My cousin's are building a new home in the Grand Rapids Mi area. They are in the process of selecting all new appliances and they would like to opt for a gas dryer. However, their builder told them that some townships in the area prohibit gas dryers if there is a laundry sink in the room. Has anyone heard of such a thing? What could the possible reasoning be???
No gas dryer if you have a Laundry Sink??? Code??
- Thread starter mattl
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maytagbear
Well-known member
Hydrogen.
Say that they go away for vacation, more than a week or two.....and they run hot water into the sink, and start the dryer. There is a small, small, but real chance that a spark from the dryer could set the hydrogen rich (from disuse in the water tank) hot water afire. At least, that's how I understand it. I MAY BE totally wrong, but that's my understanding.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Say that they go away for vacation, more than a week or two.....and they run hot water into the sink, and start the dryer. There is a small, small, but real chance that a spark from the dryer could set the hydrogen rich (from disuse in the water tank) hot water afire. At least, that's how I understand it. I MAY BE totally wrong, but that's my understanding.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
BS . . .
Firstly, this sounds like pure BS to me, I can see no rational reason the existance of a laundry sink would affect the type of dryer chosen. I have done work in many cities and counties as an architect and have never had one prohibit a gas dryer - who in their right mind would want an electric if they gas, given the extra speed of gas?
Secondly, it makes no sense for the builder to make such an open-ended statement about "some" municipalities - what matters is what is allowed by the local building officials with jurisdiction. If the house is in an incorporated community then their Building and Safety Dept. is responsible for permits and inspections, if not then responsibility will default to the county's Building and Safety Dept. Your cousin should tell the builder that they want a gas dryer and for him to please check with the proper officials and see if there are any problems with installing one. If the builder claims it can't be done then your cousin should make a personal visit to Building and Safety and ask what the problem is.
My guess is that someone decided to save a few bucks by not running a gas line to the laundry and are now trying to not incur extra charges from the plumber for installing one, not to mention extra finish work if the drywall is already in place.
Firstly, this sounds like pure BS to me, I can see no rational reason the existance of a laundry sink would affect the type of dryer chosen. I have done work in many cities and counties as an architect and have never had one prohibit a gas dryer - who in their right mind would want an electric if they gas, given the extra speed of gas?
Secondly, it makes no sense for the builder to make such an open-ended statement about "some" municipalities - what matters is what is allowed by the local building officials with jurisdiction. If the house is in an incorporated community then their Building and Safety Dept. is responsible for permits and inspections, if not then responsibility will default to the county's Building and Safety Dept. Your cousin should tell the builder that they want a gas dryer and for him to please check with the proper officials and see if there are any problems with installing one. If the builder claims it can't be done then your cousin should make a personal visit to Building and Safety and ask what the problem is.
My guess is that someone decided to save a few bucks by not running a gas line to the laundry and are now trying to not incur extra charges from the plumber for installing one, not to mention extra finish work if the drywall is already in place.
At this point they have not broken ground yet, so it's not a matter if forgetting to run a line. My cousin and I are both builders but have never run across something as arcane as this in township reg's.
He's a little frustrated not doing the building in the sense that all the little things he or his wife would like to add the builder doesn't do or in one case comprehend. Issue is the land is in a sub they want to be in for their little kids and the builder is the only one to build on the land so they are stuck.
He's a little frustrated not doing the building in the sense that all the little things he or his wife would like to add the builder doesn't do or in one case comprehend. Issue is the land is in a sub they want to be in for their little kids and the builder is the only one to build on the land so they are stuck.
NO GAS DRYER NEAR A SINK?
Aren't most gas stoves in kitchens near sinks, this is one of the more ridiculous things that I have heard in a long time. Some one has some explaining to do. Electric dryers make plenty of sparks and the heating element in an electric dryer is actually hotter than the flame in the gas dryer.
Aren't most gas stoves in kitchens near sinks, this is one of the more ridiculous things that I have heard in a long time. Some one has some explaining to do. Electric dryers make plenty of sparks and the heating element in an electric dryer is actually hotter than the flame in the gas dryer.
