New energy efficiency standards for washers and dishwashers announced

[rapunzel]

"dishwashers, manufacturers should come up with a "v

I thought that they already were. Many dishwashers have a half load option and those with soil sensor technology supposedly adjust the amount of water and washing time according to turbidity.

 

[washer111]

@Whirlypoolie

Here's something else for you as well.

After visiting the local appliance store today to look at some washing machines (our Simpson TL is on its way out, and is only 3 years old), I noticed that dishwashers now include a pre-wash detergent compartment again.
Our old MOL Dishlex never had this, and never used prewash and many models still do not - so why is prewash becoming popular again?

I'd say its because the super low volume of fill water gets dirty quicker, and therefore a quick water change before the main wash means the you aren't washing in (more or less) sludge!

So here's my question. Is the US Government trying to create a system where there is a SuperSaving Eco cycle which is "always the recommended cycle" or are they pushing for more saving's on the whole?
I'd rather have the option of a High-Water use (18L) Heavy cycle with 3 separate loads of water (6L per fill, like the old Asko 1302's), than all the cycles being bastardised for the "environment."

Seriously, this is Obama's way of BS'ing to the Tree-hugging voters who would otherwise have a donkey vote or just vote for someone else. "We'll help make these machines useless, so people have to do it the way they did years ago."
Why hasn't some consumer affairs program addressed this issue: We're trying to save so much water that dishwashers have to run for 3 hours to clean dishes, sure, that saves water, but what about the energy use. A Main-wash cycle that long may require a low power heater to run constantly to prevent the water losing temperature!
This is where F&P could get ahead with their Dish-drawers. They use amounts of water that only Mielè can produce (You pay AU$800 compared to AU$1500+) with their machines, and are "genuine half load" machines. I wonder if DishDrawer's will be exempt from this ruling, because of the already low water use. See my thread below about the performance. Low water use, Super quiet, and reasonable cycles (2 hours, but that includes up to 45 minutes of Residual heat drying, so you can end the cycle, and unpack straight away if you wish)

I think at some stage in the future, we'll all just have to go out for dinner each night, that way, we don't have to worry about dishes being done...

Will it Wash?

Following the thread "Dish-Drawer Performance, Part 2," (Link below), I got some lovely comments (not naming names!) suggesting that the DD was under-loaded, and that 114 minutes was unreasonable, given some newer dishwashers can do the same in under 1 hour. In response to: "But all in all you...

www.automaticwasher.org

 

[supersuds]

Well, if the standards are already being met, maybe it won't be so bad.

 

Of course, it wouldn't be like the government to claim a lot of credit for something without good  reason, but there's a first time for everything!

 

[jerrod6]

If anyone makes a dishwasher that does this and is available

They are around and can be bought in the USA.

 

My 2006 Miele  can(not all  of the cycles use the sensors) adjust each fill intake level to the the size of the dish load in the DW.  It will also skip the water change between the pre-rinse and wash if the soil senser detects light soil.  During the first 12 to 18 minutes of the wash the sensor will again determine soil level and then increase the water temperature used, or increase the wash period time, or it will reduce the time or it will make no change.  Sometimes near the end of the wash it will again increase the time if necessary.  It will  insert a rinse into the cycle and rinse 3 times instead of 2 if the sensor detects excess oils, starch or suds during the first rinse.

 

I think many whirlpools also have some type of sensor that causes it to go through purges to remove soil and I think they also adapt their cycles although I don't have experience with them to know exactly how they do it.

 

I think Bosch TOL machines also have these features.....so as far as DW go we can get those that do it.

 

I also read somewhere that the Miele 4X series washers have some type of soil sensor that it uses to control the cycle...of course they are being removed from the  USA market now.

 

[seeitrun2006]

The Whirlpool Tall Tub DU1055XT

that we bought in Feb. 2007 has the soil and temp sensor. It is used during the pre-wash and main wash. If the water is too dirty and not hot enough it does a partial drain...then re-fill with fresh water. The washing continues to wash with no pauses. It does the sensing towards the end of the pre-wash and main wash. It does a purge at the end of the main wash prior to the rinse. Once a year the dishwasher will run longer usual to against the sensor to the quality of water used.

