Need Electrical Advice for Heavy Old Wall Sconce

[sudsmaster]

Well, the whole neutral goes where idea is 1) To protect humans and 2) To lessen chances of shorts.

In the first case, the neutral would be placed on theaded portion because it's the biggest and most human accessable portion of the socket. In the second case, it's also the part that MIGHT be more likely to contact the metal body of the fixture and maybe cause a short to ground. But it would only be slightly safer and then only when the fixture is powered on with a bulb in the socket.

If you flick the light switch on, and then check the voltage differntial between each wire and ground, the wire with zero (or close to it) potential volts would be the neutral wire. The one with 110 or more volts would be the hot wire.

Volt-ohm meters are relatively cheap; one can often pick one up for free from Harbor Freight with the right coupon. Even so, one that will tell you what's up with the wiring will cost less than $10.

Naturally you need to be careful around live circuits.

 

[rp2813]

Long story on the meter I bought at Radio Shack, for which they don't carry batteries, and Harbor Freight was out of the free ones last time I bought something there.

 

I pulled away the existing fixture.  The box is firmly attached, which is good because I think it will have to remain.  The edges have been stuccoed over so it would be a PITA to remove it and replace it with a new one.  Unfortunately, the holes to fasten a mounting bar are positioned almost vertically instead of horizontally, and a horizontal bar would be the preferable arrangement for a custom-made one as Rich suggested in his reply #27. 

 

The only thing I can think of is to recreate what's there now with front bar welded or otherwise fastened to the rear one, and the 3/8" hole as far to the left as possible (close to where the black fixture wire is hanging straight down in the picture).

 

Rich, we should probably discuss this unless you or anyone else may have alternatives to suggest.

 

The photo also shows how close the box is to the side of the house, which is why the 3/8" hole has to be located on the far left.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

It doesn't look to me like there will be enough depth to the fixure if those crossbars are not both removed. Even then the fixture might need to be shimmed away from the wall surface to have a tight seal (recommend also using rubber gasket and/or caulk in attempt to weather tight it and prevent dry rot of the framing behind the outlet.

Hopefully there's a 2x4 or 2x6 behind that box holding it firmly attached to the framework. Since the corner of the house is so close, there must be a fairly rigid mounting there. I'm just not sure if the metal of the box is strong enough to hold the weight of the fixture.

You might need to replace that pipe inside the fixture with a slightly shorter section to get it to fit snugly. I'm also wondering how one is supposed to fasten the whole think to the wall if the hickey is covered up. Or, does one attach the hickey with pipe, run the wires through pipe, put the cover over the pipe/hickey, thread the wires into the rest of the fixture, attach the rest of the fixture, and then connect up the wiring to the socket?

 

[circlew]

That's an interesting old fixture. It looks like one I saw several years ago in the Rejuvenation catalog, but doesn't show up there currently.

These were ususlly mounted onto fixture studs that were bolted onto the back of the outlet box (what the four holes in the back of the box are for), or to a mounting bar with threaded stud that protrudes through the center hole of the box.

The book "Wiring Simplified" by H.P. Richter, and later updated to current code by other authors, ilustrates this setup.

 

[rp2813]

For sure what's there now all has to go.  I honestly don't think the box is going anywhere and will support the fixture fine.  I'm imagining attaching a sturdy fabricated bar to the box with an off-center 3/8" threaded hole for a nipple.  As I stated above, the design would require two pieces arranged similarly to the existing bar assembly.

 

There's enough room to do this if the fabricated horizontal section (with the 3/8" hole) is long enough (wider than the box) so it will tighten against the stucco.  I would estimate the distance from the stucco surface to the rear of the box to be 1" at least, which seems like enough room for a nipple to be fully threaded into/through the bar.  There's no question that the Hickey nut would not end up within the confines of the box, but the canopy is so deep that there's a ton of space to work with beyond the stucco, and it would be easy to run a bead of caulk around the canopy before sliding it into place.

 

Is there something I'm not seeing that would prevent this type of arrangement?  I'm not terribly concerned about whether the whole thing would be up to code.  It wouldn't be any worse than  what's happening there now.  I can try to make a drawing if my explanation above is lacking.

 

[sudsmaster]

You could also mount it with a twist-lock ring so it can be quickly removed and used as a cudgel should some of those pesky religious cults show up your door with pamphlets ;-)

 

[dustin92]

You know, I'm pretty sure I have seen that type of fixture with a large round white globe...

 

[volvoguy87]

Mounting.

If you mount a flange for the threaded rod onto a flat box cover, you can mount the flange off-center if you need to.

Dave

 

[rp2813]

Thanks Dave.  That might be the easiest option, and one I can accomplish myself without having to outsource custom machining work.  I'll run over to Orchard Supply and see what I can put together.

 

I feel like I'm closing in on the home stretch with this, and if I can get the mounting worked out, I can order the globe next and remove paint/repaint while I'm waiting for it to arrive.