Is the lot in a planned development, or did your cousin buy the lot from the contractor and at the same time agree that the contractor would build the house? If not then I don't see how a local government can restrict building to a certain builder - this sounds like restraint of trade.
jerrod6
Well-known member
Umm.....
My GAS dryer is right across from my porcelain on cast iron double laundry sink and there has never been a problem...the house has been standing for many decades.
My GAS dryer is right across from my porcelain on cast iron double laundry sink and there has never been a problem...the house has been standing for many decades.
arbilab
Well-known member
Sounds ridiculous. Think about the hydrogen hypothesis. Where is the sink? Waist level. Where is the burner in the dryer? Ankle level. Now unless Von Hindenberg was standing on his head when he invented dirigibles, hydrogen goes UP.
If that assertion were true, no kitchen with a sink would be allowed a gas stove, or a stove at all. No bathroom would be allowed a light switch. It's so asinine I can't even figure out why the builder would make it.
If that assertion were true, no kitchen with a sink would be allowed a gas stove, or a stove at all. No bathroom would be allowed a light switch. It's so asinine I can't even figure out why the builder would make it.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I have heard of the problem of hydrogen building up in water heaters if the heater is left on but water not used, but I thought it had to be for two weeks or more.
The problem with well water is the presence of sulfide, which can produce hydrogen sulfide gas in reaction aluminum or magnesium anode rods. Aluminum/zinc anode rods are supposed to address the problem. However as I understand it, any tank type water heater that sits for two weeks or more with the heating system on can produce hydrogen gas regardless of anode rod type.
The problem with well water is the presence of sulfide, which can produce hydrogen sulfide gas in reaction aluminum or magnesium anode rods. Aluminum/zinc anode rods are supposed to address the problem. However as I understand it, any tank type water heater that sits for two weeks or more with the heating system on can produce hydrogen gas regardless of anode rod type.
arbilab
Well-known member
But again, if the hazard were valid, light switches would not be permitted in bathrooms where the source of the spark is above the source of hydrogen.
I don't even buy the notion that there is sufficient hydrogen concentration in stale hot water to ignite.
Tellya what. Google to the best of your ability, the number of natgas explosions vs. the number of hydrogen-in-stale-water explosions. I strongly suspect the latter number will be between one and zero.
I don't even buy the notion that there is sufficient hydrogen concentration in stale hot water to ignite.
Tellya what. Google to the best of your ability, the number of natgas explosions vs. the number of hydrogen-in-stale-water explosions. I strongly suspect the latter number will be between one and zero.
polkanut
Well-known member
Arbilab,
Count Ferdinand Von Zeppelin designed the first practical dirigible beginning in 1874, and built it in 1899. Count Paul Von Hindenburg had nothing to do with zeppelin technology, other than having one infamously named for him after his death in 1934.
Count Ferdinand Von Zeppelin designed the first practical dirigible beginning in 1874, and built it in 1899. Count Paul Von Hindenburg had nothing to do with zeppelin technology, other than having one infamously named for him after his death in 1934.
mysteryclock
Well-known member
Could you get around this restriction with a tankless water heater?
I'm trying to get a bit more info, but being the weekend people are not available....
arbilab
Well-known member
Ah yes, Zeppelin. Stairway to Heaven. What was I thinking?
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Well, hydrogen gas is a well-documented source of explosions in car batteries, I know a man who had his battery explode as he was attempting to recharge it. Batteries that have drained off their charge tend to produce hydrogen gas. Improper connection of charging equipment could cause a spark close enough to the battery to ignite the hydrogen gas it is emitting and cause an explosion.
Also, most of the damage to the Japan nuclear plants came from the explosion of built up hydrogen gas - a byproduct of the heating of the water around the core.
So.... since it IS documented that a water heater left turned on but with no water use can built up hydrogen gas... and since it is documented that hydrogen gas in confined spaces can explode... do you really want to risk having a similar explosion in your home when it can be so easily avoided?
The following video is not of a water heater related hydrogen explosion, but rather of a water heater with no pressure release valve and apparently a failed or no thermostatic heating control.... It's just fun to watch...
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Also, most of the damage to the Japan nuclear plants came from the explosion of built up hydrogen gas - a byproduct of the heating of the water around the core.
