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mattl

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Sep 17, 2007
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Flushing, MI
I replaced my trusty GE dishwasher that was about 10 years old. Still like it and have it but it needs the pump rebuilt. Have the parts for that too. Got a killer deal on a Kitchenaid DW and decided to try it. Overall I'm very impressed. Few issues - not with performance- everything comes out spotless. Issues are minor 98% of the time, 1- length of cycle and 2 - no 30 minute cycle. but I can live with that except during the holidays when it might be an issue.

Anyway to my point. I always run the hot water at the sink as it's about a 40' run from the tank prior to running the DW. I've always noticed that anytime I run water while the DW is running I get HOT water. Now not so much. The small amount of water used and the length of the cycles are not enough to keep hot water all the time. I'd guess that is why the unit has a heater. I've checked any number of times at various points in the cycle and the water in the DW is HOT, just not hot from the tap. Not a real issue for me but just an observation.
 
Glad you're enjoying your new KitchenAid. I'd planned to make my next dishwasher a KA back at the house, but I needed a full-size portable upon moving to the apartment in August. This left me with a choice between Whirlpool (good user and professional reviews) or GE (horrible user and professional reviews).

Does your KA boost the main wash temp to 140? My previous dishwashers (Frigidaire, KA, Maytag, LG, GE) did, but I've noticed some very recent models only heat to 120 degrees---as does my Whirlpool. Tap temp is 142, so I'm assuming the internal heater doesn't have to work much.
 
Eugene, most of the stable of WP products have default regular soil water temp of 105--Maytag, WP, KA, Amana.  It's one of the reasons why I chose my Kenmore Elite--default is still 120 and high temp 140.   The aforementioned brands predominantly have high temp of 135 degrees, some option/cycle combinations put it at 140.  All based upon what's specified in user manuals.  My Smart Wash starts at 1:58 and ends up taking 2:31 to 2:44.  Pots & Pans is 2:16 and ends up subtracting about :05 off of that.  Times are without heated dry. 

 

Matt, does your model have the Quick Wash cycle?  I find the 58 minute cycle is good, far better than my first TT's 30 minute wash.  Plus I can add heated dry. 

[this post was last edited: 11/16/2017-20:41]
 
Running the tap

Was thinking about if that still made sense with the new DW you have.

I'd actually think so in terms of saving time.

IIRC the sensor cycles on WP machines (as KA is made by WP) can do several prewashes, but none of them are longer then 10 min (or was it 15 min?).
Given that your pipes are somewhat insulated, the water in them should still be well above 120F after those 15 minutes, at least if your water heater is set to 140F or above.

Not sure if I mix things up saying this, but I think that WP sensor cycles opt more towards more prewashes if the incomming water is cool in an attempt to purge the pipes and thus save time.
With shorter runs that works well, but at 40ft, even 3 fills won't work out as a once-over purge.
Thus, if you do not purge the lines, it might run more prewashes then needed by soil.

Though I think the biggest culprit for your long cycle times will be the final rinse.
The main wash is at least 30 or 45 min, and there aren't enough quick water changes after the main wash to purge the lines.
Thus, heating the final rinse to beyond 130F will take a considerable amount of time.
And I don't think you want to wait around to make a manual purge at the end of the mainwash.

Now, what would be interesting to see is if the DW could perform well without purging the hot water.
A quick calculation for a 1" pipe at 40ft leads my to believe you are purging at least 5 gallons before each run.
That basicly means purging + cycle use about the same as just the cycle on your old one.
Not having to "waste" that water would be a huge saveing one would suppose.

Further, for the holidays, it might be a good idea to time out the 1h wash cycle.
That cycle shouldn't rely on the sensors, thus, should be the most predictible cycle.
The cycle however does include timeframes for heating the water.
Thus, if you know when in the cycle the main wash is about to end, you could set a simple kitchen timer when starting the cycle and purge the lines before the final rinse.
If you are in the kitchen anyways doing other things, that could be an efficent way to cut 10 or so minutes of that cycle without compromising results.
Also, the 60min cycle does include a short drying stage IIRC. If you unload the DW right away anyway, you could save another few minutes. Just cancel the cycle and open the door once the drying stage has started. Pull out the lower rack completly and let it sit 2-3 minutes. In combination with rinse aid, that should be enough to flash-dry most items to a satisfactory degree.

So, the most time efficent flow of operations while ensuring sufficent results and acceptable usage would be:
1. Prerinse the most dirty dishes. This purges the hot water line and gives that water a use. Though prerinsing on the full cycles can harm results and the machine, it should enhance the results on the 1h wash. As there is less soil for the detergent to work on, the wash solution will be more agressive. And with that short main wash, that should give good cleaning even on heavier soils. Because the main wash is short, the agressive solution has less time to attack racks&#92seals&#92parts in general.
2. Load, set cycle, start, set kitchentimer for pre final rinse purging. When the timer rings, purge the water.
3. As you hear the pump stoping for the drying stage, execute cancel and drain. Open door, pull out lower rack, let cool for a few minutes.

That should give load turn-around times of 60-70min. I think that is managable for holiday buisness.

Few questions out of sheer curiosity:

1) Any idea on how much water you have to purge from the hot line before water gets warm?
2) Did you notice how many prewashes the machine tends to run on an average load?
3) How is your cycle distribution? Do you mainly run the sensor cycle, or do you use all the cycles frequently etc.?

Glad to hear you are at least generally happy with the machine!
 
I Never Pre-Ran Hot Water

until about a decade ago. Never heard of it, living through 4 homes. The amount that these silly new dishwashers save in water, is wasted with having to run the tap in the sink until it's hot.
 
