new rules will allow only 3.1 gallons to be used to wash each load of dishes.

[Chetlaham]

Indeed, 12.1 glorious gallons of water in a 50 minute cycle.
 
 
Cycle chart on page 5:
 
 
https://www.searspartsdirect.com/manual/k6xvxy5pl6-000432/ge-gsd600g-01-dishwasher-parts
 
 

 
 
I disagree that doing dishes by hand uses the same amount of water. A Potscrubber can fit one to two days worth of dishes, pots and pans, glasses, bowls, utensils, saucers, plates, platters, ect all in one load and clean them to perfection. The pic has a lot of shadows and gray, so I don't think it does full justice.
 
 

 

[Chetlaham]

Rinse Aid

Yup- good point! In commercial machines its usually pumped into the internal water supply for the rinse. I personally don't use rinse-aid. I think its only for hard water and HE dishwashers. I've found that when the final rinse water is sufficiently hot enough followed by a good dry spotting and water isn't an issue for me. No rinse aid is less that can go wrong. If a dry cycle requires rinse aid to achieve 100% dry dishes its not a real dry cycle in my book.

 

[appnut]

Chet can you find manual for my GSD1200? I tried plugging in the model number but couldn't come up with the model. IF I remember correctly my Normal & Potscrubber cycle was 11.9 gallons and light was 8.9 gallons. Energy Saver and China & Crystal was slightly less. Looks like GE has purged its legacy dishwasher models. Maybe Sears Parts might still have something. I wish I'd saved the user manual. [this post was last edited: 10/14/2023-12:10]

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Overhyped

The restrictions are annoying, but consider that they are for the Normal or EnergyStar Tested cycle with no/low soil. My new KA KDTM604 has the MicroClean design and uses 1 gallon per fill, but using Normal cycle with no options, and no/low soil sensed, that cycle will use 2.4 gallons. Which is well below the restrictions. However, ProWash uses 3.8 gallons with 4 full fills. Filter machines can use even less water per fill. The restriction isn't going after every cycle or soil level. Hence why manufacturers are pushing for people to use other cycle now like Sensor, Auto, ProWash, Boost, etc.  

 

[Chetlaham]

Do you have the exact model number? I have the manual to the GSD-1200S. 13.5 gallons on the Potscrubber cycle. Europe take note. There are several GSD-1200 models that have come out over the years each with their own cycle sequence and water usage.

A few years ago stupid GE manuals.com took down any manual that was more than 20 years relevant. GE must be patting themselves on the back pretty hard from saving us consumers from finding old manuals online.

 

[lavamat_jon]

Europe take note

We don’t need to - we’ve been washing dishes to a high standard economically for many years now.

The Miele dishwashers I’ve had before, and now our Siemens (Bosch) have all washed and dried to an exceptionally high standard using as little water and energy as possible. Using an average of 10-12 l per cycle, or 13.5 litres if intensive is required. My old G6310SC Miele and my parents G4000 series only uses 6.5l water for a lighter soiled load, and still leaves things sparkling. Yes it may take over 2 hours. So what? The dishwasher goes on, and gets forgotten about until the next morning or later that day. Need dishes in a hurry? The quick cycles will still use a sensible amount of energy and water and perform a full 65°C wash in an hour. Even the budget machines here will clean to a high standard whilst using similar amounts of water and energy, and not wasting a drop more than necessary.

It’s easy to wear rose tinted spectacles, look back on the old appliances and automatically assume more = better, but it really isn’t the case especially in a progressive society that cannot afford to be wasteful. Really, I don’t understand the problem where the average dishwashers of people who simply just want clean dishes and don’t care how, give them just that using as little energy and water as possible. It’s not like they aren’t performing, and that everybody has filthy dishes coming out of their machines.

38 litres/10 gallons may not be a waste to us individually, a small number of enthusiasts enjoying vintage appliances, and one could argue that it’s a small price to pay for the returns of enjoyment our vintage appliances give us. But if everybody had such wasteful appliances then the bigger picture that would pose would be nothing but shameful.