So.... since it IS documented that a water heater left turned on but with no water use can built up hydrogen gas... and since it is documented that hydrogen gas in confined spaces can explode... do you really want to risk having a similar explosion in your home when it can be so easily avoided?
The following video is not of a water heater related hydrogen explosion, but rather of a water heater with no pressure release valve and apparently a failed or no thermostatic heating control.... It's just fun to watch...
<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>
passatdoc
Well-known member
Bizarre. I have friends in town who added a laundry sink adjacent to their gas dryer and gas water heater in their garage, but they added the sink after they moved in (second owners).
I have friends in the next town over whose house was built c. 1995-6. They have an inside laundry room that came with a laundry sink. Furthermore, their town prohibits electric dryers under the guise of energy conservation: new homes may have gas hookups but no 240V outlet in the laundry area. So they have a gas dryer by law, next to a laundry sink. However, their gas water heater is in the garage, not in the laundry room.
Because of the high cost of electricity vs. moderate cost of gas in my area, people tend to choose gas for dryers and water heaters. When people have a cooktop plus built in oven here, the tendency is to have a gas cooktop and electric ovens. When people have a range, all-electric ranges are rare. More common is an all-gas range, or a dual-fuel range with gas cooktop plus electric oven....but many newer homes have only a gas line plus 120V behind the range, not 240V.
I have friends in the next town over whose house was built c. 1995-6. They have an inside laundry room that came with a laundry sink. Furthermore, their town prohibits electric dryers under the guise of energy conservation: new homes may have gas hookups but no 240V outlet in the laundry area. So they have a gas dryer by law, next to a laundry sink. However, their gas water heater is in the garage, not in the laundry room.
Because of the high cost of electricity vs. moderate cost of gas in my area, people tend to choose gas for dryers and water heaters. When people have a cooktop plus built in oven here, the tendency is to have a gas cooktop and electric ovens. When people have a range, all-electric ranges are rare. More common is an all-gas range, or a dual-fuel range with gas cooktop plus electric oven....but many newer homes have only a gas line plus 120V behind the range, not 240V.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I think there is a tendency against gas fired wall ovens. Perhaps for perceived safety reasons similar to those that have phased out gas fired drop-in ranges.
A drop or slide in cooktop is a different story - the heat is directed up, not towards nearby walls. A gas oven would necessarily direct heat and in the case of a flare up, flame, to the sides, where I suppose due to the increased venting required in a gas oven might pose more of a safety concern than an electric oven. A free standing range would have solid sides and more clearance between the oven and the walls or cabinetry. Just saying.
But someone is right... I did a little googling and while I found plenty of references as to the danger of hydrogen gas buildup in unused but turned on tank type water heaters, I couldn't find any examples of subsequent explosions or fires. But it probably has happened, somewhere, sometime. Maybe a person entering a long vacant home has a lit cig in his or her hand when he or she opens up the hot water tap, and BOOM!. Or goes to draw some water in the laundry sink and turns on the gas dryer. Who knows? Hopefully whoever made up this code restriction has more than just theory to justify it.
A drop or slide in cooktop is a different story - the heat is directed up, not towards nearby walls. A gas oven would necessarily direct heat and in the case of a flare up, flame, to the sides, where I suppose due to the increased venting required in a gas oven might pose more of a safety concern than an electric oven. A free standing range would have solid sides and more clearance between the oven and the walls or cabinetry. Just saying.
But someone is right... I did a little googling and while I found plenty of references as to the danger of hydrogen gas buildup in unused but turned on tank type water heaters, I couldn't find any examples of subsequent explosions or fires. But it probably has happened, somewhere, sometime. Maybe a person entering a long vacant home has a lit cig in his or her hand when he or she opens up the hot water tap, and BOOM!. Or goes to draw some water in the laundry sink and turns on the gas dryer. Who knows? Hopefully whoever made up this code restriction has more than just theory to justify it.
arbilab
Well-known member
Frankly I've only ever seen 2 laundry sinks in my whole life. Grandma's house in Pittsburgh, built early 1900s, and a rent house in Milpitas CA built early 1960s.
Know that more than a few homeowners associations if not municipalities (especially in CA with all their energy nonsense) prohibit clotheslines.
