No wonder the motors burn out
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cfz2882
Well-known member
motor
it has to reverse back and forth for agitation action too-the motor in my GE hydrowave is around 1/4 hp size,but is actually a 3 phase motor driven by an inverter built into the top of the motor-that way it can rev up to ~10,000 rpm for spin.Motor in the hydrowave doesn't get very hot,but the one in the whirlpool might-I havn't tried any of those washers yet.
it has to reverse back and forth for agitation action too-the motor in my GE hydrowave is around 1/4 hp size,but is actually a 3 phase motor driven by an inverter built into the top of the motor-that way it can rev up to ~10,000 rpm for spin.Motor in the hydrowave doesn't get very hot,but the one in the whirlpool might-I havn't tried any of those washers yet.
Not just the motor-how about its control board!The constant reversal-"plugging" while the washer is agitating has got to be sort of hard on both the motor and the board-esp if the reversals occur while both the motor and load is in motion.I will go with a transmission anytime over this plugging to get agitation.Transmissions can last up to decades--How long is the plugged motor and its board going to last???
Properly built I'll take the Inverter and electronic multi-phase variable frequency drive over the mechanical transmission. Electronics, when run well within their design limits will basically never wear out. The only failure point (again assuming proper design) is the motor bearings failing.
The electronic control not only holds the potential of being more reliable but also more efficient and offer far more controllability then any mechanical transmission. How come every CNC machine tool has done away with transmissions, and they run day in and day out with no problems.
Please do note the first two words above though. It isn't assured that in appliances the electronics are properly built, there is too much cost cutting. Note that this will apply to mechanical transmissions too, a modern transmission will suffer just as much or more from the cost cutting.
The electronic control not only holds the potential of being more reliable but also more efficient and offer far more controllability then any mechanical transmission. How come every CNC machine tool has done away with transmissions, and they run day in and day out with no problems.
Please do note the first two words above though. It isn't assured that in appliances the electronics are properly built, there is too much cost cutting. Note that this will apply to mechanical transmissions too, a modern transmission will suffer just as much or more from the cost cutting.
Problem is for "residentual" equipment the electronics are built to lower quality standards than as compared to industrial equipment such as your lathe.How often are you "plugging" the motor on your lathe?esp if its 25Hp.If household equipment was built to the same standards as an industrial grade CNC machine-no one could afford to buy them.In the above example we are sort of comparing apples to oranges.I would gladly take the older washer designs over the new ones anytime.But yes,for industrial equipment such as an engine lathe-the new design would be better.I so remember the lathes in the high school shop-transmissions and belts to get the proper speeds-and fixed speeds at that.And you had to shut the lathe off to change speeds.With the modern VFD you can change the speed as you work.Yes,transmissions can suffer cost reductions as you point out-remember the "plastic" GE washers-their horrible plastic transmissions that would blow out.Yet I have seen and used older metal washer transmissions that have run for several decades without problem.Sometimes when the washers life is over the transmission is used by lapidaries and rockhands to run a drag saw for cutting slabs from very thick gemstone boulders(Jade)The cutter can rig the transmission so it runs the drag saw blade back and forth over the item to be cut.The cutting blade is diamond-or toothed and impregnated with a slurry of silicon carbide abrasive.I have a couple of older Lapidary Journal magazines describing the use of old washer transmissions to run drag and even wire saws.
Wish I had the room to keep both the 2006 Frigidaire top-loader (with agitator + indexing tub) and the 2013 Immersion Care (on/off reversing tub indexing creates the agitation) to see if one outlasts the other. The agitator version was pretty reliable, in part because the "power stroke" of the agitation became shorter the more resistance it met due to load size. I suppose this helped ease the strain on the transmission and motor.
Will be interesting to see if the Immersion Care machines prove to be as reliable as their old-school siblings. Both my Frigidaire top-loaders found new homes, so I guess I'll never know.
Will be interesting to see if the Immersion Care machines prove to be as reliable as their old-school siblings. Both my Frigidaire top-loaders found new homes, so I guess I'll never know.
Rex,
You'd be surprised at how aggressive the handling of that motor is. ALL the speed control is done by the inverter and it will ramp from 500 to 5000 RPM. The machine has constant linear speed so every diameter step comes with a speed change. Facing starts out slow and ramps up as the tool moves in towards the center to maintain a constant cutting speed (try that with gears!). The inverter/motor provides braking and reversing too. We have both front and rear mounted tools so in some cycles the spindle runs at speed clockwise and it then braked and spun the other direction for the rear operations, 3500 RPM CW to CCW in less then 2 seconds again and again. The chuck is 14" diameter and about 140 lbs. When reversing you feel it through the concrete floor
You are correct that comparing expensive industrial electronics to consumer stuff isn't entirely fair. But I refuse to accept that the consumer electronic controls can't be made to last, they are certainly less expensive and can add features one could never dream of in a pure mechanical world. And the point that we have to compare modern electronics to modern mechanical transmissions stands. An old Whirlpool belt drive transmission will run practically forever, but these could never be made again due to cost constraints.