 

I have some leftover "hammered bronze" Rustoleum from a small project, which I think will provide the ideal finish.

 

BTW, I discovered a tiny drain hole in the bottom of the fitter, so it can rain all it wants once the fixture has been installed.

 

[volvoguy87]

Globe.

There is a world of difference in globes. I find the ones from Lowe's and Home Depot are made of thin glass and are prone to breaking. Rejuvination, although expensive, has much higher quality globes and a nice variety of attractive styles. After having handled some Rejuvination globes (and fixtures) I just don't consider big-box store stuff to even be competition.

Dave

http://www.rejuvination.com

 

[rp2813]

Globes

What I have in mind isn't something you'd find at Lowe's or HD. 

 

This is what I have my eye on and will likely be ordering (from Grand Brass Lamp Parts) once I get the mounting worked out.  It's 10" high and 6" across at its widest point, with 4" fitter.  I'd like to use an amber bulb in it.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

Please let me know if you need a mounting bar drilled and tapped. I'll need to know if the 3/8 threads are NPT or UNC (pipe or machine thread). I'm guessing they are pipe thread.

An alternative would be to bypass the junction box entirely and mount a 3/8" pipe base flange onto the 2x4 that should be backing up the junction box. Then the pipe can be threaded into that. I've used the 1/2" pipe base flanges to mount LED garden lights in unusual places, such as on top of trellises and gates. It works for those lights that have pipe threaded mounting poles. I'm assuming 3/8" base flanges are available.

 

[rp2813]

Rich, ideally I would like the receptacle for the pipe to be as far off center as possible.  This can be accomplished with a flange mounted to a box cover, but I think a mounting bar would allow the fixture to be positioned even further off center than if a flange were used. 

 

What the horizontal bar would need is a 3/8" hole for a pipe thread drilled and tapped close to one end.  As with the current bar assembly, a second bar would be required behind the horizontal one in order to affix the assembly to the box, and the two bars would need to be fastened together.  The plan view of this mounting bar assembly would have the 3/8" hole on the far left of the front/top bar.  The wiring logistics with a bar assembly seem like they would be much easier to work out than with a box cover.

 

Thanks for your offer.  I can send you a washer-mail with exact measurements and calculations if you think you can fabricate something.

 

[sudsmaster]

Rather than two bars, maybe a solid disk would be a better idea?

 

[rp2813]

Solid Disk

I agree, Rich! 

 

One threaded hole way off center, and another one for the wires to poke through.  We would need to figure out where the fastening holes would be located on the disk/plate in relation to the 3/8 threaded hole, since the box was installed all those years ago with its threaded mounting holes askew.

 

[circlew]

The flame globe is the one I remember being shown in the Rejuvenation catalog on the fixture like Ralph's.

Most of their opal glass shades are made by Davis-Lynch Glass Co. in West Virginia. I totally agree these are much nicer than the ones sold in Home Depot or other such places.

http://www.davis-lynchglass.com

 

[rp2813]

Tom, I didn't find the flame shaped globe on the Davis-Lynch site.  I have a feeling if I did, it would be more expensive than the one I've found.  The lowest price I've come across is $45 not including shipping through the above mentioned Grand Brass Lamp Parts.  I've also found the same/similar globe on eBay with a BIN of $45/Make Offer.  Shipping charges are higher through that retailer so I'd make an offer that would match the total from Grand Brass.  Then if I had any trouble, I'd have buyer protection and eBay's help to gain restitution.  They have come through for me in two disputes I had in the past. 

 

Before I place any on-line order I'll stop in at a nearby lighting shop (not Lamps Plus, mind you) and see if they stock it or can order it, and if their price including tax is a better deal than ordering on line and paying shipping charges.

 

[rp2813]

Progress Report

I stopped in a a lighting shop yesterday to get a price on a globe.  I was prepared for it be higher than on line, but was taken aback when I heard the quote:  $96, and three weeks lead time.  Needless to say, I placed an order on line instead.  50% cheaper and faster.

 

I purchased a 3/8" pipe flange and sawed off one side, leaving three holes for mounting (see below).  It appears that this arrangement will allow the threaded 3/8" hole to be positioned as far to the left as possible inside the box.

 

I stripped the canopy and hit it with the Rustoleum hammered bronze I already had here.  The result was a nice color, but with a way too glossy/sparkly finish.  I'll be selecting something else with more of a matte finish instead.

 

Once the globe arrives, I should have the fixture painted and ready to mount.  I'll post again when that happens.

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Looks like nice metal forming work, Ralph. Are you going to drill new holes to mount it to the box?

 

[rp2813]

I'd like to mount it inside the box with wood screws.  If that gets complicated, I can do as Dave suggested above and mount it to a box cover, although that would place the weight of the fixture on the two small machine screws that fasten the cover plate to the box.