Prefer the economy of gas dryers. But found I had to throttle the burner back or they burned the detergent scent agents for a very unpleasant smell.
Know that more than a few homeowners associations if not municipalities (especially in CA with all their energy nonsense) prohibit clotheslines.
Prefer the economy of gas dryers. But found I had to throttle the burner back or they burned the detergent scent agents for a very unpleasant smell.
The OP has yet to find out if there really is a prohibition against a gas dryer in his circumstance; so far it's just a rumor from a contractor.
As far as gas wall ovens go, the reason few are sold is that there is a very small selection to start with, limited pretty much to lower-end 24" widths. Electrics come as 24", 27", 30", and even wider, and with as many features as you wish to pay for. Manufacturers have clearly limited their gas wall oven production to the replacement market for installation where there may not be a 240v outlet behind an old wall oven. This makes sense when you realize that few people care what fuel their oven uses so in a new installation most are happy to go with an electric. However, most prefer a gas cooktop if gas is available so everyone makes these.
As far as gas wall ovens go, the reason few are sold is that there is a very small selection to start with, limited pretty much to lower-end 24" widths. Electrics come as 24", 27", 30", and even wider, and with as many features as you wish to pay for. Manufacturers have clearly limited their gas wall oven production to the replacement market for installation where there may not be a 240v outlet behind an old wall oven. This makes sense when you realize that few people care what fuel their oven uses so in a new installation most are happy to go with an electric. However, most prefer a gas cooktop if gas is available so everyone makes these.
passatdoc
Well-known member
@hydralique: agree
I remember my parents' brand new 1958 house which had a gas cooktop and a built-in Dutch-door (two split half doors) gas oven with broiler. That was one of the last gas wall ovens in new construction that I ever saw. We moved in 1961 to a 1930s era house and my parents remodeled ASAP. The kitchen had had an old white gas range, so I know there were gas lines in the walls, but mom chose an electric coil cooktop and double built in electric ovens. Not sure if 240V was in the walls, so it may have involved some expensive rewiring. The laundry room shared a common wall with the kitchen and had gas lines since the dryer was gas. My folks left the 1930s laundry sink in place, it most likely served as a drain for the original owners' wringer washer.
There is a tract of homes in town built in the early-mid 1960s and they too have gas wall ovens. The options for replacement are limited and usually lack upscale features like convection, though some are self-clean. I don't think those kitchens had 240V because the cooktops are also gas. The only homes in that area I've visited had original kitchens, so I haven't seen any examples of extensive remodels in that tract. Again, electric appliances probably need a lot of rewiring.
I remember my parents' brand new 1958 house which had a gas cooktop and a built-in Dutch-door (two split half doors) gas oven with broiler. That was one of the last gas wall ovens in new construction that I ever saw. We moved in 1961 to a 1930s era house and my parents remodeled ASAP. The kitchen had had an old white gas range, so I know there were gas lines in the walls, but mom chose an electric coil cooktop and double built in electric ovens. Not sure if 240V was in the walls, so it may have involved some expensive rewiring. The laundry room shared a common wall with the kitchen and had gas lines since the dryer was gas. My folks left the 1930s laundry sink in place, it most likely served as a drain for the original owners' wringer washer.
There is a tract of homes in town built in the early-mid 1960s and they too have gas wall ovens. The options for replacement are limited and usually lack upscale features like convection, though some are self-clean. I don't think those kitchens had 240V because the cooktops are also gas. The only homes in that area I've visited had original kitchens, so I haven't seen any examples of extensive remodels in that tract. Again, electric appliances probably need a lot of rewiring.
Actually washer manuals carry a warning about this issue. They say that if the hot water has not been used for a couple of weeks that hot water should be drawn off from a source higher than the washer so that circuitry in the machine does not ignite the possibly present hydrogen. The gas dryer stuff is BS. The dilution of the gas with the high airflow would almost totally preclude an explosion near the burner if you had hydrogen at that low level and the electrical circuitry in any washer or dryer would be a far more likely source of ignition.
arbilab
Well-known member
Once again back to the core issue of hydrogen in stale hot water, it's not going to go from a sink at waist level to a burner or start switch at ankle level under ANY circumstances.
