My cousin's are building a new home in the Grand Rapids Mi area. They are in the process of selecting all new appliances and they would like to opt for a gas dryer. However, their builder told them that some townships in the area prohibit gas dryers if there is a laundry sink in the room. Has anyone heard of such a thing? What could the possible reasoning be???
No gas dryer if you have a Laundry Sink??? Code??
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Hydrogen.
Say that they go away for vacation, more than a week or two.....and they run hot water into the sink, and start the dryer. There is a small, small, but real chance that a spark from the dryer could set the hydrogen rich (from disuse in the water tank) hot water afire. At least, that's how I understand it. I MAY BE totally wrong, but that's my understanding.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Say that they go away for vacation, more than a week or two.....and they run hot water into the sink, and start the dryer. There is a small, small, but real chance that a spark from the dryer could set the hydrogen rich (from disuse in the water tank) hot water afire. At least, that's how I understand it. I MAY BE totally wrong, but that's my understanding.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
BS . . .
Firstly, this sounds like pure BS to me, I can see no rational reason the existance of a laundry sink would affect the type of dryer chosen. I have done work in many cities and counties as an architect and have never had one prohibit a gas dryer - who in their right mind would want an electric if they gas, given the extra speed of gas?
Secondly, it makes no sense for the builder to make such an open-ended statement about "some" municipalities - what matters is what is allowed by the local building officials with jurisdiction. If the house is in an incorporated community then their Building and Safety Dept. is responsible for permits and inspections, if not then responsibility will default to the county's Building and Safety Dept. Your cousin should tell the builder that they want a gas dryer and for him to please check with the proper officials and see if there are any problems with installing one. If the builder claims it can't be done then your cousin should make a personal visit to Building and Safety and ask what the problem is.
My guess is that someone decided to save a few bucks by not running a gas line to the laundry and are now trying to not incur extra charges from the plumber for installing one, not to mention extra finish work if the drywall is already in place.
Firstly, this sounds like pure BS to me, I can see no rational reason the existance of a laundry sink would affect the type of dryer chosen. I have done work in many cities and counties as an architect and have never had one prohibit a gas dryer - who in their right mind would want an electric if they gas, given the extra speed of gas?
Secondly, it makes no sense for the builder to make such an open-ended statement about "some" municipalities - what matters is what is allowed by the local building officials with jurisdiction. If the house is in an incorporated community then their Building and Safety Dept. is responsible for permits and inspections, if not then responsibility will default to the county's Building and Safety Dept. Your cousin should tell the builder that they want a gas dryer and for him to please check with the proper officials and see if there are any problems with installing one. If the builder claims it can't be done then your cousin should make a personal visit to Building and Safety and ask what the problem is.
My guess is that someone decided to save a few bucks by not running a gas line to the laundry and are now trying to not incur extra charges from the plumber for installing one, not to mention extra finish work if the drywall is already in place.
At this point they have not broken ground yet, so it's not a matter if forgetting to run a line. My cousin and I are both builders but have never run across something as arcane as this in township reg's.
He's a little frustrated not doing the building in the sense that all the little things he or his wife would like to add the builder doesn't do or in one case comprehend. Issue is the land is in a sub they want to be in for their little kids and the builder is the only one to build on the land so they are stuck.
He's a little frustrated not doing the building in the sense that all the little things he or his wife would like to add the builder doesn't do or in one case comprehend. Issue is the land is in a sub they want to be in for their little kids and the builder is the only one to build on the land so they are stuck.
NO GAS DRYER NEAR A SINK?
Aren't most gas stoves in kitchens near sinks, this is one of the more ridiculous things that I have heard in a long time. Some one has some explaining to do. Electric dryers make plenty of sparks and the heating element in an electric dryer is actually hotter than the flame in the gas dryer.
Aren't most gas stoves in kitchens near sinks, this is one of the more ridiculous things that I have heard in a long time. Some one has some explaining to do. Electric dryers make plenty of sparks and the heating element in an electric dryer is actually hotter than the flame in the gas dryer.
Is the lot in a planned development, or did your cousin buy the lot from the contractor and at the same time agree that the contractor would build the house? If not then I don't see how a local government can restrict building to a certain builder - this sounds like restraint of trade.
jerrod6
Well-known member
Umm.....
My GAS dryer is right across from my porcelain on cast iron double laundry sink and there has never been a problem...the house has been standing for many decades.
My GAS dryer is right across from my porcelain on cast iron double laundry sink and there has never been a problem...the house has been standing for many decades.
arbilab
Well-known member
Sounds ridiculous. Think about the hydrogen hypothesis. Where is the sink? Waist level. Where is the burner in the dryer? Ankle level. Now unless Von Hindenberg was standing on his head when he invented dirigibles, hydrogen goes UP.
