  These are solid wires (maybe 16 gauge), not stranded.  There is no doubt in my mind that the socket base will shatter if I attempt to remove it, and I'd like to avoid having to.  I think the entire porcelain assembly is still serviceable and can  remain, if I can manage to replace the wiring while the socket base is still attached.

 

The only thing left to determine is whether the 3/8" section of pipe is permanently fused onto the fixture.  I didn't want to get carried away trying to loosen it.  There are old tell-tale scars visible on it from a wrench or pliers but there's no threading exposed, which is why I'm wondering if it could have been intentionally fused in place for safety concerns associated with gas fixtures.  Re-wiring would be a relative cinch if I could get this piece off.

 

Since I've never worked with a gas fixture before, I don't have any knowledge of how they were manufactured, or what degree of damage I could do by using more force to try and remove the pipe stub from it.

 

Also, before I started pulling things apart, I clipped a power cord onto the wires and screwed in a bulb.  I plugged the cord into an isolated test circuit on my bench, flipped the breaker and the light lit.  I at least know now that there are no breaks in the wires if I get to a point where I'm able to use them to fish through new ones.

 

Is it time to take this thing to a pro yet, or should I keep at it with trying to remove the pipe?
 
Success!

After letting the PB Blaster work overnight, this afternoon I took another shot at removing the pipe.  I had to clamp the pipe vertically real tight in the vise so it wouldn't rotate as I used both hands to torque the fixture counter-clockwise.  I coaxed it free by repeatedly using short, forceful bursts of counter-clockwise pressure.  The size and weight of the fixture provided much needed leverage.

 

With the pipe removed, I twisted and then soldered new wiring onto the old and wrapped it with electrical tape.  I presume standard electrical cording is OK as opposed to separate black & white wires.  If there's a reason not to use cording, it will be easy enough to pull through two separate wires.  Right now it's at least functioning as a placeholder.  I pulled the wire from the pipe fitting end since the narrowest point to pass through was at the socket base.  I had trouble at first because there was rust and debris clogging the passage just below the socket base.  I got a section of coat hanger wire and stuck it through, then progressed to a small screwdriver, and finally a larger longer screwdriver that reamed through everything and got the wires moving freely.  The rewiring was a relative cinch compared to removing the Hickey and related section of pipe.

 

I've knotted both ends of the new wiring until the fixture is ready for reassembly.  Next up is removing the layers of paint.  It has crossed my mind that there could be lead-based paint on this thing.  Slathering it with paint remover in sections seems like the safest way to approach this part of the project.

 

Before I start with paint removal, I'm going to scope out the box behind the current front porch fixture.  I'll probably have to change it out, and when I checked at Lowe's I found the type with three punch-outs on the back, which would be perfect, at least in concept at this point. 

 

Here's a picture after removing the pipe and fishing through new wiring.  The pipe is at left.

rp2813++9-5-2013-20-38-0.jpg
 
Because the hickey was contructed to route neutral and line in different directons, I'd guess that the best wiring would be to use individual stranded conduit wires, at least 14 gauge. The standard lamp or extension cord wiring may work fine, it's just that the insulation on conduit ready wire is even better. It's probably rated for higher temps and would be less prone to getting nicked.

But the lamp cord you used may work just fine as well. Just make sure you keep neutral to neutral (the neutral on lamp cord has striations).

While you're at it, you could put in a push button or toggle switch somewhere on the fixture so the light could be turned off at the fixture as well as via the wall switch. That always adds to the winter night drama (is the switch on? or off? which switch? Dammit!)
 
I know for certain that there's no option for a ground in the wiring scheme where this fixture will be installed.  It's a 1927 arrangement happening in the box.

 

I originally intended to use conduit wire, but my stash had none to offer.  I can buy some at ACE off a reel.  It would be the professional way to update things.  The wiring that was in there could be close to 100 years old (the fixture itself is therefore even older), so this update is long overdue.

