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You need to remember that whilst an individual appliance is limited to roughly 1800 watts the circuit isn’t necessarily the same. In AU we plug a 2400 watt washer and 2400 watt dryer into a circuit shared with the kitchen, dishwasher at 2300 watts that is 240v 20amps for a total of 4800 watts capacity. For years I ran a 1970s 3200watt Miele and 1990s 2400watt Miele and and 2000 watt iron and 2000 watt dryer on a 15amp 240v circuit at Michaels mums. As long as the elements were all cycling on and off at different times and intervals, it was never a problem.

A 120v 20amp circuit should be capable of supporting 2400watts over the entire circuit, that is less than both machines theoretically pull. Aren’t modern houses by code in the US required to have a dedicated 20amp circuit for the laundry? I realize the 80% loading rule, but none of these appliances continuously pull maximum wattage.

We regularly can pull over 6.5kw over a circuit rated for 4800watts. A breaker doesn’t trip the second it hits the maximum capacity there is usually a delay that varies based on how big the overload is. With resistive heating The load will always cycle, so the washer won’t pull maximum wattage for 30 minutes if it’s hot and cold fill.
 
Yes love,

But the Miele plugs for USA are 120v/15amp, which means much less power.

15 amp at 120v gives total of 1800 watts. While the same amps at 20 goes up to 2400 watts.

At least here you can plug a 15amp 120v plug into a 20amp socket, but not vice versa. If Miele is specifying a 15 amp power supply one assumes that is what people are going to move with.

Twenty amp circuits on 120v are normally used for air conditioners and refrigerators, in fact IIRC code may specify such. Think it is due to the amount of power such things draw and or at start-up. Such "dedicated" circuits however usually aren't supposed to have anything else going at same time.

One assumes all this palaver comes from Miele now being totally gun shy about deviating from the standard American 120v power supply found in a majority of American homes. Having tried for years to get Americans to come around to 120v/220v "dryer" plugs and seeing their sales not move much (for washing machines), they've given up that track mostly except for the professional/commercial lines.
 
Modern US circuits might have 15 amp plugs, but that doesn’t mean the breaker is 15 amps. The modern US standard is 12 guage 20 amp, 120v. The laundry area should have at least one of these dedicated.

Our circuits are 20 amps but the outlets and plugs are each only 10.

It’s the wire gauge that sets the circuit breaker size, not necessarily the outlet on the wall

If all circuits were only 15 amp then you’d be pressed to plug two appliances in over 4 or 5 duplex outlets.

You should be able to plug the 15 amp washer and 15 amp dryer into a duplex outlet with 15 amp sockets that is wired on a 20amp circuit and have no issue at all. I grant you that both on a duplex outlet wired with 14guage and a 15 amp breaker you may be in trouble.

http://https//www.thespruce.com/matching-wire-size-to-circuit-amperage-1152865
 
Yes, but that's assuming machines will go into

a dedicated "laundry area". Ours has no such thing nor do many older or even relatively modern NYC apartments.

Yes, it is the fuse/circuit breaker that will determine total amps that can be drawn. Equally yes, it is possible a wall socket is wired to a 20 amp circuit even though it has a 15amp plug.
 
My laundry area has a dedicated 20 amp 120v outlet and a dedicated 30 amp 240 dryer circuit. If the converter is used, wouldn't that technically be two 30 amp 120v circuits that are limited by the built in fuses (15amp iirc) ?
 
From manual

The dryer is equipped with a power
cord 6' 7" (2 m) with plug. The dryer is
connected to a NEMA 5-15 socket with
an electrical connection of 120 V,
60 Hz, 15 A.

If a NEMA 14-30 socket is
provided on-site for the dryer, the
Miele connection adapter* can be
used."

Observe the following description to
avoid damage to the dryer.

Tip: You can order the connection
adapter directly from Miele (USA or CDN).
–
The connection adapter has a NEMA
14-30 plug and two NEMA 5-15
socket-side connectors. The dryer
and washing machine can therefore
be connected to the 120 V / 60 Hz
electricity supply.

– The connection adapter is equipped
with two 15 A fuses which protect
both the connected appliances and
the connection adapter.