 

[twinniefan]

thank goodness for the twinnie

Thank goodness I still have the Haier twinnie stored away in the garage in case we end up with with machines which use 1 tablespoon of water to wash in and if they ever became mandatory to have.
Actually while thinking of it, would any U.S. manufacturers of machines ever consider mass producing twin tubs over there?,sold on the benefit of water saving by reusing wash water for multiple loads and spinning rinse water in the wash tub for any additional loads.
Regards,
Steve.

 

[ronhic]

The best thing here is that...

...we're not in the US.

Our governments have taken a completely different approach to water usage - not 'legislating' and rather letting the consumer decide what they want.

Certainly, there has been financial encouragement with rebates to the consumer for purchasing efficient appliances, but these are not uniform across the country and if an individual wants to buy an appliance that uses more water/energy, they still can.[this post was last edited: 5/20/2012-02:51]

 

[dj-gabriele]

not 'legislating' and rather of letting the consumer

Two things come into my mind!

First is my SMEG dishwasher that has the "eco" normative cycle with reduced water and energy use (less than 1kWh for a 14 place setting load) and the "forte e veloce" which is "strong and fast" that in one hour washes and dries encrusted pots and pans compared to the three hours of the normative cycle. It uses 20 litres of water compared to 13 and 1,8 kWh compared to 1 but does the job in much less time.

Second example are BSH machines with variomatic system where one can select varispeed to achieve energy saving or hi-washing speed.

Same goes for washing machines with "cottons ECO" where the cycle lasts almost three hours or "cottons standard" where the cycle last more than one hour less. The results are the similar but energy and water use won't be.

Only very BOL machine don't have these options so it's all up to the customer to adjust the appliance to his/her needs.

 

[washer111]

I think letting the consumer decide what they want is important. Anyone ever heard of Choice?

BUT, manufacturers should make warnings on the front of the machine for non-manual readers that are stuck to the display such as:
"USING ECO CYCLE WILL SAVE AT LEAST 7L OF WATER IN EACH WASH." (Example taken from dj-gabriele's Smeg machine).

Maybe then people might realise how much they are wasting.

Our DD only does a Wash and 2x rinse (newer models now feature an extra rinse in Heavy though), so the only savings are via reduced temperature washes, which would save very negligible amounts if you ran piping hot solar heated water to the machine...

 

[washer111]

Half-Load Options

@rapunzel

i think these options are kinda stupid. You obviously have to choose whether to wash your small stuff at the top, and have the plates at the bottom rinsed a little (if you work like that), or have plates in the bottom getting washed, with some spray (maybe) reaching the top, rinsing stuff up there...

Thats why I prefer the DD, which is genuinely around half sized (its about 10% bigger than half in each drawer). My recent "bob-load" strategy means we don't use the machine every day, but instead every 2-3 days (we just lasted about 3 days till I ran the machine today).
We used to run our old Dishlex every 1-3 days on the Quick30 or Eco cycle in our old house, and that was only with negligible amounts of plates and stuff in there, so the DD works better for us in that manner

 

[logixx]

I can totally see how American dishwashers could be more energy and water: just forget about the US concept and get decent European technology - period!

Let have a look at what manual say: current top-of-the-line Whirlpool dishwasher: max cycle time with options selected 4:40 hrs. Huh? Total cycle time on our Euro Bosch with options selected: more than two hours less.

Water consumption: current top-of-the-line Kenmore dishwasher uses 26 liters / 6.8 gal on Normal with heavy soil sensed. Modern European units get away with 10 liters / 2.6 gal less. And no, the Kenmore still lists the typical cycle time as around two hours - just like a Euro dishwasher.

Speed: said touch-screen-controlled Kenmore has a One-Hour-Wash cycle. Takes 60 minutes without drying and *just* guzzles 30 liters / 7.9 gal. Again, our 6 years old Bosch does the job in 40 minutes using two thirds less water and even dries the dishes.

Even among modern Euro dishwashers there are vast differences. Example: a Whirlpool unit versus a Bosch/Siemens. Both can be had for 650 Euros. So how did both units fare when tested by our consumer magazine? The Whirlpool used more energy, water and even time than the Bosch to complete the cycle and dishes weren't completely clean. The Bosch took 11 liters, .88 kWh and 150 minutes to perfectly wash ever single piece. The WP wash also very noisy at over 50 dB.

Bottom line: it seems TOL American dishwashers - while they surely can clean dishes perfectly - seem to be as efficient as BOL European units.