 

Rich, I don't know from neutral and am fairly sure the wires I'll be connecting to won't be color coded.  How do I know which terminal on the socket base is the neutral, and is there any way to identify it coming out of the wall?  On the socket connection, one terminal accepts a screw that attaches the socket to the base, while the other does not, so I presume that's an indication of which is which.  I'll see what my handy little Step By Step Guide Book On Home Wiring has to say.

 

 

[this post was last edited: 9/6/2013-01:44]
 
Sorry about the long wait on my reply.

I was away for Rosh Hashanah.

In the past, I've taken a flange for using 3/8 pipe as a railing, or some other sort of similar application, and mounted it to a metal electrical box. I place the flange in the box, use an awl to mark where the flange mounting screws need to go, and drill the holes in the box. I then use bolts and nuts (with lock washers) to attach the flange firmly tot the box. I then install the box, wire it, and can then screw the nipple into the flange inside the box. I have also done this by attaching the flange to a box cover in a similar fashion, depending on the circumstances of the installation.

Make sure that the box you use, and its mounting method, can handle the weight of the fixture.

Good luck!
Dave
 
No worries Dave. 

 

Interesting concept with the flange.  That might never have occurred to me, but I don't think it's an option for this particular job.  Ultimately, the threaded connection, be it for the pipe or the Hickey nut, will need to be off center or the canopy will protrude past the corner where front and side exterior walls meet.   I'm trying to avoid having to move the box.

 

As you mentioned, making sure the box is well-secured to accommodate the weight of the fixture is the first order of business.  I'm anticipating either having to replace the existing box (if I go with your reply #24) or fabricating a sturdy mounting bar that has a 3/8" threaded hole as far off center as possible (per Rich's reply #27) in order to mount the fixture in a way that mitigates the canopy issue.

 

I'll be taking a look at the box soon to see what I'll be working with.   Today I'll head out to ACE for some conduit wire.

 

Thanks to all for the advice and coaching thus far. 

 

 
 
I did some reading, figured out the whole hot/neutral deal, got some 14 gauge conduit wire in black and white, ran it through, wired and reassembled the socket, used the same testing arrangement as I did with the original wiring, and the bulb lit.

 

I'll pick up some paint remover tomorrow and also take a look at the existing box with hopes that my lucky streak will continue.  If all goes well, I can consider ordering the flame shaped globe soon.

 

 
 
OK, good Ralph.

I was going to say that in my house, the knob and tube neutral wire usually has a splash of white paint on it. On the socket, the threaded portion should be wired to neutral. I imagine this is what you decided as well.

One can also use a voltmeter to a ground to figure out which wire in the wall is hot and which is neutral.
 
Rich, that's how I worked it out.  The socket base doesn't have color coded terminal screws (brass and steel) like those on modern ones, so while at ACE I examined some sockets and concluded that the neutral was the threaded one.

 

I don't know if the wiring behind the existing fixture will be marked, but I figure since that fixture is working fine (it's a fairly recent install; the original one is long gone), I'll connect hot and neutral leads to the house wiring accordingly.  The knob & tube wiring that still exists in this house is sheathed in entirely black or white, but after 85 years, the sheathing on the connections behind the outdoor fixtures can appear to be black on both.
 
Well, the whole neutral goes where idea is 1) To protect humans and 2) To lessen chances of shorts.

In the first case, the neutral would be placed on theaded portion because it's the biggest and most human accessable portion of the socket. In the second case, it's also the part that MIGHT be more likely to contact the metal body of the fixture and maybe cause a short to ground. But it would only be slightly safer and then only when the fixture is powered on with a bulb in the socket.

If you flick the light switch on, and then check the voltage differntial between each wire and ground, the wire with zero (or close to it) potential volts would be the neutral wire. The one with 110 or more volts would be the hot wire.

Volt-ohm meters are relatively cheap; one can often pick one up for free from Harbor Freight with the right coupon. Even so, one that will tell you what's up with the wiring will cost less than $10.

Naturally you need to be careful around live circuits.
 
Long story on the meter I bought at Radio Shack, for which they don't carry batteries, and Harbor Freight was out of the free ones last time I bought something there.