Washer:

ELECTRICAL INSTRUCTIONS
This installation should be performed by
an experienced and qualified
technician, in accordance with local
codes and regulations.
The washing machine is supplied with a
5’ 3" (1.6 m) long, 3 wire cord, ending in
a NEMA 5-15P plug, ready for
connection to a 120 V, 15 A, 60 Hz, AC
power supply.
The proper outlet can be purchased
from an electrical supply dealer
 
My laundry is just 20A 230V radial on a dedicated RCBO (combined breaker and GFCI) as per the current regs here.

The T1 draws typically about 700W in use although it's rated maximum 1.1kW

The W1 in the version here can draw up to 2.4kW during heating, so I assume the US version will just have a smaller and thus slower heater.

With any appliances rated for use with a 15 amp plug and socket there's an assumption that the socket can provide the rated power. If it can't, you really need to rewire.

If the two machines cab plug into a single dryer outlet using an adaptor they would make sense but, if you've only 15 amps possible on a single outlet there's no way you can run a washer and a dryer off it!

Also hot fill won't really help that much unless the tank is located right next to the washer as it will fill before it's drawn any hot water. That's been the main reason lower water consumption washers in Europe don't bother with hot fill anymore. All older machines here hooked to hot and cold.
 
Hi James,

The two TOL models here have always been hot and cold fill, and since the 3xxx series it’s easy to enable/ disable hot fill.

We have solar hot water so we have hot fill enabled, using the Miele’s onboard diagnostics, starting with a water temp of 50c, it shows 38 after a fill to low wash level with nothing in the drum. If you have a full load of towels it will get up to about 45, by the time the load is saturated. That’s starting with a room temperature of 20c. This is allowing for the standing water in 10m of piping to flush.

That will make a difference to the heating time, you start talking about a temperature rise of 20-30c rather than 40-60.

Cheers

Nathan
 
You can order Miele machines with hot and cold fill but oddly enough the entire range or machines at TOL and BOL.dropped hot fill in the 1990s and 2000s. Almost without exception washers older than that had hot and cold valves.

There's never been any issue with access to an abundant on demand supply of hot water water. Usually you've a hot tank indirectly heated by the central heating system and solar is actually obligatory in new build. So typically there's always 250 to 300L of hot water sitting there in modern homes.

The manufacturers seemed to take the idea that the pipe lag was rendering hot fill pointless with very low water usage machines and also that hot fill was difficult to mix down to correct temp as sometimes you could get full 60°C+ hot water flowing in and typically they don't have sensors on the supply. To do it right you need a thermostatic mixer valve that would limit flow to what we the machine preset is. otherwise, you have to be very conservative about not dumping in a lot of tap hot water that could be more than the wash preset temp.

I think it was also likely an element of lowest common denominator standardisation of designs for many of the manufacturers (although at Miele prices it makes no sense). They just avoided an extra valve, plumbing and so on.

I know Miele dishwashers here can be connected to hot water only, which reduces energy use by about 50% (but you do need to factor in your hot water costs if it's not totally solar based,)

I would he surprised if Miele's US design makes much use of hot water hook up. It's largely been the German manufacturers who drove away from hot fill in Europe. The old British and Italian ones always used it in the past.

The big issue with solar heating here in Ireland is that it's only abundant for half the year. Because of the latitude and cloud cover it's only really effective in summer months. In winter, even with very large collectors adapted for low light, I can't get the tank beyond 30°C with solar and often it doesn't really heat at all. In summer on a bright day you could nearly boil the tank if it wasn't related properly.

Out winter sunshine (direct sunshine) averages as little as 1 to 2 hr per day in winter and 50% of the year there's complete cloud cover. It’s a very different climate to Australia or to most of the US. Lots of fluffy white cloud and lots of highly changeable sunlight levels. Also in winter due to the latitude (further north then Edmonton in Canada) the days are short. Sunset is at about 4:20pm and sunrise isn’t until 8:30am in mid winter. Vs 4:50am and after 10pm in mid summer.

So typically, solar only here isn't viable at all. They’re always combined with a hearing source like natural gas, lpg, oil, wood pellet or increasingly (little by little) heat pumps.

[this post was last edited: 1/9/2018-04:44]
 
Just checked again

So, let's go through this step by step.