You'd be surprised at how aggressive the handling of that motor is. ALL the speed control is done by the inverter and it will ramp from 500 to 5000 RPM. The machine has constant linear speed so every diameter step comes with a speed change. Facing starts out slow and ramps up as the tool moves in towards the center to maintain a constant cutting speed (try that with gears!). The inverter/motor provides braking and reversing too. We have both front and rear mounted tools so in some cycles the spindle runs at speed clockwise and it then braked and spun the other direction for the rear operations, 3500 RPM CW to CCW in less then 2 seconds again and again. The chuck is 14" diameter and about 140 lbs. When reversing you feel it through the concrete floor
You are correct that comparing expensive industrial electronics to consumer stuff isn't entirely fair. But I refuse to accept that the consumer electronic controls can't be made to last, they are certainly less expensive and can add features one could never dream of in a pure mechanical world. And the point that we have to compare modern electronics to modern mechanical transmissions stands. An old Whirlpool belt drive transmission will run practically forever, but these could never be made again due to cost constraints.
The problem is
as noted, too much stuff today is built to a price point rather than a quality point.
Electronics, properly designed, can serve well for decades.
Problem is two-fold
1.Shareholders at BIG BOX retail outlets demand ROI no matter what.
2.Customers, aka Sheeple, have allowed themselves to be brainwashed into the thinking "cheaper is better".
Result: Once sturdy items now fall apart in record time. Sure a CRT boob tube is old school, but my 14 year old assembled in USA Toshiba is still working. Show me a flat screen more than 5 years old please.
Cheap metal replaces steel, plastic replaces aluminum. Appliances are now down to a whopping 1 year warranty.
The flip flop generation replete with their cargo shorts and tats see this is the new "normal". 1,000 dollar washer bites the dust, they go right back to their local BIG BOX, sign up for 19% interest but no payments for a year CC and roll out with a new, albeit cheaply constructed, "trendy' HE machine. Process then repeats itself.
Flip flop generation breeds and creates another generation of short attention span spawn that buys into "trending" and social media discourse. Again, process repeats.
It is a sorry state of affairs folks and by the time we pass on, we'll take our steel transmissions with us to the great washing God in the sky.
Hopefully he will have detergent with phosporous!
as noted, too much stuff today is built to a price point rather than a quality point.
Electronics, properly designed, can serve well for decades.
Problem is two-fold
1.Shareholders at BIG BOX retail outlets demand ROI no matter what.
2.Customers, aka Sheeple, have allowed themselves to be brainwashed into the thinking "cheaper is better".
Result: Once sturdy items now fall apart in record time. Sure a CRT boob tube is old school, but my 14 year old assembled in USA Toshiba is still working. Show me a flat screen more than 5 years old please.
Cheap metal replaces steel, plastic replaces aluminum. Appliances are now down to a whopping 1 year warranty.
The flip flop generation replete with their cargo shorts and tats see this is the new "normal". 1,000 dollar washer bites the dust, they go right back to their local BIG BOX, sign up for 19% interest but no payments for a year CC and roll out with a new, albeit cheaply constructed, "trendy' HE machine. Process then repeats itself.
Flip flop generation breeds and creates another generation of short attention span spawn that buys into "trending" and social media discourse. Again, process repeats.
It is a sorry state of affairs folks and by the time we pass on, we'll take our steel transmissions with us to the great washing God in the sky.
Hopefully he will have detergent with phosporous!
Show me a flat screen more than 5 years old please.
I could show you 6 in my immediate family that are over 7 years old and have never blinked.... And they are all florescent back-lit models too.
Old CRT TV's were indeed amazing considering their high voltage complexities and heat related problems. Just to be fair remember CRT technology had over 50 years to work out the bugs. The new LED back-lit LCD's hold the potential to be even more reliable, while having much higher resolution and using a ton less energy too. And they are still the new kid on the block.
I could show you 6 in my immediate family that are over 7 years old and have never blinked.... And they are all florescent back-lit models too.
Old CRT TV's were indeed amazing considering their high voltage complexities and heat related problems. Just to be fair remember CRT technology had over 50 years to work out the bugs. The new LED back-lit LCD's hold the potential to be even more reliable, while having much higher resolution and using a ton less energy too. And they are still the new kid on the block.
<blockquote>Show me a flat screen more than 5 years old please.</blockquote> Surely. This unit is now 11 years -- placed in use on 9/28/2002.