 

I pulled away the existing fixture.  The box is firmly attached, which is good because I think it will have to remain.  The edges have been stuccoed over so it would be a PITA to remove it and replace it with a new one.  Unfortunately, the holes to fasten a mounting bar are positioned almost vertically instead of horizontally, and a horizontal bar would be the preferable arrangement for a custom-made one as Rich suggested in his reply #27. 

 

The only thing I can think of is to recreate what's there now with front bar welded or otherwise fastened to the rear one, and the 3/8" hole as far to the left as possible (close to where the black fixture wire is hanging straight down in the picture).

 

Rich, we should probably discuss this unless you or anyone else may have alternatives to suggest.

 

The photo also shows how close the box is to the side of the house, which is why the 3/8" hole has to be located on the far left.

rp2813++9-7-2013-15-46-40.jpg
 
Ralph,

It doesn't look to me like there will be enough depth to the fixure if those crossbars are not both removed. Even then the fixture might need to be shimmed away from the wall surface to have a tight seal (recommend also using rubber gasket and/or caulk in attempt to weather tight it and prevent dry rot of the framing behind the outlet.

Hopefully there's a 2x4 or 2x6 behind that box holding it firmly attached to the framework. Since the corner of the house is so close, there must be a fairly rigid mounting there. I'm just not sure if the metal of the box is strong enough to hold the weight of the fixture.

You might need to replace that pipe inside the fixture with a slightly shorter section to get it to fit snugly. I'm also wondering how one is supposed to fasten the whole think to the wall if the hickey is covered up. Or, does one attach the hickey with pipe, run the wires through pipe, put the cover over the pipe/hickey, thread the wires into the rest of the fixture, attach the rest of the fixture, and then connect up the wiring to the socket?
 
That's an interesting old fixture. It looks like one I saw several years ago in the Rejuvenation catalog, but doesn't show up there currently.

These were ususlly mounted onto fixture studs that were bolted onto the back of the outlet box (what the four holes in the back of the box are for), or to a mounting bar with threaded stud that protrudes through the center hole of the box.

The book "Wiring Simplified" by H.P. Richter, and later updated to current code by other authors, ilustrates this setup.
 
For sure what's there now all has to go.  I honestly don't think the box is going anywhere and will support the fixture fine.  I'm imagining attaching a sturdy fabricated bar to the box with an off-center 3/8" threaded hole for a nipple.  As I stated above, the design would require two pieces arranged similarly to the existing bar assembly.

 

There's enough room to do this if the fabricated horizontal section (with the 3/8" hole) is long enough (wider than the box) so it will tighten against the stucco.  I would estimate the distance from the stucco surface to the rear of the box to be 1" at least, which seems like enough room for a nipple to be fully threaded into/through the bar.  There's no question that the Hickey nut would not end up within the confines of the box, but the canopy is so deep that there's a ton of space to work with beyond the stucco, and it would be easy to run a bead of caulk around the canopy before sliding it into place.

 

Is there something I'm not seeing that would prevent this type of arrangement?  I'm not terribly concerned about whether the whole thing would be up to code.  It wouldn't be any worse than  what's happening there now.  I can try to make a drawing if my explanation above is lacking.
 
You could also mount it with a twist-lock ring so it can be quickly removed and used as a cudgel should some of those pesky religious cults show up your door with pamphlets ;-)
 
Thanks Dave.  That might be the easiest option, and one I can accomplish myself without having to outsource custom machining work.  I'll run over to Orchard Supply and see what I can put together.

 

I feel like I'm closing in on the home stretch with this, and if I can get the mounting worked out, I can order the globe next and remove paint/repaint while I'm waiting for it to arrive.

 

I have some leftover "hammered bronze" Rustoleum from a small project, which I think will provide the ideal finish.

 

BTW, I discovered a tiny drain hole in the bottom of the fitter, so it can rain all it wants once the fixture has been installed.
 
Globe.

