NON USA Dryers; what is typical, electric, gas, clothes line?

[thomasortega]

Eduardo, what did you mean about "exposed circuit Switch installed out off the wall"?
Wasn't your installation fully built in the wall?

Mine was installed according to the user manual instructions, with a dedicate circuit breaker in the circuit breakers board and that 4 hole "twist to lock" outlet, which is the same size of an standard wall box and fit it the same way, with options of rectangle, square, patch on (for wooden walls), external (with a waterproof cover to protect from rain and even modular systems with interchangeable decorative panels. It's the same standard used in most of the U.S. dryers for many years and as far as I know, nobody in the U.S. need to keep their wires or circuit breakers exposed. Any live wire exposed is dangerous!

This is only a "new" kind of outlet that matches standards much more advanced than the older brazilian standards and people should get used to it the same way we're getting used to the new brazilian standard outlets.

In some older homes as most of them were not built to receive any kind of dryer or heavier equipment or appliance, no matter what kind of electric dryer one buys, it should be rewired anyway if the owner wants to be safe and respect the ABNT codes. Sometimes those houses still using fuses instead of circuit breakers, and some other houses have a tiny circuit breaker board, that should be replaced by a bigger board to recieve all the circuit breakers a standard modern house needs. (in most of the cases with more than 15 independent GFCI circuit breakers like here)

Now the same thing is happening with the new outlet standards. Most people replace only the outlet and it's risky if they still using the old style (up to 10 amp) wires for 20 amp outlets. Worst of all, most people don't hire electricians, they just do by themselve, ignoring even the ground prong.

Here my whole apartment was rewired as the condominium comission decided it was going to be much cheaper if we hire a company to rewire the whole building at once instead of each apartment hire a self employed electrician to do this service. We all decided to install 100% of the outlets 20A as it can receive both 10 and 20A plugs. than we asked them to don't replace some specific outlets were older appliances with the old 3 prong plug were permanently connected. As it was fully rewired, if someday I decide to replace an older a/c for example, i'll have to replace only the outlet because the new wiring is already there.
I also enjoyed this rewiring to pass more wires to install a second dedicated 30 amp/4 prong outlet if someday i decide to get a second dryer, plus upgraded the relay connected to the emergency stop switch to drop the oven, dishwashers and microwave (up to then it would drop only the laundry room outlets)

And I believe any manufacturer is acting absolutelly correct if they refuse to deliver the cable if the wiring isn't according to the standards. It protects both the manufacturer and the user. And could even prevent damages and deaths caused by fires. What if the user replace only the outlet ignoring the safety standards, overload the circuit and cause a fire? Almost nobody is going to say "I ignored the standards and it caused a fire". What most people will say is "i bought a dryer and it caused a fire, now I want the manufacturer to rebuilt my house" Don't forget most of the brazilians don't even open the plastic bag that contains the user guide.

 

[brastemp]

Sorry Thomas, but I just read this on the electrolux website: http://eden.electrolux.com.br/Eden_Brazil_2006/imagens/_instalacao_secadora.htm

 

[thomasortega]

Yes Eduardo, that's exactly what they say and do.

You buy the dryer. the installation of the machine (power cord installation, vent instalation, leveling, stacking on a matching washer or pedestal drawer (if it the user opted to buy the pedestal), door reversion (if the owner needs to revert the door)and the power cord with plug is made by the authorized service, 100% free.

The service technitians are instructed to test the outlet and check if the phases are correct. they should also check if the circuit breaker is 30A and the wires are 6mm.

If the owner or the electrician have any doubt about how to install the wall outlet, they just need to leave the 4 wires ready then the the Electrolux service will also install properly the outlet (This installation is free too). The consumer only has to buy the wall outlet. Electrolux also sells it as accessory. The technician should arrive at consumers house with the power cord in a bag (the consumer doesn't pay for this cord)

If the wires or the outlet or the circuit breaker aren't according to the specifications, they can refuse to install the power cord on the dryer and you have to reschedule another visit after you have a proper (safe) wiring.

Of course they are not responsible for the wiring readequation, that's the same as buying a car and require the car manufacturer to pay for your gasoline refills.

 

[3beltwesty]

Thank to all for the SUPER responses; please add more too!

 

[3beltwesty]

PassatDoc RE:

"As I understand it, our electricity arrives at the electric meter in 240V, but is converted to 120V at the meter. Where a 240V outlet is required, two circuit wires are joined together (in parallel, I would assume) to provide 240V. US 240V are radically different in appearance from continental Europe or UK plugs."

In the USA roughly about 1947 New houses being built required 240 Volt service and meters.