*facepalm*
I was looking at the photo above and wondering WHERE that screen could be. Eventually though the cupcakes in the back of the studio must be an installation of screens. Until I realized... d'oh!
I was looking at the photo above and wondering WHERE that screen could be. Eventually though the cupcakes in the back of the studio must be an installation of screens. Until I realized... d'oh!
mrb627
Well-known member
Amana
These are on display at the local Home Depot. There are not many machines in existence that exude lower quality than these machines. Just awful.
Malcolm
These are on display at the local Home Depot. There are not many machines in existence that exude lower quality than these machines. Just awful.
Malcolm
Phil: what brand is your lathe-would like to look it up and see it.In all likelyhood the motor and invertor in your lathe were most likely designed to be used with each other.The motor was designed to be used with the invertor.So in reading your description of the lathe it can go into reverse at higfh speeds quickly.This is something I have never heard of until now.Sounds like a really nice peice of equipment.The lathes and mill at my place here date back in time-they are just like in the high school shop-belts and transmissions,back gears-and manual reverse gear-says right on the machine to let it stop before reversing.These lathes are small-probably only like 2Hp at best.The mill is an old Index vertical mill,1Hp.The lathes are Logan and Clausing.They date back to like 1961 when this gov;t plant was built.So the machine shop here is a time capsle-the machines still do work-they aren't used for production-for maintenance work for making parts.Guess I will need to read up on newer machine shop tools-sounds very interesting.In all-the tools here are never going to be upgraded-budget-esp now when gov't is shut down.I continue to work-Essentual-excepted.The broadcasts still continue.
Rex,
The motors in all CNC machine tools today are designed to be run with a variable frequency drive inverter. Even our oldest 1997 machine has an electronic VFD drive. Manual machines are different, most of them still use gearboxes or variable sheave belt drives for speed adjustment, even today.
Pretty much all motors can be reversed at full speed with no problem. As long as the safe currents in the windings aren't exceeded and nothing snaps off from the mechanical stress all is good. Its just magnetics. I remember in junior high we had a 12" radial arm saw that had a reversing brake on it. You'd push a button after you turned it off and it would stop the blade dead in less then a second, hold the button and the saw ran in reverse. That motor was never designed for that but it didn't hurt it a bit. I used to worry that the rotational inertia would loosen the blade nut but that never happened either.
Our lathe is a Milltronics ML-18. Its not the most sophisticated machine out there but it is made here in MN and the owner here used to work for Milltronics so they have an "in". I may create another thread to post some photos etc since this is pretty far off topic at this point.
The link is for an interesting video on Youtube provided by the manufacturer. I'm a bit appalled that they couldn't find a clean machine to use for the video. Even our 2 year old machine is still clean and shiny. Also note that they are turning on the backside of the part using the turret but they are using the wrong handed tools so they are cutting upwards. This is bad practice as the cross slide saddle isn't designed for upwards loading. If you accidentally crash the machine it could be costly!
http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qTJUlwjoQBU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The motors in all CNC machine tools today are designed to be run with a variable frequency drive inverter. Even our oldest 1997 machine has an electronic VFD drive. Manual machines are different, most of them still use gearboxes or variable sheave belt drives for speed adjustment, even today.
Pretty much all motors can be reversed at full speed with no problem. As long as the safe currents in the windings aren't exceeded and nothing snaps off from the mechanical stress all is good. Its just magnetics. I remember in junior high we had a 12" radial arm saw that had a reversing brake on it. You'd push a button after you turned it off and it would stop the blade dead in less then a second, hold the button and the saw ran in reverse. That motor was never designed for that but it didn't hurt it a bit. I used to worry that the rotational inertia would loosen the blade nut but that never happened either.
Our lathe is a Milltronics ML-18. Its not the most sophisticated machine out there but it is made here in MN and the owner here used to work for Milltronics so they have an "in". I may create another thread to post some photos etc since this is pretty far off topic at this point.
The link is for an interesting video on Youtube provided by the manufacturer. I'm a bit appalled that they couldn't find a clean machine to use for the video. Even our 2 year old machine is still clean and shiny. Also note that they are turning on the backside of the part using the turret but they are using the wrong handed tools so they are cutting upwards. This is bad practice as the cross slide saddle isn't designed for upwards loading. If you accidentally crash the machine it could be costly!
http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qTJUlwjoQBU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
1/4 HP Motor Too Small for A Washer ?
Hi Ben , where do you come up with this stuff? as a servicer I have never seen a problem with these 1/4 HP motors and WP has been using this system in their compact TL machines for over 20 years. I can guarantee you that the 1/2 HP motor in your new SQ TLer will not last 1/2 as long as these new more efficient motors do. Just the running temperature alone is amazing, the motor in your SQ you can hardly touch after running a load and these newer design machines barely get warm.