Bob, it's a KDTE254ESS1

 

As to cycles I alternate between the auto cycle and the 1 hour cycle.  Have used the power scrub cycle once or twice.  Have mixed feelings on the 3rd rack.  75% of the time it's not an issue and I use it occasionally, but other times it interferes with stuff in the 2nd rack and I have to remove it. One thing that I find kind of nice and interesting is that both upper and lower racks have ball bearing glides, not just the second rack.

 

Loading was also a concern.  I've been a GE guy for many many years.  Prior to the most recent GE I tried a WP Gold unit.  It lasted all of 2 weeks before it went back to the store.  Hating the racking was an understatement. With the move to the KA I find I can load exactly as I did in the past and seem to have a bit more room in this unit.  I have a side by side fridge and was able to run all the shelves and bins through the KA just as I did in the GE.  That is another thing that I'd love a 30 minute cycle for.

 

The KA is rated at 39dB, very quite.  I can hear a little water sloshing occasionally but that is it.  It sips power, I checked my Smartthings watt meter when it was running and the usage was very low.

 

Henrik, that is quite an analysis.  Luckily water is fairly inexpensive here so I'm not too concerned about 5 gal of water, but it does add up.  I'll have to time some cycles with and without preheated water.  I  will try your suggestions for the holidays and keep the water hot throughout the cycle and see if that changes the timing.  This might get me to install the hot water recirculating system I bought stuff for a couple of years ago and never installed.  It's just a simple gravity system, no pump, and I can't get it to the furthest 1/2 bath that is close to 70' from the hot water supply.  If I got it to the kitchen sink that would greatly help though.
 
Matt, nice model.  With this being a filter-based system, Henrik's analysis may be close to reality.  I observed similar with Andrew's comments about adding additional prewashes.  Mine has a self-cleaning filter system and I have thrown some pretty nasty stuff at it and only once did it do something unusual.  It didn't add other prewasheses, it simply added 3 minutes to the time when it began filling for the main wash.  Conversely, for those situations, it did at a 3rd postwash rinse.  I do not like 3rd racks at all.  I'd remove it immediately as it would get in my way of frequently putting stuff in the upper rack that the 3rd rack would interfere with.  Matt, the Express Wash, the last 20 minutes is the final rinse.  It's 20 to 25 minutes long to do some water heating to aid in drying of load if heated dry isn't selected.  So you could cancel the cycle at about 40 minutes if you wish to. 
 
 
My water heater is (currently) set at 102°F.  The lower-temp flow loses more heat to the piping until it all gets warmed up so takes subjectively a little longer to get fully heated to the kitchen faucet.  I checked a few mins with no hot water having been run since yesterday evening.  It started getting warmed at approx 2.25 gal but took 2.75 to 3 to get fully "hot" (hot such as it is at 102°F).  Higher output temp will feel warmer comparatively sooner but would take about the same volume to reach full temp.

My dishwasher takes 0.8 gal per fill so that's 4 fills to get heated incoming water if the line isn't purged first, which is why I say that it's running on a tap-cold connection.  It *always* heats the main wash and final rinse to specific temperatures (varies per the selected cycle).

I normally purge during cooler months but typically don't during summer unless the load is appreciably heavy- or greasy-soiled.  I washed an 11"x14" baking dish several weeks ago with chicken grease residue, didn't purge first.  I happened to check the pump filter after that load and it had some grease residue -- either not enough detergent or the initial fill needed to be hotter to better handle it.  I ran the filter through the next load (in the other drawer) and it was clean.
 
instant hot water

My dishwasher is about 30' from the water heater and my supply lines are 3/4".
I installed a Watts Hot Water Recirculating Pump and what a difference! I rarely have anything come out dirty from the DW. It doesn't require a return line to the water heater.

steved-2017111709463607133_1.jpg
 
The Watts unit looks interesting, but a little pricey at $199.  I've got all the stuff for a gravity system for under $40, just got to install it.  I know it can be a bit tricky to get the circulation running though.
 
Grundfos makes a unit that mounts above your WH and its purpose is to give you instant hot water throughout the house.  It's not cheap, but if you don't have the third hot water return line coming back to you WH with a recirculating pump, it might be the way to go for all your fixtures.

 

Kevin 
 
 
My master bath is way at the end of the run from the water heater.  I've considered a retrofit recirculating pump (don't have a dedicated return line for it) but I have a tankless heater so those designed for installation at a tank heater won't work.
 
Our building installed reciruclating pumps off the boiler

Several years ago now and it makes a huge difference. Nearly "instant" hot water once tap is opened; this as opposed to having run the thing several seconds or whatever to bring hot water up through pipes.

IIRC downside to using recirculation pumps is perhaps an increase in energy use. But this may be offset by savings from not "wasting" all that water by running taps needlessly.

The Mobile Maid dishwasher loves it! Nice piping hot water right from start.
 
You all are motivating me to put that 3rd line in. For me it's not too difficult as the previous GE DW leaked enough to ruin 3 or 4 ceiling panels in my basement. Got to pull them so half the ceiling will be open.

Might benefit the new DW too...
 
I have a recirculating pump on my hot water. Everyone that comes over and uses the bathroom and washes their hands notices it. Wow hot water just after turning on the faucet and not having to run it to wash up. Dishwasher likes it, the washing machine fills with hot right from the start. I don't think it wastes that much energy. I can tell when the water heaters are running from a click in the wall where the return pipe goes back to the pump. They come on about once every 3-4 hours if no water is being used. I would think this is pretty normal. Surely cuts down on water and waste bills.

Jon
 

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