With a split 240V connection, there is no question the machines would be fine.

On 120V, you either have a 15A or a 20A breaker.
A 15A circut can support easily 1800W, a 20A circut 2400W.

We have to go from the same route that these would run on an independent circut that they have to their own or only share with minor other loads (light bulb or so).
That would only make sense as even American laundry appliances should load out a circut pretty significantly on their own.

Now, if we assume the dryer uses an A++ heatpump design copied from the EU, cycle times are far over 2h for a full load with less then 2kWh used, so the total continous load should be less the 1kW.

This means that with a 20A breaker you will be most definetly fine.

On a 15A circut, it might get tight.
If the dryer pulls 700W as normal running current, and the washer keeps itself to 1100W (which it should be abled to at 900-1000W heating power), we are ever so slightly clear, and as the washer should never heat for more then an hour, the 20% rule does not apply.

Further, I suppose that Miele could use some technologys to reduce peak current when for example the heatpump is starting up.
Electrolux (under the AEG brand) manages to sell dryers at peak usage of 700W here, mainly because they heavily rely to inverter technology to my knowledge. Starting a heatpump that is not controlled can spike the current a lot, same with a motor.
Inverters can start at low voltage/low amperage and slowly ramp up both to prevent that spikeing.

So I think it should be doable as long as they are alone on a circut. As soon as they share their circut (kitchen for example) there is basicly no chance of that.
 
The one thing I think you can be sure of though is they’ve designed these machines to work work a 15amp socket outlet. So unless you’re using some very odd, very old, wiring it should be fine.

Also with most US houses it’s not all that difficult to pull new circuits through. You’ve rarely got solid internal walls and you’ve often got laundries in basements with easy access to wiring. However, I suspect these machines will find themselves in a lot of high end apartments and smaller urban homes more than you’re average machine does.

They’re actually ideally suited to being used in places you can’t easily connect a traditional US laundry setup and can definitely work in a laundry closet type setup (with some degree of ventilation as the dryer does need a source of room temperature air, even if it’s not producing very noticible amounts of heat, it’s still advisable not to keep it in any kind of airtight closet as you’ll reduce the efficiency to the heat pump)

Also bear in mind the dryer is an inductive load and the washer is primarily a resistive load. So you’re really looking at the peak wattage on the dryer being an inrush to the heat pump motor, not a sustained heating load. The washer’s main load would be the heating element,

From what I’ve seen of my T1 dryer it doesn’t come anywhere near the max rated load other than for a few brief moments when the heat pump starts. If they’ve smoothed that out to cope with the lower voltages in the US, then it will be very gentle on the breakers.

Also bear in mind the profile of breakers typically allows for a brief inrush.
 
"Proofing"

@Reply #44 (Launderess's Which? link):

"The proofing agent can be used on all sorts of items. Miele claims it works especially well on tablecloths so that if your guest spills their wine, it will simply bead and roll off the material."

No doubt you'll get some who'll try to proof their underwear.
 
I just wish Miele had kept their classic styling. The W3922/W3923 especially just looked 'right'. These new machines look like they could be BSH or AEG-Electrolux...
 
Most USA appliances are expecting you to provide them hot water. Dishwashers expect 120F water, and some washer manufacturers suggest that too. Giving appliances cold water is an exception because the heaters are not powerful enough to get cold water of say 38-40F up to temperature adequately without causing excessively long cycles and more energy used in the appliance than is allowed.

Miele is about the only appliance I know that will allow a cold fill in a dishwasher or washer.
 
Cold Fill Dishwasher

Have always wondered how that works. I mean if dishes are hot from first wash, then hitting them with cold water (until it reached desired heated temperature) is a sure way to cause damage.

Cold fill washing machines:

My AEG OKO-Lavamat is cold fill and if am being honest not totally a fan.

I mean if one has plenty of hot water (which I do), can save some time and bother by either pre-soaking or doing a quick pre-wash in cold, then filling with hot and let the machine "boost" temp up to 140F to 200F.
 