There is a world of difference in globes. I find the ones from Lowe's and Home Depot are made of thin glass and are prone to breaking. Rejuvination, although expensive, has much higher quality globes and a nice variety of attractive styles. After having handled some Rejuvination globes (and fixtures) I just don't consider big-box store stuff to even be competition.

Dave

http://www.rejuvination.com
 
Globes

What I have in mind isn't something you'd find at Lowe's or HD. 

 

This is what I have my eye on and will likely be ordering (from Grand Brass Lamp Parts) once I get the mounting worked out.  It's 10" high and 6" across at its widest point, with 4" fitter.  I'd like to use an amber bulb in it.

rp2813++9-9-2013-13-32-57.jpg
 
Ralph,

Please let me know if you need a mounting bar drilled and tapped. I'll need to know if the 3/8 threads are NPT or UNC (pipe or machine thread). I'm guessing they are pipe thread.

An alternative would be to bypass the junction box entirely and mount a 3/8" pipe base flange onto the 2x4 that should be backing up the junction box. Then the pipe can be threaded into that. I've used the 1/2" pipe base flanges to mount LED garden lights in unusual places, such as on top of trellises and gates. It works for those lights that have pipe threaded mounting poles. I'm assuming 3/8" base flanges are available.
 
Rich, ideally I would like the receptacle for the pipe to be as far off center as possible.  This can be accomplished with a flange mounted to a box cover, but I think a mounting bar would allow the fixture to be positioned even further off center than if a flange were used. 

 

What the horizontal bar would need is a 3/8" hole for a pipe thread drilled and tapped close to one end.  As with the current bar assembly, a second bar would be required behind the horizontal one in order to affix the assembly to the box, and the two bars would need to be fastened together.  The plan view of this mounting bar assembly would have the 3/8" hole on the far left of the front/top bar.  The wiring logistics with a bar assembly seem like they would be much easier to work out than with a box cover.

 

Thanks for your offer.  I can send you a washer-mail with exact measurements and calculations if you think you can fabricate something.
 
Solid Disk

I agree, Rich! 

 

One threaded hole way off center, and another one for the wires to poke through.  We would need to figure out where the fastening holes would be located on the disk/plate in relation to the 3/8 threaded hole, since the box was installed all those years ago with its threaded mounting holes askew.
 
Tom, I didn't find the flame shaped globe on the Davis-Lynch site.  I have a feeling if I did, it would be more expensive than the one I've found.  The lowest price I've come across is $45 not including shipping through the above mentioned Grand Brass Lamp Parts.  I've also found the same/similar globe on eBay with a BIN of $45/Make Offer.  Shipping charges are higher through that retailer so I'd make an offer that would match the total from Grand Brass.  Then if I had any trouble, I'd have buyer protection and eBay's help to gain restitution.  They have come through for me in two disputes I had in the past. 

 

Before I place any on-line order I'll stop in at a nearby lighting shop (not Lamps Plus, mind you) and see if they stock it or can order it, and if their price including tax is a better deal than ordering on line and paying shipping charges.
 
Progress Report

I stopped in a a lighting shop yesterday to get a price on a globe.  I was prepared for it be higher than on line, but was taken aback when I heard the quote:  $96, and three weeks lead time.  Needless to say, I placed an order on line instead.  50% cheaper and faster.

 

I purchased a 3/8" pipe flange and sawed off one side, leaving three holes for mounting (see below).  It appears that this arrangement will allow the threaded 3/8" hole to be positioned as far to the left as possible inside the box.

 

I stripped the canopy and hit it with the Rustoleum hammered bronze I already had here.  The result was a nice color, but with a way too glossy/sparkly finish.  I'll be selecting something else with more of a matte finish instead.

 

Once the globe arrives, I should have the fixture painted and ready to mount.  I'll post again when that happens.

 

 

rp2813++9-20-2013-15-04-49.jpg
 
I'd like to mount it inside the box with wood screws.  If that gets complicated, I can do as Dave suggested above and mount it to a box cover, although that would place the weight of the fixture on the two small machine screws that fasten the cover plate to the box.
 

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