new rules will allow only 3.1 gallons to be used to wash each load of dishes.

[Marky_Mark]

Chet, yes it's true that my Miele has a rapid-advance timer......but it's 48 years old and still working, so we can't complain!

 

I don't have the tech sheet to hand, as the machine is currently in storage in the UK.  My KDS-18 also has a complex timer and my GE2800 and my JennAir are both electronic, so American machines can have complex timers/electronics too.  My WP PowerClean has a simple electromechanical timer, as did the Bosch dishwasher I grew up with in the UK.

 

[Chetlaham]

They do get complex- to create the illusion of variety, choice and model superiority as to motivate customers into spending more per machine. All marketing.

 

A KDS-18 can achieve any cycle via a 8 single pole switches as can any vintage GE or Jenn-Air. There is no need for a rapid advance timer. With some very minor engineering that Miele could do the same.

 

[combo52]

KDS 18 dishwasher

There is no need for a rapid advanced timer?

Unless you wanna wait an hour for rinse and hold cycle or to get to the plate warm cycle and have your plates take over an hour to warm, lol

A rapid advance timer motor made a much nicer machine to use, and a munch more functional machine before electronics were able to have cycles immediately available.

John L

 

[Chetlaham]

Yes

Well, if you choose to ignore GE and Whirlpool's success in both rinse and hold and plate warmer without an RA...

 

 

Rinse and hold: Advance timer to the rinse portion of the cycle and push "heated dry off"

 

Plate warmer: Advance timer to designated plate warmer spot in the heated dry cycle- a hard resting detent can be placed in the timer making it harder for the consumer to skip over.

 

Don't want to waste energy running the heater during rinse and hold? Add a separate rinse and hold cycle to the timer as Whirlpool did. 

 

Fill 2 minutes

 

Wash 2 minutes

 

Drain 2 minutes

 

Off

 

This way Whirlpool could avoid the forced thermal hold in the regular rinse cycle.  

 

No wait, no limited versatility in either.

 

(Forgive me for all the pic I uploaded in this thread- only too visually describe what I'm thinking about)

 

 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

Kenmore dishwasher

I had a Kenmore dishwasher by GE that had 8 fills on pots and pans and 7 on normal. I remember when it tried to recirculate the water draining. The pump would vibrate the whole cabinetry at times.

 

[DADoES]

 
Spent a week at a friend's house in Frisco, visiting with the family (some in from TN and KS) for his son's wedding.  Dishwasher is a recent Frigidaire.  I took a photo of the model/serial but it apparently somehow got deleted from my phone.  It's model FFCD2413 per the appearance at Frigidaire, Home Depot, & Lowe's.  Heavy, Normal, 1 Hr cycles.  High Temp option.  Heat Dry and Delay 4 Hr.  I can't say what's the fill volume but more water changes than I expected on both the Heavy and Normal cycles.  Sounds like it alternates the spray arms some of the time.  Two runs I loaded and unloaded, everything was clean.

 

[johnbee]

Talking about results

I live in the US. European born in Greece raised In Austria.
My NYC apartment had a whirlpool kitchen aid dishwasher from the 80s. My exs aunt visited us and she was like “oh those dishwashers had nothing to do with the current energy efficient. The old ones clean better”.

We used it for a while but I really HATED the way the racks were arranged , the noise it was making and of course the missing part of water softener. YES gents water softener makes a difference. Those disturbing white spots are hard water.
So, I saw on Craigslist someone was giving away for free a Miele dishwasher. It was the G2xxx series. Old but still a Miele ! I got it and found out that one of the hoses was the one causing the leaks. I replaced it and all good.
This all happened in 2019. The dishwasher was like a decade old at LEAST.
I use it every day. Actually I abuse it cause I don’t rinse anything.
This beast is taking way less water and energy cause it’s alternating between the racks with a digital motor system etc. yes it’s more complex but cmon, HOW MANY YEARS you expect to keep a dishwasher ! 15?20?30?
Sorry I’m not planning to die with my dishwasher. Technology advances and if it dies after 20 years I’ll recycle it and replace it.
Same with my laundry. I don’t have those energy and water wasters top loaders and electric dryers that take 6000w to dry a load that the useless washer spun at only 650rpm.
I prefer a high efficiency Miele that can fit same amount of clothes , use almost no water , clean better and spin everything at 1600, which will make my 900w heatpump dryer run for 50 minutes and dry everything without melting the ice on the poles.
I agree with the friend who said that “hey for you it’s only 10 extra gallons of water but on bigger scale this is is wasteful”
Each time I see a top loader training 45 gallons of water just to wash 5 pairs of jeans my heart is breaking, thinking about how precious drinkable water is.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

abusing dishwasher and rinse aid

You are not abusing your dishwasher. Don't prerinse anything. Also, use a rinse aid. I use Cascade power dry. If you prerinse, you'll ruin your racks. Just scrape and load.