 

[Chetlaham]

Aren't your machines more complex though in every way to make up for the low water use? Vintage machines had simplicity, longevity, reliability and easy of service. There was nothing extra inside them that could fail. I've seen EU machines online that fill a reservoir mounted to the side of the machine to heat rinse water by drawing the heat out of the wash water before its drained out- ingenious but complex. EU machines have built in water softeners. Diverter valves. VFD motors. The tech sheets I've even to old EM models are of jaw dropping complexity.

Time may not be a factor when people are forced to plan their routine around and come to terms with a two hour cycle knowing nothing better- that is until you experience a cycle under an hour. You can get that breakfast bowl clean when needed for dinner, that frying pan used during lunch and be able to put the dishes away during the day.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Chetlaham Take Note LOL

I have a Miele G550 from 1975 that uses 58 litres / 15.3 US gallons on the normal and intensive cycles -- that's more than any of the cycles on my vintage American dishwashers, which are: KDS-18, WP PowerClean, JennAir reverse rack and GE2800 Potscrubber.

 

I have copies of "Which?" magazines (UK version of CR) from dishwasher tests in the late 70s and many European machines were using 70 to 80 litres / 18.5 to 21 US gallons per cycle.  Interestingly, a model that used half as much water actually cleaned better than the one using 21 US gallons.  

 

Starting in the early 1980s, European manufacturers started designing dishwashers that did not need as much water.  What's interesting is that "Which?" usually found that the German dishwashers cleaned better and used less water.  Whereas in the US I think a lot of manufacturers simply retained their designs and reprogrammed them to use less water or do fewer fills (this can be a problem and lead to inferior results).

 

I will not tolerate a dishwasher that does not produce excellent results and it would quickly get kicked to the kerb.  I love my vintage machines but a well-designed modern machine can clean just as well.

 

Mark

 

P.S. here is my Miele installed in my apartment when I lived in Spain:

 

[Marky_Mark]

Chet, I think you're right about the complexity.  Various technologies have been employed on certain European dishwashers to allow them to use less water and less energy.  This also applies to certain American machines, to a lesser extent.  I do appreciate the simplicity and brute force of my vintage machines.

 

[Chetlaham]

Mark, ok now you and Europe are talking something real!

70-80 litters has me attention. Can you give me more details on this machine? How long is the normal wash? Do you have its cycle/wire sheet? How many HP/kw is the main motor? Does the machine have a fine filter and if so is it self cleaning? Does it do thermal holds? Pics of the inside? So much to learn. 

 

Miele has something going with your machine. Only thing I dislike is what appears to be a rapid advance timer and rotatory contact selector. Which usually means electrical complexity. The rest is promising however.

 

 

You're correct about US designs originally staying the same and using less water. Nearly everyone did that- GE made few changes to the pump but steadily used a lower the water charge every few years. Whirlpool did away with one final rinse on the dura-wash. On the Power-clean and similar makes the light wash cycle was re-named the normal cycle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

Vintage Simplicity

Mark this is EXACTLY why I love vintage machines. There is nothing to go wrong. Machines are a breeze to fix and trouble shoot. Everything is so straight forward and just makes so much more sense! You can repeat any part of a cycle as many times as you wish, no error codes, no weird failure mods, no surprises. No need to guess. Built in safety factors take care of all loads, conditions and unforeseen scenarios during engineering. A simple no nonsense scheme that works for anything and everything. 

 

 

Mark, take a look at this 11.4 gallon per cycle US dishwasher. Can you show me anything more simple, more beautiful or more resource maximizing than this? Absolutely breath taking. I'll wait for Europe to beat this! 

 

[appnut]

Chet, I did find a GSD1200L and a GSD1200M use & care manuals online kind of chopped up. :Both of these ended up chopping off the 3rd post-wash rinse where should have been put that extra rinse before the main wash. Both had the 11.9 gallon usage for PS/Normal and 8.9 for Light. On mine Normal & PS were Prewash, 2 rinses, Main Wash, and 3 post wash rinses--one of those post wash rinses had the "china crystal" fill level. Light Wash was Prewash, rinse, Main Wash, and 2 post wash rinses. Engergy Saver was like light wash, but the rinse after prewash wash a "china crystal" fill level and shortened main wash. China Crystal fill levels were shorter to achieve the "aerated" gentler wash action.

There was one of the GSD1200 versions where the main cycle buttons were Potscrubber, Heavy (Instead of Normal), Normal (Instead of Light), and Light (instead of Energy Saver).