Of course, that absolute physical reality is not going to prevent some one-horse municipality (or the state of California) from passing a code against it. Last time I lived there they were talking about outlawing bakeries because they released carbon dioxide.
Gas would indisputably rise to the top of a heater tank where the water exits, causing the faucet to fart when turned on. In my whole life I have never seen that happen UNLESS the water supply was interrupted, allowing air into the system. It's not subtle when it happens, so no, it didn't happen and I overlooked it.
Of course, that absolute physical reality is not going to prevent some one-horse municipality (or the state of California) from passing a code against it. Last time I lived there they were talking about outlawing bakeries because they released carbon dioxide.
Gas would indisputably rise to the top of a heater tank where the water exits, causing the faucet to fart when turned on. In my whole life I have never seen that happen UNLESS the water supply was interrupted, allowing air into the system. It's not subtle when it happens, so no, it didn't happen and I overlooked it.
Actually in California it's very difficult to use a conventional resistance electric water heater because they are very inefficient. There's no actual prohibition but the guys who do the state-mandated Title 24 Energy Analysis say the computer program is heavily weighted toward water heater efficiency and getting the final score to pass requires a lot of expensive work elsewhere in the house. This is a problem for people who live in remote areas without gas service as fire departments don't like to see propane tanks in fire zones, and most all remote areas here in SoCal are in fire zones. I suppose the new heat pump water heaters would be less of a problem.
The biggest issue I've ever had with a municipality and a water heater was years ago with a new house on Park Bridge Court in Dallas near Turtle Creek Blvd. and Cedar Springs Rd. The water heater was accessed through a combined master closet/dressing room and bathroom that was over 1000 sq. ft. in size and had doors to both a hallway and the master bedroom. The inspector declared it a part of the master bedroom and required an expensive direct vent heater for fear a malfunction would pump carbon monoxide into the bedroom. Quite unlikely, but at least we didn't need an ugly louvered door on the closet for combustion air.
The biggest issue I've ever had with a municipality and a water heater was years ago with a new house on Park Bridge Court in Dallas near Turtle Creek Blvd. and Cedar Springs Rd. The water heater was accessed through a combined master closet/dressing room and bathroom that was over 1000 sq. ft. in size and had doors to both a hallway and the master bedroom. The inspector declared it a part of the master bedroom and required an expensive direct vent heater for fear a malfunction would pump carbon monoxide into the bedroom. Quite unlikely, but at least we didn't need an ugly louvered door on the closet for combustion air.
arbilab
Well-known member
Oy! Tell me about inefficient resistance heat. I'm stuck in an apartment and that's all it has.
Y'know what? The waste heat from the refrigerator could supply more than half a modest residential hot water cost. But NOOOooo. We pay for that energy twice. Once to take it out of the fridge, again to take it out of the air in summer.
Y'know what? The waste heat from the refrigerator could supply more than half a modest residential hot water cost. But NOOOooo. We pay for that energy twice. Once to take it out of the fridge, again to take it out of the air in summer.
Well, if you put in a heat pump water heater you could solve that problem. On the other hand, the tap cold water is warmer in the summer so less energy is needed to heat it and because the tap cold is warmer you use less hot water for a shower so it is not a total lose/lose situation. If anyone were really worried about heating water, they could buy some 5 gallon covered buckets at HD or BLOWES, fill them and place them in the sun for solar water heating. Then all you would need is a small pitcher to pour the water over you to bathe. As for the efficiency of an electric water heater itself, it is very close to 100% because you lose no heat up the flue; energy that goes into the heating elements is converted to heat which goes into the water. It is more expensive energy for the task than gas. Have you put a good 2 inch thick insulation blanket around the tank to improve the insulation in the builder model tank you have? I could only find the 1 inch thick blanket in stores so I ordered one online for my heater. As I have stated, It operates from 4 to 8 PM. In the summer, the water I draw from the top of the tank is still at 140 in the afternoon just before it turns on again. The water in the bottom of the tank is cooler because of replacement cold water due to my morning shower.[this post was last edited: 8/7/2011-08:49]
arbilab
Well-known member
Not all that worried about the WH. Non heat/cool months the bill is only $50. But middle of winter can go above $300 running resistance central. For only 800 sq ft. Doublepane windows but I think they cheesed on the attic insulation.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
I can understand the risk or hydrogen, but wouldn't the washer free this gas when it was used as well?