Vintage European DWs that used larger water volumes usually had a cool down at the end of the main wash to prevent thermal shock.
Modern water stingy machines seem to work very well the way Louis describes.
The BSH group might be an exception favouring heat exchangers, zeolit thechnology and who knows what else.[this post was last edited: 1/10/2018-03:56]
 
Cold fill dishwashers

Bosch use the heat exchanger system. The downside is that should you move house, you have to 'empty' the extra tank, else the water spills out when you tilt the machine to carry it. The instructions for doing so still leaves a substantial amount in the system. Not entirely satisfactory.

When Which? tested dishwashers back in the Sixties, they discovered that cold fill worked a bit better than hot fill. The idea being that cold water assisted in removing the soil from the dishes, whereas hot water helped to bake it on.

These days it's probably a moot point, what with the efficient enzymes in modern detergents, and the time it takes to get hot water from a combi-boiler feed - the 'hot' water will likely still be cool entering the machine. It is in my case - I have the Bosch dishwasher linked to the spare (unused) washing machine hot tap, under the sink. The Panasonic washing machine is cold fill only, so only has one fill hose.
 
The top line of Miele's new DW here in the USA use a cold fill with a heat exchanger. If I am not mistaken it uses less electric than using a hot fill if you are using electric to heat your water. Of course the times are longer, about 30 minutes. Miele tested using an incoming water temp of 50F.
 
You can connect Miele dishwashers to cold or hot fill. It's just a matter of changing a menu option on ours.

I know someone who had an old Bosch dishwasher on hot fill (probably at >60ºC) for about 20 years. She replaced it was a pretty bargain-basement Bosch machine very much lower quality than the one it replaced and the hot fill was connected in error and caused damage to the machine.
 
No empty refilable TwinDos Containers

It seems for the USA versions of W1 washing machines. So other than using Miele's offerings that seems to be that apparently. Thus also no swapping the second container from that bleach to say fabric softener or any other additive.

If this is true and there truly aren't any other options using that Miele TwinDos system is likely going to become very dear. Those containers aren't exactly cheap and certainly will be less so after MieleUSA adds on the various costs incurred from important to these shores.

Wonder if the option is still buried in the programming and thus one could simply have the empty container kits sent from Europe.
 
Also from the owner's manual

It does not seem possible to change the detergent "options" for the TwinDos settings. One can increase or decrease amounts dispensed. Select whether one is washing whites or colours, but that is far as things seem to go.

Furthermore while previous WI models sold in Asia and Europe give options for dispensing fabric softener or starch "automatically" via the TwinDos system, no such directions are found for American version. Such products can only be dispensed via the fabric softener compartment in detergent drawer.

From manual:

Settings
86
Language ú@
The display can be set to appear in
one of several different languages.
The flag ú@ after the word Language acts
as a guide in case a language which is
not understood is set.
The language selected is saved to
memory.
TwinDos
You can set the dispensing quantities
and check the level of the detergent
cartridges from UltraPhase 1 and
UltraPhase 2.
Change dosage
The set values for dispensing
UltraPhase 1 and UltraPhase 2
detergent can be checked and
corrected.
Check level
The level is displayed with a bar chart.
The display only works correctly when
the following conditions are met:
1. New (full) cartridges are used.
2. The cartridges must not be removed
from the washing machine in the
interim period.
Tip: The level can be corrected via the
Miele@mobile app.
Select detergent
The detergent selected cannot be
changed.
Degree of soiling
Allows selection of default setting for
level of soiling.
The levels of soiling are light, normal,
and heavy.
The default setting is normal.
Buzzer volume
The buzzer sounds to let you know the
program has finished. The buzzer can
be set to be louder or quieter.
Options
¡V Off
¡V ƒ¤ ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒrƒ¢ (quiet)
¡V ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ (loud) (default setting)
Keypad tone
Each touch of a sensor button is
confirmed with an audible tone.
Options
¡V Off
¡V ƒ¤ ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒr ƒrƒ¢ (quiet)
¡V ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒr ƒr ƒrƒ¢ (default setting)
¡V ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ ƒ¤ (loud)

One wonders if the USA washers will come pre loaded with Miele UltraPhase products and that coupon good for a generous resupply. Otherwise cannot see many bothering even after their initial "free" (if offered) supply runs out. [this post was last edited: 1/10/2018-23:54]
 

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