With a USA 240 Volt meter and circuit breaker panel; there are often in a house two hot wires that are 120 volts to Neutral and then there is the Neutral wire and ground wire. At the meter the Neutral and ground wire are connected together. The Neutral white wire is close to ground in voltage; it can be pulled off a volt or two at a actual socket; or a subpanel that has a separate neutral and ground bus bar.

To get "240 volts" one just uses a two pole breaker and thus one uses both hot wires. This is how a bigger AC unit; a 240 volt dryer; a 240 volt kitchen range gets its input; through a double breaker.

Basically about all ww2 and later houses have 240 volts at the meter and fuse or circuit breaker box. The "120 volt" single breakers or single fuses just feed normal plugs. Then single breaker just uses the neutral wire plus either hot Leg A or hot Leg B. Even if a house has NO 240 volt devices; the circuit panel has both lugs. The breakers are placed such both hot legs are used; to "balance the load". If you measure between the hot socket hole(s)in 120 volt outlet(s) in the kitchen and ones bedroom; one might get 240 volts since each socket is on a different leg ie a or b.

Thus there really is no "conversion" to 120 volts at the meter; it is already there as either wire A or wire B to neutral.

A to N is 120 volts AC
B to N is 120 volts AC
A to B is 240 volts AC

In NON USA places like New Zealand, there is no neutral for the nominal 230 volt service. An alarm clock has 240 volts going to it.

 

[MrX]

Ireland

In Ireland, given the climate (it rains a lot!), dryers are very commonly found in most houses these days.

However, we tend to use much higher spin speed washing machines than you do in the US and that is always a consideration as you want to keep drying times to a minimum. So, it's quite normal to have a 1600 RPM spin on your washing machine these days. Many people would consider 1200 RPM the minimum.

Most dryers, maybe 90% are electric. 230V 50Hz is the only power delivered to homes in Europe. Only large commercial dryers might use 3-phase (400V 50Hz).

The majority of domestic dryers, are standard European style machines. They're typically between 2500W and 3000W (so they can be plugged into any normal Irish socket outlet) and are either vented or condensing. Increasingly, people seem to be opting for condensing dryers. There are also some heat-pump dryers available, although they're a bit pricy, but they do save a lot of energy.

Some households do use gas dryers, these run on natural gas or LPG. They're sometimes tend to be designs similar to those found in North America E.g. see this link : http://www.flogas.ie/flogasforliving/gasproducts_tumble.php although they operate at 230V 50Hz.
They're just 230V 50Hz versions of various Speed Queens and whirlpools.

There are also smaller natural gas dryers, particularly by White Knight, which are standard European sizes.

Drying outdoors is practical here, if the weather's good. However, you do need the tumble dryer as a back up.

Some apartment developments here have contracts that ban the use of indoor airers in view of windows or on balconies, so in those cases almost 100% of laundry has to be tumble dryed which is a bit of a waste of energy in my opinion. (Apartment living in Ireland is pretty unpopular, most people live in houses)

 

[MrX]

One more thing - controls

I forgot to mention that the vast majority of modern dryers here, other than really BOL models, are sensor controlled. It's relatively unusual to find modern dryers with timed-only controls.

However, if you go back even maybe 10 years ago, sensor-drying was a bit of a high price TOL feature only.

 

[cfz2882]

my european 24" dryers

i have two european 24"condenser dryers;
-2002 splendide combomatic 6100e-washer/dryer combo made in italy;
basic description:
-around 1100-1200watt heater
-115v
-8 LBs rated dryer mode capacity
-reverse tumbling
-timed only
-"old skool"technology-minimal electronics
-water cooled condensing action
-takes about 1.5-2 hrs to dry a typical load.
-2010 asko T712C-made in sweden;
-2500w/230v
-13LBs capacity
-single direction tumble
-several automatic sensed cycles + a fixed 60min timed cycle
-takes about 45-60 min to dry typical load with around 65*condenser input
air temp
-air cooled condenser
-usually extracts about i qt.of water with typical load.
These 24"european machines are not at all common in the u.s.-the splendide
most often found onboard boats,RVs,luxury campers,
both of these machines were bought shipping damaged from a damaged goods
store and fixed up

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Threebelt,

The non 110v countries get 230v line to neutral, not line to line.

In most areas, you have 3 phase power running past your house, IE L1, L2, L3, N and each house is just connected to a Phase conductor and Neutral.

Line to line here gives you about 380v. You also may only see a transformer every couple of streets rather than every house.

I guess its the advantage of not being the first to develop a distribution system.

Cheers

Nathan

 

[3beltwesty]

Hi Nathan; good point.

What I learned is that non usa stuff on 230 volts ac tends to be about almost *always one side is a neutral*, but *not* *always*.