The logic though understandable, is missing something.
The logic though understandable, is missing something.
the little Mythbusters water heater film clip reminded what happened in one of our transmitters several years ago--In one of them water is circulated thru the anode section of the tube-the top water jacket.somehow the water outlet hose got clogged-I was at the site when the tube blew-was just like that water heater in the Mythbuster film clip.The transmitter was in standby status.Blowers and pumps on,and tube filaments on.the tube in question has a 12V 2100A filament-now we can imagine the heat this will put out if the water flow is blocked.I was working in another transmitter when the tube blew-a muffled BOOM heard thruout the building-then smashing and tinkling sounds.Went to the transmitter-all of the cabinet doors were blown open-these are norally LOCKED with special keylocks.and some of the doors were bent.there was a hole in the metal cabinet where the tube was-the platform ( quarter in thick copper plated steel)was bent in half!the lower RF driver cavity under the platform was destroyed.The stainless steel anode cover was blown thru the roof of the transmitter and destroyed equipment on the transmitter roof and an airconditioning vent-that was blown in half.The steel building roof was dented as well.The water jacket was found behind the transmitter.Now its a planter at another workers house.and all of the circuit breakers on the transmitter were tripped.Now there are pressure vents in the water jacket of these tubes-so if a cooling pipe is blocked and pressure tries to build up-the vent blows open.Better that than the tube blowing in half causing over $250,000 in damage to the transmitter-was off the air a couple of years for restoration.And glad no one was near it when the tube blew-they could have been killed.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
I my area any such nonsense would be geared towards not creating an illegal /additional residential apartment.
A 30a electrical line for a standard USA electric dryer (as opposed to a larger capacity circuit of 40a or 50a for a stove) and no gas means ==> NO STOVE/RANGE/COOKER.
FEH!!!!! Add an electric cooktop and a counter-type ("workbench" over seas) large plug-in "toaster-oven" LE VOILA, a ccoktop and an oven for an illegal tenant/ apartment.
In my area it's a kitchen only if it has a stove. (otheriwse it's a "laundry room") So use an electric stove and wheel it away when the inpsector comes around!
Washer goes in space for fridge and dryer goes where vent and power/fuel source is (space for stove).
Once a really ballsy plumber told a family they could not have gas heat in a house that used gas for the stove and dryer. The lazy bastard was not interested in running a larger gas line / pipe from meter to gas boiler. Couldn't he have said, this job is not for me, thank you? Family panicked. Their oil burner caught fire becase during its fall cleaning, the repaiman did not screw the fuel atomizing nozzle back on. It fell off during the first use of the season and the burner head was dumping oil into burner chamber at an alrarmigly fast rate! They did not want oil heat anymore!
[this post was last edited: 8/9/2011-08:27]
A 30a electrical line for a standard USA electric dryer (as opposed to a larger capacity circuit of 40a or 50a for a stove) and no gas means ==> NO STOVE/RANGE/COOKER.
FEH!!!!! Add an electric cooktop and a counter-type ("workbench" over seas) large plug-in "toaster-oven" LE VOILA, a ccoktop and an oven for an illegal tenant/ apartment.
In my area it's a kitchen only if it has a stove. (otheriwse it's a "laundry room") So use an electric stove and wheel it away when the inpsector comes around!
Washer goes in space for fridge and dryer goes where vent and power/fuel source is (space for stove).
Once a really ballsy plumber told a family they could not have gas heat in a house that used gas for the stove and dryer. The lazy bastard was not interested in running a larger gas line / pipe from meter to gas boiler. Couldn't he have said, this job is not for me, thank you? Family panicked. Their oil burner caught fire becase during its fall cleaning, the repaiman did not screw the fuel atomizing nozzle back on. It fell off during the first use of the season and the burner head was dumping oil into burner chamber at an alrarmigly fast rate! They did not want oil heat anymore!
[this post was last edited: 8/9/2011-08:27]
I would have SHREDDED that plumbers license!!
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