New energy star washers - good or bad?

[kb0nes]

@tolivac

Was the RFI from the LG washer something that occurred when it was running a cycle or while in standby? I would suspect more interference from a poorly filtered inverter since that is high power. Of course a dirty switcher power supply for the rest of the electronics could cause trouble too. The good thing is that at 7 Mhz it would be easily filtered. Its a high enough frequency that ferrites give lots of isolation impedance, but low enough that it needs the power line to be an antenna. A simple common mode choke on the power cord would all but eliminate it.

The problems with RFI both to and from electronics isn't a problem with the electronics themselves, its a problem of greed. Both the consumer demanding low cost and the manufacturer demanding high profits lead to the elimination of effective filtering. By and large the manufacturers can get away with this since such a small percentage of consumers are likely to experience problems. Add to this that the FCC is now a paper tiger and enforcement is a bit of a joke (more money and greed issues I'm sure).

Personally I like electronics, perhaps to some extent because I understand them and can fix them. I like the features and functionality they give. Yes it is true that mechanical timers have minimal issues with RFI, but I don't really want to return to the olden days. An old wash board and tub don't have issue with RFI either...

As for durability of electronics in appliance controls the issue is the same, greed kills it. Properly designed electronic controls should be as reliable as anything mechanical but proper design costs money. Heck in the cost cut world of today I bet the mechanical timers might well be less reliable then vintage ones too.

 

[pierreandreply4]

if you look at my suet set they are 2004 models Post# 702329 , Reply# 13 the controls are semi electronics as i have to rotate the center dial to the cycle i need the only trouble is since they are in the main bathroom on the second floor the humidety of the bathroom or cold air since they are behind an outside wall can lead that the dryer sensor can take a bit more time to detec wet clothes but i can live with this since they are on there 10 year of use

 

[mark_wpduet]

My duet set is on it's

9th year of use......It has a heater

But I'm shocked about the cell phone and oven comment. I had to google it! That's CRAZY Dangerous!!!

 

[tolivac]

The LG washer was emitting the 7Mhz signal even when on standby-the owner who is a DX'er that wrote for the magazine-unplugs the washer while he is listening.It should boil down to the manufacturer of the machine-cost or not-they should see that the machine is not emitting any spurious signals-whether in use or not-and on standby-these machines still draw some power to keep the electronics energized-what power companies call "phantom loads"not so green,-is it?When a mechanical machine is off-its off-no power drawn and NO spurious emissions.The machine could be emitting on other bands,too-yes the filters may help-but may not eleminate the spurious emissions entirely-esp if a receiver is used nearby or on the same line.A filter is not going to reduce emissions truely emitted thru the air like a transmitter.Some of the signals are radiated thru the air not conducted on the line cord.The largely squarewave signals used in these digital devices are rich in harmonic radiation-many bands.
For devices activated by cellphones or portable handi-talkie radios-this is a problem.At the studio site I worked at some of their equipment was inadvertianly activated by signals from a handi-talkie-we used those a lot to talk to each other while working in that large building.The security staff used them,too.At another radio station-their Studer RR tape deck would mysteriously start when the FM trtansmitter was on-in the same building as the studio.Me and another guy were trying to figure out if the tape machine was responding to the RF signal or the switching signals from the transmitters SCR regulator in the HV supply-think it might have been the regulator-it regulated the primary 208-240V 3Ph primary voltage to the transmitters HV rectifier transformer.The tape deck maker had to get involved and install filters on the powerline input to the machine.This should have been done in the beginning-these machines are used by a LOT of radio stations-many where the transmitter is in the same location as the studio.

 

[launderess]

Internal heaters on consumer front loaders sold in the USA all suffer from the same limitations; they run on 120v/15amp service. That limits the total heating power to <1500watts. That is not enough power to bring even the thimble full of water used by these modern front loaders anywhere near very hot to boiling, especially of one wishes to start with tap cold water. Well it probably can happen but with a very long time period. By the time washer reached the temp laundry likely is already clean from being beating about for so long.

Regarding *computer* and or electronic controlled washing machines, one respectfully disagrees with the above posts.

Can see with a top loading washing machine having a central beater such things being considered not worth bothering with, however am here to tell you on front loaders it makes a world of difference.