Oh, and what about that line in Kenmore/KitchenAid manuals: Hi Temp raises the water temp from 105F to 120F. Geez, our Bosch washes hotter than that on ECO.

Alex

 

[frigilux]

I went to the Bosch USA appliance site and their new TOL series dishwasher (called 800 something-or-other) uses only 2.2 gallons of water for a normal cycle.  The machine lists for $1999.  Sound level of 39 decibels.  My LG is 45 decibels and it's really quiet! There's actually a very big audible difference between 39 and 45 decibels. That Bosch must be close to absolute silence.

 

[arbilab]

A TWO-THOUSAND DOLLAR DISHWASHER? Surely it comes with an illegal alien who loads and unloads it.

 

[washer111]

How on earth can you use 8L of water to wash dishes with a full sized DW? You'd need two spray arms with pin-sized (Really small, and I mean REALLY SMALL) spray arms that alternate to be able to have any decent pressure/water movement...

I also suppose the arm would have to be of an "orbiting" type, since have 12 or so pin sized holes might be too much! I can semi understand with a DD how you can use so little, but it moves that much water around something must be wrong (it also always fills the same, not matter whether someone is showering, watering the garden etc)!!!

The ones I saw at the appliance store used just 13L for a regular cycle, and only had around 3 holes per side of the arm - similar to the wash-arm of a KA model with the 4 way Hydrosweep (if thats what you call it).

Here is something: A GE Potscrubber 1200 will wash the dishes in around 40 minutes, and fill itself 6 times - using around 10Gal of water (35L) - a modern machine can do the same (albeit w/o around 3 rinses) in around 60 minutes and use just 10L!

I dunno how the manufacturers do this, but most of them must include a Dumbledore or something in their dishwashers to make everything actually work!!!

 

[jerrod6]

My  DW from 2006 does have alternating spray arms and on some cycles can use about 3.5 gallons with light soil. So I am sure technology has improved in 6 years.

 

Claiming  sound decibles is tricky since no company in the USA is really held to any sound standard.  They can say what they want.  Also tricky is what part of the cycle they are taking the measurement.  In mine you can hardly hear it when it is washing or spraying the dishes.  I CAN hear it when it is pumping the water down the drain.  Of course the drain period only lasts 45 seconds or so while the spraying periods  lasts a lot longer.  I figure they took the measurement during the spray period and not while the water was being pumped out. 

 

[jetawayjuan]

Stop screwing with washers and dishwashers and mess around with ac units!!!

 

[jerrod6]

Ac units

Oh..... they've been messed with.   Many now come with dual compressors a larger and a smaller one.  The smaller one is used during normal periods when you don't need super cooling.  When It gets very hot or there is a heat demand in your home both of the compressors will run.

 

The thing is that many of these newer units move more air than the older ones and  they don't always produce air that is as cold as older models so sometimes existing duct work cannot handle the air volume well.  Sometimes they don't remove humidity as well either.   I got lucky when I replaced my older system because the ducts in the house are over-sized and I have air returns in every room except the kitchen and bathrooms.  Larger rooms have returns near the floor and ceilings, so I don't notice any additional noise.  The system cools fast and very well, but if I had smaller ducts or less air returns there would be noise problems.

 

There is also the problem of new construction where contractors have cut corners and used flex duct which can sag and bend.  Read an  HVAC forum and you will see many many complaints about these newer efficiency systems how they  operate and how they have been installed.

 

 

[tolivac]

and for newer HVAC units compressor and blower motors are used with VFD's to control the speed and capacity of the compressors and fans,thus using less power.

 

[arbilab]

6 years ago I "invented" a variable-capacity cooling system, eliminating expansion valves and implementing efficient 3-phase inverter motors. IOW a system that would scale itself to whatever conditions it encountered, using the least possible energy.

Also solving predictable problems like high-current electronics operated outdoors in summer, with a sealed suction manifold heatsink keeping condensation out. I wrote it up as a patent abstract and think I still have it in MS Word if anyone wants to see. What I DIDN'T have was a quarter-million dollars to build and refine prototypes and pay patent lawyers.

 

[tolivac]

A building I used to work in had variable capacity chillers and VFD drives on the evaporator water pumps.and in 1939 when the building was originally built-they had a variable capacity pump and blower system using DC motors-the Motor gen sets that provided the 250VDC are still in the building basement.Would have liked to see that system work-was a Ward Leonard DC system.