 

[ryner1988]

Reply #65

John, I totally get what you are saying about the water thing. I have an old Whirlpool direct drive TL that I picked up used some time ago because I needed a washer in a hurry. Lately I've been feeling sort of like I'm doing something wrong every time I do laundry because of how much water it uses. But I can't bring myself to toss a machine that still works fine so I just try to only do laundry when I have full loads and also I'm juducious about the water level.

Yesterday I had a smaller than average load for me. It consisted of three sweatshirts, three pairs of sweatpants, and a pair of jeans. I forgot to turn the water level down from the highest level and the clothes were literally swimming in water. It could have ran on the second to highest level easily. Whoops. But that mistake would not have happened if I were using a front loader. So that's what my next machine will be. Wish I could afford a Speed Queen FL but that's not realistic for my financial situation so it'll likely be an LG.

Ryne

 

[Chetlaham]

HOW MANY YEARS...

<blockquote>
...you expect to keep a dishwasher ! 15?20?30?

</blockquote>
 

For the record, at least 30 years. 30-40 years was common for 80s Potscrubbers. Truly the best example of getting you're money's worth. 

 

[henene4]

I think you overestimate the longevity of these old appliances.

Not saying they didn't last longer than today - just that them lasting 40+ years is still the exception and not the rule.

They sold several millions of them per year - you don't see millions of them around anymore.

 

[Chetlaham]

Depends on the make and model. There are plenty of Potscrubbers being removed that work, and plenty more still in service, and most that made it 20-30 years where they've already been replaced. (Potscrubbers also had some of the lowest manufacturing defect rated as well) Still find homes for sale with Powercleans and Kitchen-aids around.

 

[combo52]

Dishwasher longevity

Dishwashers are the most frequently replaced and shortest lived of any major Appliance, except for over the range microwave ovens

GE pot scrubber dishwashers had the worst pump in the industry. GE use the same pump in expensive pot scrubbers that they used in their $159 builder dishwashers and they weren’t very durable trip shaft CO leaks. Main pump seal leaks a very flimsy grinder that was ruined by just one hard object, etc. problems with these pumps,

KitchenAid dishwashers were always very well built and very serviceable, but never is reliable as GE or whirlpool dishwashers overall but they were kind of like an old Mercedes-Benz they were usually worth fixing.

But overall I would have to put the average life of dishwashers in the 10 to 15 year range many lightly used machines went on for 10 to 30 years, but they weren’t run very often .

For life expectancy I’m talking about a machine that is run every day, which is common in American households

John

 

[Chetlaham]

The largest number of pump problems was by far on mid 90s to mid 2000s Potscrubbers. Those were an absolute wreck. On the other hand the overwhelming majority of Potscrubbers built from 1982 to 1990 did not have pump problems. Seized motor bearings, detached motor fan, drain shaft leaking, main seal leaks, bad drain valve flappers, ect were uncommon when factored against the number of Potscrubbers that were in service. I will agree the steal macerator would universally break off after a few years of use- other than that these were very reliable machines that did their job without hiccup. I still wish they were around today made new.  

 

[gelaundry4ever]

pump vibration and buzzing

I remember my GE built Kenmore had a pump just like their potscrubbers that had a lot of vibration at times. What was GE thinking when they used that pump? And you'd occasionally hear a buzzing noise when the water was spraying steadily at full force. It would run at 3000 rpm.

 

[combo52]

Early 80s GE pot scrubbers,

While the best dishwasher GE had ever made up until that time, they still had lots of problems.

Not the least of which, where they were very limited in loading you couldn’t put large stockpots and really large things in them. You couldn’t put tall glasses in the corners of the upper rack, because of the lack of upper wash arm And lower wash arm blocked too much space and had a silly little shelf small plates behind the wash arm very limited.

But the real problem with the pumps was different in the 80s but they still suffered lots of seal failures locked up motor bearings. The grinder was a joke always, and when the grinder failed you ended up with clogged wash arms clogged sizing plate behind the grinder. It really was not a great dishwasher anyway, you cut it.

John

 

[gelaundry4ever]

dishwasher rules

I have a feeling that the rules for dishwashers will become more stringent. Here we are in 2024 and this is still happening folks.