For years one swore up and down and refused to budge away from my older mechanical partially electronic controlled Miele washer, then came the AEG and my eyes were opened. The AEG (and one supposes other modern computer controlled front loaders) are simply better machines all way round in many aspects.

The ability of these computer controlled machines to monitor various conditions including what is going on inside the drum is truly amazing. No where is this more apparent than in spin cycles. The Miele will only do a set number of balance attempts; if things can be distributed properly well enough, but if they cannot tough cheese as the machine *will* go into spin. This often leads to out of balance loads banging, clanging and in some cases causing machines to leap about. Not so with the AEG. This machine monitors what is going on and if the load isn't balanced it will vary rotation rhythm and such to get the load where it needs to be. If for some reason the AEG cannot and though it hasn't happened to us personally, the machine will drop the spin speed to a level that can be handled with conditions on the ground.

The other great thing about computer controlled AEG and other washers is the ability to match what is going on with the pump versus spinning. My Miele will slow down spinning to cope with heavy water extraction (say if one is laundering very absorbent loads such as terry toweling), but if the timer times out before it can ramp up to full spin speed for the proper amount of time, again tough cheese.

With the AEG OTOH machine will slow the drum to allow heavy amounts of water to drain, but it also will vary spin speeds and prolong the cycle until the required extraction is completed.

 

[frigilux]

I agree with your assessment of the value of electronic controls for front-loaders, Launderess.

The pump on my Frigidaire shuts off when it senses little or no water flowing through it. This is great during balancing protocols (which are virtually silent) and the final spin, which is noticeably quieter when the pump shuts off. It kicks back in during deceleration at the end of the final spin to drain any accumulated water.

The fill sensor does a great job of matching water level to load size, unlike my older front-loaders, where small loads simply bobbed around in the excessive amount of water, rather than doing the lift / drop.

Frankly, I think more of the AW crowd would appreciate electronically-controlled machines if the quality of said electronics was better. Constant reports of frequently-replaced motherboards and flimsy control pads gone bad do nothing to endear them to our savvy members.

 

[kb0nes]

"frequently-replaced motherboards and flimsy control pads"

Eugene,

Indeed the manufacturers are destroying their illusion of quality with problems, especially with the people that pay attention.

I think a fair amount of the failures are from the tactile touch pads themselves. These are a pretty low cost and low reliability way to create a keypad. And they don't respond well to environmental issues like moisture and humidity. Unlike the solid state electronics which are quite immune to moisture. Eventually they will move to capacitive touch panels (like on a smart phone), these will be a lot more reliable. The days of high quality discrete mechanical switches are over for appliances due to cost. Even high end industrial machines are moving away from discrete switches to tough screens due to cost, versatility and reliability.

The other issue I am suspicious of is that service companies may simply "shotgun" trouble shoot a machine by replacing the main board. Technicians need to be trained enough not to waste their customers time and money by not knowing how to repair a machine properly. Pity we don't have an ODBII communication standard for appliances to aid troubleshooting. Its equally sad that the electronic main boards aren't repaired when they are swapped out. The failures are often either power supply related or one of the interface transistors or relays which are easily fixed. Of course repairing the board could cost as much or more then a new one. The manufacturers and parts retailers are doing well selling the replacement boards

 

[passatdoc]

question for Frigilux re: Frigidaire FL

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Frigidaire have to tweak the programs of their FL line-up to improve performance? Their FL line used to have model numbers of 4172, 4173, 4174. Then they changed the numbers to 4072, 4073, and 4074. From what I read, they increased wash times (?? and water levels too??) to obtain better results. I recall seeing a Consumer Reports chart which included both series of model numbers, and the newer "0" series came out with noticeably better scores (based on their criteria). Most of the Frig FLs I see for sale now are from the "0" series rather than the "1" series.

I keep up on Frigidaire's models in the event that my 2140 were to die suddenly (spider). Due to the configuration of my laundry area, I need to stack my machines, and I like the idea that Frig FLs are still 36" high, thus producing a stack a little over six feet tall. I am 5'10" and the dryer height is perfect for me, right at chest level---I don't have to reach up or down. Some of the larger FLs are 39-40" tall, to gain that extra capacity, and that produces a stack with top of the dryer as high as 6'8"---too high for comfort! Electrolux models are 38" inch, and a stack of Electroluxes would be the very maximum I could do comfortably.