If that assertion were true, no kitchen with a sink would be allowed a gas stove, or a stove at all. No bathroom would be allowed a light switch. It's so asinine I can't even figure out why the builder would make it.
If that assertion were true, no kitchen with a sink would be allowed a gas stove, or a stove at all. No bathroom would be allowed a light switch. It's so asinine I can't even figure out why the builder would make it.
I have heard of the problem of hydrogen building up in water heaters if the heater is left on but water not used, but I thought it had to be for two weeks or more.
The problem with well water is the presence of sulfide, which can produce hydrogen sulfide gas in reaction aluminum or magnesium anode rods. Aluminum/zinc anode rods are supposed to address the problem. However as I understand it, any tank type water heater that sits for two weeks or more with the heating system on can produce hydrogen gas regardless of anode rod type.
The problem with well water is the presence of sulfide, which can produce hydrogen sulfide gas in reaction aluminum or magnesium anode rods. Aluminum/zinc anode rods are supposed to address the problem. However as I understand it, any tank type water heater that sits for two weeks or more with the heating system on can produce hydrogen gas regardless of anode rod type.
arbilab
Well-known member
But again, if the hazard were valid, light switches would not be permitted in bathrooms where the source of the spark is above the source of hydrogen.
I don't even buy the notion that there is sufficient hydrogen concentration in stale hot water to ignite.
Tellya what. Google to the best of your ability, the number of natgas explosions vs. the number of hydrogen-in-stale-water explosions. I strongly suspect the latter number will be between one and zero.
I don't even buy the notion that there is sufficient hydrogen concentration in stale hot water to ignite.
Tellya what. Google to the best of your ability, the number of natgas explosions vs. the number of hydrogen-in-stale-water explosions. I strongly suspect the latter number will be between one and zero.
polkanut
Well-known member
Arbilab,
Count Ferdinand Von Zeppelin designed the first practical dirigible beginning in 1874, and built it in 1899. Count Paul Von Hindenburg had nothing to do with zeppelin technology, other than having one infamously named for him after his death in 1934.
Count Ferdinand Von Zeppelin designed the first practical dirigible beginning in 1874, and built it in 1899. Count Paul Von Hindenburg had nothing to do with zeppelin technology, other than having one infamously named for him after his death in 1934.
mysteryclock
Well-known member
Could you get around this restriction with a tankless water heater?
I'm trying to get a bit more info, but being the weekend people are not available....
arbilab
Well-known member
Ah yes, Zeppelin. Stairway to Heaven. What was I thinking?
Well, hydrogen gas is a well-documented source of explosions in car batteries, I know a man who had his battery explode as he was attempting to recharge it. Batteries that have drained off their charge tend to produce hydrogen gas. Improper connection of charging equipment could cause a spark close enough to the battery to ignite the hydrogen gas it is emitting and cause an explosion.
Also, most of the damage to the Japan nuclear plants came from the explosion of built up hydrogen gas - a byproduct of the heating of the water around the core.
So.... since it IS documented that a water heater left turned on but with no water use can built up hydrogen gas... and since it is documented that hydrogen gas in confined spaces can explode... do you really want to risk having a similar explosion in your home when it can be so easily avoided?
The following video is not of a water heater related hydrogen explosion, but rather of a water heater with no pressure release valve and apparently a failed or no thermostatic heating control.... It's just fun to watch...
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Also, most of the damage to the Japan nuclear plants came from the explosion of built up hydrogen gas - a byproduct of the heating of the water around the core.
So.... since it IS documented that a water heater left turned on but with no water use can built up hydrogen gas... and since it is documented that hydrogen gas in confined spaces can explode... do you really want to risk having a similar explosion in your home when it can be so easily avoided?
The following video is not of a water heater related hydrogen explosion, but rather of a water heater with no pressure release valve and apparently a failed or no thermostatic heating control.... It's just fun to watch...
<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>
passatdoc
Well-known member
Bizarre. I have friends in town who added a laundry sink adjacent to their gas dryer and gas water heater in their garage, but they added the sink after they moved in (second owners).
I have friends in the next town over whose house was built c. 1995-6. They have an inside laundry room that came with a laundry sink. Furthermore, their town prohibits electric dryers under the guise of energy conservation: new homes may have gas hookups but no 240V outlet in the laundry area. So they have a gas dryer by law, next to a laundry sink. However, their gas water heater is in the garage, not in the laundry room.
