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I run the tap

before I start dishes, but it's not wasting water since, before I start the dishwasher, I'm cleaning the sink with dish soap and a rag, then I start the machine. But I'm not understanding how Whirlpool, Maytag, Amana's regular soil temp is 105...How can a dishwasher only use 105 degree water - that's crazy. My Maytag gets hot when washing even on normal.
 
Mark, you Maytag was at the end of a generation whereby default was 120 degrees.  Remember Maytag came out with their current version not too soon after you got your new one?  I've run hot tap before turning on dishwasher since the 60s.  I use the cold water in the line to run the garbage disposal before turning on the dishwasher.  So no wasted water. 

 

Whirlpool is the only producer of dishwasher (across their brands) which at least states what water temps might be.  It's the same with their front loaders, they state whether tumbling pattern is gentle, medium, or normal tumble speeds. 
 
 
There is of course the question of sanitizing ... but the typical consumer nowadays trained for cold-water laundry isn't likely to have a problem with warm-water dishwashing.

Mine can turn cold water into 150°F wash and 163°F final rinse, on 120v current with a cycle time of 132-ish mins which includes 7 water changes and 28 mins for drying.
 
I'm a little confused

What do you mean by "regular soil water temp" (like as in regular soil, meaning the normal cycle or auto clean)? What happens if you chose a longer cycle with hi-temp or sanitize? Does the hi-temp reach the same degree as an older model like mine?
 
Normal/regular soil is very minimal, what most people put in their dishwasher.  Will cause default temp of 105.  Current TOL Maytag says high temp will raise main wash from 105 to 129.  Sani Rinse will aise main wash from 105 to 145 and  final rinse from 140 to 155.  The respective figures for KitchenAid are default 105.  High Temp from 105 to either 130 or 140.  Sani Rinse will raise main wash from 105 to 140 and final rinse to 155.  On my Kenore Elite, default normal soil is 120.  High temp raises main wash from 120 to 140.  Sani Rinse raises main ash to 140 and final rinse to 155.  Most people rinse their dishes off and so 105 for normal average coinnditions would be fine with 105 degree main wash.  Final rinse is 140 unless Sani Rinse is selected.    

 

On mine, wouldn't surprise me Normal cycle default is 105, but it still could be 120.  My normal cycle gives me just 1 post-wash rinse, even with high temp.  Will add an extra rinse if sani rinse is selected.  For Smart Wash, I get a minimum of a purge and rinse post-wash.  With high temp I get two post-wash rinses.  Sani Rinse and TurboZone gives me 3 post-wash rinses. 
 
Whirlpool Sensor Systems

Would actually surprise me if the US WP soil sensors would not have the ability to override default temperatures.

It's basicly a given thing that a sensor cycle in the EU can alter wash temperature depending on sensing.
Depending on manufacturer, model and cycle, temps range from 40C to 75C (104F to 167F), with different degrees of granular behaviour (some only have 2 temp levels, some are actually close to infinite to my knwoledge) and ways of reacting to certain sensing scenarios (some default to max temp just when they need to run a prewash, the infinite system that I think I read about somewhere actually heats the mainwash as long as there is a change in the sensor readout).
Some manufacturers even alter final rinse temps depending on load size (big loads retain more energy and thus dry well at lower temps while smaller loads retain less heat and thus need more heat to dry).

The move to 105F default mainwashes seems just logical on a 120F hot water supply that has to be instantly at 120F for test cycles.
If you run one or two prewashes, under test conditions, the main wash fill shouldn't drop below 105F. Thus barely any, if any at all, heating is required.
With high detergent concentrations, lots of enzymes and lots of time, that should work perfectly.

I however think that somewhere in the sensor logic of WP machines, there is a path that raises the temperature automaticly to high temp levels.
I saw that some models have manuals that have "Light to Moderate", "Heavy" and "Baked on" listed next to usages. Thus, the machine senses at least 3 different soil conditions.
"Baked on" appears to work more like an extended soak mainwash as sometimes water usage is slightly lower compared to "Heavy" while cycle times appear mostly equal IIRC. Would make sense as to penetrate into crusty stuff. I suppose that is sensed via the soil sensor during main wash. I would guess that the machine waits for the detergent to dissolve, then takes a baseline turbidity reading. As baked on stuff won't come of during the short prewashes, it will now slowly dissolve and thus step by step increase turbidity during the main wash even though the prewashes showed little contamination. Thus, it decides stuff was baked on.
Heavy probably just uses lots of prewashes with a shorter and probably slightly hotter main wash. Logic being that "Heavy" just means lots of soil. As most just dried and not baked on stuff can be quickly rinsed of with pure water, the bigger amount of soil that starts that scenario is dissolved in the prewash stage. So if there is huge influx of soil during the prewashes, the "Heavy" path is chosen, with lots of water changes and a hot main wash to better combat high fat content soils.
 