The example sequence chart with the extended main wash & final rinse for Potscrubber may have been the very first GSD1200 when Debbie Reynolds did the print ads for that first model and it was designated as part of the PotScrubber III series.

I think in all the years I had the dishwasher, I used Normal once. The main wash length for both Normal and Light were the same due to water heating delay and I got the same cleaning results using Light with 2 less water changes. Only cycles I used regularly were PotScrubber, Light, and Energy Saver.

To me, those cycles should have been labeled Heavy, Normal, and Express Wash. [this post was last edited: 10/14/2023-15:52]

 

[lavamat_jon]

They aren’t as complex as I think you think they are. Water softeners are necessary here as our water is much harder, and they really very rarely fail. Plus they eliminate any variability in cleaning that may be due to differing water hardnesses, so why would precision in guaranteeing results be an issue? Some machines (few rather than many) have a reservoir on the side to passively preheat water for then next bath, but again it doesn’t add any complexity - it is only a plastic chamber on route to the main tank. Our current Siemens dishwasher does this and it’s really no problem at all.

Alternating spray arms are a great idea, and personally I don’t see why you wouldn’t want that if it delivers great results whilst conserving resources. Our dishwasher also has pretty internal lighting, wifi and app connectivity - whilst it’s useful to check the dishwasher on your phone I will admit those features certainly are not a necessity and I could live without it if needed .

We certainly aren’t “forced” to endure 2+ hour cycles - we just live our lives without thinking about the appliances whilst they do the job quietly in the background. It can sometimes take two days to fill the dishwasher and it will then go on once full, and I don’t know about you but I certainly wait more than two hours between meals. Anyway - as I mentioned before, if you do need it quickly if you’re perhaps entertaining then most machines offer a quick cycle of an hour or even less. (As a side note, plenty of people here use quick cycles in their dishwasher or washing machine and then don’t come back to it until hours later, so they could just have used the more efficient longer cycles in the first place).

I appreciate that simplicity may be key, but modern dishwashers aren’t as complex or unreliable as you think. And you certainly don’t need to waste litres (or should I say gallons) of water to do so given the state our environment is in.

 

[Chetlaham]

@dadoes: What was the exact model that you had? Your observations are correct. GE routinely adjusted the water charge per fill and the number of rinses both post and pre main wash.

 

For example, 4 major post main wash rinse variants were as follows:

 

 

~1970-1977 3 post main wash rinses two with a 90 second fill middle rinse 60 second fill. 

 

~1978-1982 3 post main wash rinses each with equal fill times around 75 seconds.

 

~1983-1986 2 post main wash rinses each with either a 64 or 66 second fill.

 

~1987-1990 3 post main wash rinses 64 seconds for fills 5 and 7, fill number 6 45 seconds.  BOL models were the same except fill number 5 was 45 seconds and fills number 6 and 7 were 64 seconds. The 45 second fill was nothing more than a purge, it left the pump pulling air and the time between fill end and the drain solenoid activating was usually less than 60 seconds. 

 

1990s saw a gradual decline in fill times on each successive model ie a mid 90s Potscrubber was 42-53-53 seconds on the post main wash rinses.

 

Hotpoint went to two 66 second post main wash rinse fills in 1978 (11.4 gallons total cycle), and around roughly the mid to late 80s Hotpoint went to two pre main wash fills and 3 post main wash fills- one of the post main wash rinses had a reduced fill time giving 10.7 gallons total per complete cycle instead of the previous 11.4 gallons. Hotpoint reduced total water consumption again briefly before discontinuing porcelain tub production. GE on the other hand kept all 3 pre main wash fills when they added a 3rd post main wash rinse. The second in series pre main wash fill was reduced from 66 seconds down to 56 seconds. As such the total water consumption went from 11.4 to 12.1 gallons.

 

 

Note that this isn't all exhaustive and dates are all median approximates. GE had other variations in between these 4 common fill schemes and were phased in or out over models.    

 

Many of the changes were the result two major things 1) GE over the years redesigning their sump, boot, pump body and wash arm to hold less carry over water in between fills 2) restricting the flow rate out of the wash arm such that the machine could get away with a lower water charge without pulling in air.