Because of the high cost of electricity vs. moderate cost of gas in my area, people tend to choose gas for dryers and water heaters. When people have a cooktop plus built in oven here, the tendency is to have a gas cooktop and electric ovens. When people have a range, all-electric ranges are rare. More common is an all-gas range, or a dual-fuel range with gas cooktop plus electric oven....but many newer homes have only a gas line plus 120V behind the range, not 240V.
I have friends in the next town over whose house was built c. 1995-6. They have an inside laundry room that came with a laundry sink. Furthermore, their town prohibits electric dryers under the guise of energy conservation: new homes may have gas hookups but no 240V outlet in the laundry area. So they have a gas dryer by law, next to a laundry sink. However, their gas water heater is in the garage, not in the laundry room.
Because of the high cost of electricity vs. moderate cost of gas in my area, people tend to choose gas for dryers and water heaters. When people have a cooktop plus built in oven here, the tendency is to have a gas cooktop and electric ovens. When people have a range, all-electric ranges are rare. More common is an all-gas range, or a dual-fuel range with gas cooktop plus electric oven....but many newer homes have only a gas line plus 120V behind the range, not 240V.
I think there is a tendency against gas fired wall ovens. Perhaps for perceived safety reasons similar to those that have phased out gas fired drop-in ranges.
A drop or slide in cooktop is a different story - the heat is directed up, not towards nearby walls. A gas oven would necessarily direct heat and in the case of a flare up, flame, to the sides, where I suppose due to the increased venting required in a gas oven might pose more of a safety concern than an electric oven. A free standing range would have solid sides and more clearance between the oven and the walls or cabinetry. Just saying.
But someone is right... I did a little googling and while I found plenty of references as to the danger of hydrogen gas buildup in unused but turned on tank type water heaters, I couldn't find any examples of subsequent explosions or fires. But it probably has happened, somewhere, sometime. Maybe a person entering a long vacant home has a lit cig in his or her hand when he or she opens up the hot water tap, and BOOM!. Or goes to draw some water in the laundry sink and turns on the gas dryer. Who knows? Hopefully whoever made up this code restriction has more than just theory to justify it.
A drop or slide in cooktop is a different story - the heat is directed up, not towards nearby walls. A gas oven would necessarily direct heat and in the case of a flare up, flame, to the sides, where I suppose due to the increased venting required in a gas oven might pose more of a safety concern than an electric oven. A free standing range would have solid sides and more clearance between the oven and the walls or cabinetry. Just saying.
But someone is right... I did a little googling and while I found plenty of references as to the danger of hydrogen gas buildup in unused but turned on tank type water heaters, I couldn't find any examples of subsequent explosions or fires. But it probably has happened, somewhere, sometime. Maybe a person entering a long vacant home has a lit cig in his or her hand when he or she opens up the hot water tap, and BOOM!. Or goes to draw some water in the laundry sink and turns on the gas dryer. Who knows? Hopefully whoever made up this code restriction has more than just theory to justify it.
arbilab
Well-known member
Frankly I've only ever seen 2 laundry sinks in my whole life. Grandma's house in Pittsburgh, built early 1900s, and a rent house in Milpitas CA built early 1960s.
Know that more than a few homeowners associations if not municipalities (especially in CA with all their energy nonsense) prohibit clotheslines.
Prefer the economy of gas dryers. But found I had to throttle the burner back or they burned the detergent scent agents for a very unpleasant smell.
Know that more than a few homeowners associations if not municipalities (especially in CA with all their energy nonsense) prohibit clotheslines.
Prefer the economy of gas dryers. But found I had to throttle the burner back or they burned the detergent scent agents for a very unpleasant smell.
The OP has yet to find out if there really is a prohibition against a gas dryer in his circumstance; so far it's just a rumor from a contractor.
As far as gas wall ovens go, the reason few are sold is that there is a very small selection to start with, limited pretty much to lower-end 24" widths. Electrics come as 24", 27", 30", and even wider, and with as many features as you wish to pay for. Manufacturers have clearly limited their gas wall oven production to the replacement market for installation where there may not be a 240v outlet behind an old wall oven. This makes sense when you realize that few people care what fuel their oven uses so in a new installation most are happy to go with an electric. However, most prefer a gas cooktop if gas is available so everyone makes these.
As far as gas wall ovens go, the reason few are sold is that there is a very small selection to start with, limited pretty much to lower-end 24" widths. Electrics come as 24", 27", 30", and even wider, and with as many features as you wish to pay for. Manufacturers have clearly limited their gas wall oven production to the replacement market for installation where there may not be a 240v outlet behind an old wall oven. This makes sense when you realize that few people care what fuel their oven uses so in a new installation most are happy to go with an electric. However, most prefer a gas cooktop if gas is available so everyone makes these.