PS I get good results with the 2140, but it's a water hog compared to new machines, plus I generally select Extra Rinse unless I am in a hurry. Extra Rinse can be added to most cycles, even Delicate and Handwash----Quick Wash is the only one to which Extra Rinse cannot be added.

 

[retropia]

Water shortages in certain places like California are bad now and will only get worse. The way utilities tend to deal with shortages is to raise prices, and I suspect that will drive consumer demand for ever more water-frugal appliances.

Of course, as we know from our discussions, using less water gets to the point of diminishing returns.

I wonder if some enterprising appliance manufacturer will bring back the suds-saver concept, in an easier-to-use format? Let's say that Acme Manufacturing could get Energy Star certification for a suds-saver washer that might use more water per complete cycle than competitors, but gets brownie-points for re-using the soapy wash water.

While I don't see the average homemaker of today using a traditional suds-saver like in Ye Olde Days, I could imagine her using one that had a built-in tank to hold the soapy water for the next wash. I suppose you'd have to have a built-in heater to at least heat the wash water back up to an adequate level of warmth for the next wash. That's the only way I'd consider using one.

 

[logixx]

Suds-Saver

Bosch dishwashers in Europe already do this, as well as Whirlpool ones. KtchenAid has or will release a model in the US.

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...hwasher-recycles-water-as-it-washes/index.htm

 

[mrb627]

Suds Saving Pedestal

Instead of a stupid drawer, use that space as a holding tub for a suds saver mechanism. Sems to make sense to me.

Malcolm

 

[launderess]

Or, Simply Follow Commercial Dishwasher's

And save the final rinse water to be used for the next wash. This could mean also having separate feeds for "fresh" water and water pumped from the "tank".

 

[mark_wpduet]

110 V limitations

So is the dishwasher..and it gets hot.

At first, I was very surprised how hot my Duet got on sanitary, but the entire outside of the machine feels like a dishwasher that's been running over an hour when it's doing the sanitary cycle......which, incidentally, I've been using a lot lately for all my whites and sheets

 

[logixx]

It's actually the final rinse water that is saved.

Pedestals should be used in a different way?

Pipe:

http://www.google.com/patents/EP254...X&ei=LkY5UsvRMcfD4APm5YDADw&ved=0CHAQ6AEwCDgo

 

[frigilux]

PassatDoc-- The change in model numbers you referenced coincided with lengthened wash times for certain cycles, notably the Normal cycle, which is used by Consumer Reports for testing purposes. They test all washers using the heaviest soil option available with the Normal cycle. When choosing the heaviest soil option, wash time is nearly doubled compared to the 2010 machine I have. The length of a complete cycle went from around 50 minutes to 80. That took the Frigidaire's cleaning score from "Good" to "Excellent". Water consumption was not increased. The machine retains its Tier III Energy Star rating, which is the highest Energy Star designation.

Don't get me started on all the flaws with the way Energy Star assesses water and energy use for kitchen and laundry appliances. Their protocols are beginning to improve, mostly due to Consumer Reports' constant (and valid) criticism of their assessment methodology. CR's water/energy-use assessments are grounded in real-world use. I pay no attention to the yellow Energy Star sticker on any appliance I purchase---except to use it for the utility rebate, of course!

logixx-- Thanks for the link to Whirlpool's proposed heat pump-coupled washer/dryer pair. I'll bet AW member Jamie (Pulsator), who works for Whirlpool, has all kinds of inside information on what's to come concerning household appliances. Unfortunately, he can't share much of it with us.

 

[henene4]

The thing is: ONE brand sells a german toploader with suds saver kind thing, but It uses the sotner-rinse-water for the mainwash. That's senseless. The softener reduces the wash performance of the detergent. And it is TL...
So i think on, why don't FL or, especially, washer-dryers use it. Like the washer-dryer using it's last rinse water for the dring-cooling OR the next first rinse. The condensor could be flushed with water as the BSH air condenors do and if it is used for the rinse, the softner-residue could be helpfull on increasing rinse performance while decreasing suds. And the washers would get more stability by the tank in the bottom and they could have enough space if they would build in short-way dampers or use any kind of ropes and pulleys so the downwards forces can be converted into upwards-forces so the dampers are only at the top of the drum. Same could be used with TLs so the sideway-forces would be transfomed into vertical forces so the dampers could work more effective...

 

[kenmorewasher10]

bad

they are really bad and it doesn't fill up to where you see the water fill up to the top