 

Others appear to be the result of under estimating the effects of water reduction. For example, there were times when GE would come out with sets of models that used less water than priors, only to go back and increase the water consumption or where a cycle starts one or two years latter. A 3 steps forward one step back kind of deal.    

 

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 10/14/2023-23:29]

 

[Chetlaham]

[No message]

 

[appnut]

Chet, I bought mine May/June of 1987. Two other families bought the ssame dishwasher in a couple of months of my purchase. All 3 of us had the little cycle progress indicator being red. My parents bought a GSD1200 late 1987 or early 1988, the color of their indicator was white. On mine, with Light Soil & Ebnergy Saver, the timer would advance past the first post-wash rinse. My mom only used Energy Saver or China Crystal the whole time they had theirs. On hers, the timer would advance thorugh the 2nd rinse for the 2 post wash rinse sequence, I paid close attention after I noticed that difference for two additonal loads and that's what it did. Freaked me oout.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hey Chet

 

If you'd like to see plenty of photos of my mighty Miele and get the answers to all those questions and more, check out the following thread.  

 

Scroll down to posts 100 and 105.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?82361

 

 

[decodriveboy]

For what it’s worth…

I too am normally exasperated with the race to the bottom RE: water usage for appliances in the US market.

At some point energy “efficiency” renders our machines useless and unable to fulfill their primary role without gymnastics to compensate from the end user.

Our Miele G7366 dishwasher which we got in 2021 uses 2.6 gallons per Quick Wash cycle which we use almost exclusively - and it delivers excellent results with typically-soiled cookware and plates.

I do not agree with further water restrictions in general for appliances as I feel they’ve gone about as far as they can go, but 3.1 gallons seems to still be within range of an acceptable amount.

 

[Chetlaham]

Mark, thank you. I like what I see. That is a an impressive design and cycles are respectable.

 

 

Only thing I disagree with is the rapid advance timer system- this is some of the complexity I think of when I picture EU machines. The knob can be attached directly to the drum and the cycle selector knob and second timer motor eliminated. I also imagine there are multiple normal open thermostats and sub-interval circuits. Do you have the tech sheet or service manual to Miele? I'm waging a bet the internal electrical complexity is even greater than that of the GSD-1200 in Reply 53. A machine like this is a perfect candidate for simplification.

 

 

[Chetlaham]

@appnut: 1987 would definitely put your machine in the major cycle redesign years at 7 fills total for normal and Potscrubber. One pre main wash fill would definitely have been reduced and most likely one post main wash rinse fill was also significantly reduced.

 

GE did this because I assume they discovered the two fill 3.8 gallon total rinse cycle implemented in the new Permatuff design was not enough to rinse away residue like GE had assumed. So to fix this GE took two seconds away from every fill and 10 seconds from one prewash fill to create a 1 gallon purge in the post main wash rinse cycle without significantly increasing total water usage. This appeared so rushed and sudden that GE actually forgot to change their new detergent and rinse aid release times on tech sheet following immediately after. 

 

 

For example, GSD600D showing the correct detergent and rinse aid trip times (at 18 and 38 seconds) for a 6 fill cycle 11.4 gallon machine:

 

 

 

 

 

 

GSD600G 1987 12.1 gallon per cycle redesign showing the detergent and rinse aid times unchanged (18 and 38 seconds) even though these release times did not hold true in the real world.

 

 

 

In fact every tech sheet I saw printed right after the 86/87 cycle redesign regardless of model be it GSD500G, GSD600G, GSD940G, GSD1200 ect did not have their detergent and rinse times updated to reflect the new trip times. The trip cams however all had "7 fill cycle" embossed on them. 

 

I'd give almost anything to know what took place in GE and what was discussed internally in the most granular detail- and why Hotpoint took a different approach from GE to remedy the inadequate final rinse issue. Video tapes and audio recordings of each phone call, room, booth, lab and work station would be epic- to be a fly on the wall so to speak lol. It would be a blockbuster series for me.

 

I mean, what technical detail was behind engaging the heater just 10 seconds away from the drain valve opening on a purge only to continue running said heater during the drain period and 30 seconds after? Why not have the purge right after the main wash? Or why do it X way? Just so fascinating to think about what was going through people's heads when they were creating all this stuff and the decisions they made.