Ben I love all the old SQ ads that you have posted and I am very happy that you love your new SQ TL washer, I sold two more this morning, but when you make this other crap up it makes people think you are clueless about appliances.
Hi Ben , where do you come up with this stuff? as a servicer I have never seen a problem with these 1/4 HP motors and WP has been using this system in their compact TL machines for over 20 years. I can guarantee you that the 1/2 HP motor in your new SQ TLer will not last 1/2 as long as these new more efficient motors do. Just the running temperature alone is amazing, the motor in your SQ you can hardly touch after running a load and these newer design machines barely get warm.
Ben I love all the old SQ ads that you have posted and I am very happy that you love your new SQ TL washer, I sold two more this morning, but when you make this other crap up it makes people think you are clueless about appliances.
Where you may ask?
Oh, nothing special as far as sources. Just simply used the web to research before I bought the SQ. Forums like garden web, youtube vids (especially the comments)on HE TL vids, epinions.com comments on Amazon.com etc.
So it is not simply my opinion if you'll pardon me but rather an opinion that is shared by a great many others.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to get back to doing laundry and remember to use the anti-Algore switch this time!
Have a nice day!
Oh, nothing special as far as sources. Just simply used the web to research before I bought the SQ. Forums like garden web, youtube vids (especially the comments)on HE TL vids, epinions.com comments on Amazon.com etc.
So it is not simply my opinion if you'll pardon me but rather an opinion that is shared by a great many others.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to get back to doing laundry and remember to use the anti-Algore switch this time!
Have a nice day!
Ben,
I don't think that John's point was that your beloved 1/2 horsepower SQ motors were failure prone. It was that he didn't agree your assumption that the 1/4 hp motors were more likely to fail. How many of either of these motors have YOU SEEN in person fail? 'nuff said.
Looking at web reviews like epinions gives very little statistical evidence because you have zero idea how many motors _didn't_ fail. Typically the only reviews you see are when something fails. You also have no idea of the total numbers of machines out there, they are zillions more of those 1/4 hp motors out there then the SQ 1/2 models due to total sales. You should see many more reports of 1/4 hp motor failures due to the sample size. It has nothing to do with the size of the motor of the engineering behind it's choice.
You know what they say about assuming. The results may be about the same as having to invoke Al Gore's name in most all of your posts...
I don't think that John's point was that your beloved 1/2 horsepower SQ motors were failure prone. It was that he didn't agree your assumption that the 1/4 hp motors were more likely to fail. How many of either of these motors have YOU SEEN in person fail? 'nuff said.
Looking at web reviews like epinions gives very little statistical evidence because you have zero idea how many motors _didn't_ fail. Typically the only reviews you see are when something fails. You also have no idea of the total numbers of machines out there, they are zillions more of those 1/4 hp motors out there then the SQ 1/2 models due to total sales. You should see many more reports of 1/4 hp motor failures due to the sample size. It has nothing to do with the size of the motor of the engineering behind it's choice.
You know what they say about assuming. The results may be about the same as having to invoke Al Gore's name in most all of your posts...
I haven't invoked Algore's name
in............well it's been a while! But you've given me something to think about!
How about this......"in the name of Algore, I chrisen thee eco-friendly" when I use the single rinse option?
In all reality, I sing the SQ song because it is the last of old school machines. Prior to owning one, I only experienced them at laundy centers and I had an aunt in CA that had one.
Fact is, if Maytag or Whirlpool STILL made an old school machine and I bought it instead of the SQ AND it performed well, I would be bragging on those as well.
And if GE still made the same profile as the one that died, I more than likely would have bought it as a replacement.
HP size notwithstanding, I still stand on the premise the new machines, regardless of HP size, are NOT as reliable and don't clean as well as we're supposed to believe. And they take a LOT longer to do a basic household task. That IS a fact.
Nor am I inclined to pay 4 figures to buy one of these overwrought toys only to act as an unpaid development engineer.
in............well it's been a while! But you've given me something to think about!
How about this......"in the name of Algore, I chrisen thee eco-friendly" when I use the single rinse option?
In all reality, I sing the SQ song because it is the last of old school machines. Prior to owning one, I only experienced them at laundy centers and I had an aunt in CA that had one.
Fact is, if Maytag or Whirlpool STILL made an old school machine and I bought it instead of the SQ AND it performed well, I would be bragging on those as well.
And if GE still made the same profile as the one that died, I more than likely would have bought it as a replacement.
HP size notwithstanding, I still stand on the premise the new machines, regardless of HP size, are NOT as reliable and don't clean as well as we're supposed to believe. And they take a LOT longer to do a basic household task. That IS a fact.
Nor am I inclined to pay 4 figures to buy one of these overwrought toys only to act as an unpaid development engineer.