Our 12 yr old Maytag heats to 155° with the sanitize option on. I believe the Hi Temp Wash option brings it to 140°. I couldn't fathom washing in any cooler than that. If I had my way it would be washing in 180° water.

I just put in a 75 gallon WH and keep it at 130° which seems plenty hot. I would love to have recirculation on the pipes but not easily doable without tearing stuff apart.
 
While the "instant" hot water thanks to recirculatin

Is rather nice, we at least now have another worry.

Thanks to all that constantly circulating very hot water, cold water taps are giving out water at around 100F. It takes ages of running the tap to purge all the "warm" water from pipes and bring in fresh from (presumably) outside the building.

For most other purposes don't really mind. However the Oko-Lavamat does not like "warm" cold water. It throws the programming off for various cycles because water heats faster than it should. So machine slices ten or more minutes of time off washing cycle to compensate.

Rinsing is not much of an issue other than things are coming out rather creased from being spun while still rather warm.
 
Launderess

I'd be ecstatic to have ten minutes slashed off the wash time!

I put a moderate load of clothes into the Panasonic - certainly not jam-packed and definitely not filthy. Machine decided to wash... and wash... and wash... for precisely 1hr 45mins. Rinsing and spinning took a further 45 minutes.

Two and a half hours to wash clothes - its no wonder clothes disintegrate.
 
"Cold water taps are giving out water at... 100F"

Do you find that, on occasion, your cold water is full of minute air bubbles, like champagne?
 
Dishwasher temperature

The owners manual for our Whirlpool does not specify the temperatures for our specific GU2300 model, but other manuals state 120*F for the normal cycle. This is fine for loads that are already washed out quite well and just need a deeper cleaning. For the loads that I wash, I always specify high temp which boosts to 140*F. I find that this is necessary for plastics to remove coffee stains from Tervis cups and Spaghetti sauce from containers. Generally, I wash my hands before starting the dishwasher to pull some hot water to the dishwasher which is about 15 feet away from the heater. However, it may not have a big benefit since these new detergents rely heavily on Enzymes. Cooler water to start would in theory give the enzymes more time in lower temps to fully work at maximum potential. If it were my choice as well, it would be heating the water to 180*F! I am sure that some of these low fill dishwashers could achieve that during their long wash time.
 
A true three pipe hot water recirculation loop will not affect the cold water. Aftermarket units like the Grundfos work/rely on pushing small amounts of hot water into the cold side...the reason for the undersink mixing valve that hot & cold supplies plug into....at your furthest fixture from the WH.

 

When plumbing a new house, I always asked the owners if they wanted a instant hot water feature on their fixtures. So much easier at that point than relying on an aftermarket system that's not 100% perfect.  

 

Back in the day those old B&G recirculating pumps we installed were not energy efficient, not to mention every shop that installed them had to have a service tool box dedicated to them with brushes, mounts, oil and couplings. I can't even tell you how many of those pumps I serviced. All to be basically replaced by little inline pumps like Taco....which now rule the trades.

 

Kevin
 
Enzymes in dishwasher detergents will help with protein based soils, but have nearly nil effect on the other large component of such soils; fats/greases/oils. For that you need alkaline pH .

In commercial settings dishes are pretty much pre-rinsed or even washed before going into the machine. Very hot water and alkaline pH detergents take care of the soiling. There are enzyme based products for institutional ware washing, but these IIRC are limited to soaking products meant for flatware.

More on circulating pumps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump

System in ours does not have a timer or any such feature; it runs 24/7 constantly circulating water though the boilers to hot water lines. Am guessing for certain times of day and or overnight when there is low demand, that hot water just sits in pipes heating up surrounding area.
 
Thank you all for the great information

My hot water pipes, except for a short run to the upstairs bath are insulated. I think it would not be too hard to follow the path of the pipe that serves the kitchen to install a return for circulation and that would put hot water a short run from the bath. I think that the amount of water I will save by not bleeding cold water to get hot will be substantial, saving on water and water heating bills.

The only thing is that a timer control would be a PITA because my weekday and weekend schedules are so different. I have my Instant Hot on a timer with two different operating periods and would probably do the same for a recirculating system. It would be great to have full temperature water for every fill of the dishwasher.
 
If you have any Smart devices you can easily have a smart outlet turn on and off at various times during the day and week.  Works if your scheduled is consistent.  You can pick up a Google assistant or an echo dot for $29 through the end of the year, and there are bargains out that on outlets that will work with either.
 

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