Thus when I worked for one of the seven dwarf computer companies we designed so the two input wires were 230 volts, but they could be reversed or one not at a neutral too. ie products went all over the place and we got burned by an oddball exception.

A large factory overseas might have the main voltages higher than 230 volts times the square root of 3. ie higher than 400 volts; ie higher than 230*1.73. Thus they would for our computer product install a step down transformer; and often just let the output side float and thus the 230 volts would not have one leg close to earth/zero volts. I have seen where they tied the output centertap to ground and thus the 230 volts was like the USA's two legs of 120 volts to ground.

Probably most all non usa 230 volt stuff has one side a neutral, but a non plugged install were one hard wires a product, or an install in a factory can have the one side not at a neutral voltage. In product design one of these odd acceptions can cause issues.

When in New Zealand 20 years ago for awhile; I saw where the 230 volts was not with one line close to ground, in a super rural area that the farm house had fuses. In the city areas and motels etc all were with one 230 volt side as a neutral close to earth ie zero voltage.

Any odd exceptions in the world are often odd,old, jackleg, in a custom factory.

 

[MrX]

Plugs and polarity in Europe

The de facto standard single phase European plug used in most countries is known as 'Schuko' or CEE 7/X. CEE 7/7 is the grounded version and CEE 7/16 is the non-grounded version for small appliances.

The CEE 7/X family of plugs is *not* polarised i.e. you can insert the plugs either way.

As a result *all* appliances on sale in Europe must be designed to be perfectly safe regardless of whether the phase and neutral are reversed.

The plugs used in the UK and Ireland are polarised and can only be inserted in one way.

Also, when CEE 7/7 plugs are used in French sockets, they are polarised as there's a grounding pin which prevents the plug from being inserted the 'wrong' way.

European wiring:

N = 0V (Blue)
L1 = 230V (Brown)
L2 = 230V (Black)
L3 = 230V (Grey)
Ground =0V (Yellow & Green stripes)

Phase to Phase = 400V

The standard CEE 7 socket outlet rated 16Amps (Grounding connectors are the clips at the top and bottom of the socket recess. The recessed socket is designed to make it impossible to touch the pins when you're inserting the plug.

 

[MrX]

UK & Ireland plug

The plug and socket used in the UK and Ireland is rated 13amps and carries an internal fuse (rated from 3 amps to 13 amps depending on the appliance).

This is required because the UK and Ireland allow "ring circuits" which basically means that sockets are connected on a 32amp power bus which runs around all of the sockets in a given area. This is protected by a 32amp breaker + RCD (GFCI) which is sufficient to protect the house wiring and you from electric shock but, local fusing is required for the appliance.

The appliance and its cable are protected by the local fuse in the plug itself. Every plug in this system has a fuse and it is impossible (due to interlocked shutters) to insert anything other than a BS1363 plug into the socket outlet. (the ground pin, must go in first, followed by equal pressure on the line and neutral 'holes' to open the socket).

 

[MrX]

UK/IRL plug

Here's the pic of the UK / Ireland plug type BS1363.

Rated 13amps max. (Delivers just shy of 3000W at 230V)

 

[MrX]

Plug fuse

Here's where the fuse goes.

 

[ronhic]

Fuses...

All Australian homes are fused at the meter with either 'old style' breakable wired fuses for each particular circuit (lights, hot water, power points etc) or with circuit breakers, as in our case.

 

We have the following...

 

30amp - stove

20amp - power

20amp - power

20amp - power

20amp - power

20amp - power

20amp - airconditioner

20amp - airconditioner (was hot water...we've now got gas so the ignition runs off a normal power point)

10amp - lights

10amp - lights

 

I should add, that this is a very large house given it was built in 1981...330sqm/3600sqft (including garages) and seems to have been 'over fused' for the time....

 

 

[thomasortega]

Somebody please post a picture of an american standard modern dryer plug and outlet.

Please correct me if i'm wrong. gas models usually have the 3 prong plug (2 flat, 1 round) and electric models have the 4 prong "twist to unlock" plug. Am I right?

 

[launderess]

Thing To Remember About Gas

Is that outside of the Untied States it is not always common to find piped natural gas supplies, especially outside of major urban areas. Thus what gas there is, is often tanked propane.

This has much to do with the rather low supplies of natural resources aside from coal, found in most of the EU/UK. IIRC, natural gas to much of the UK is piped from Norway and or other countries up that way where petrol can be found, including their own North Sea operations.

Given the old, in some cases very old housing stock in many EU/UK countries installing gas lines could pose a problem. However many homes that were built and or reconfigured to accept coal gas (used for lighting), find those gas lines are still active though it is natural gas coming out of the pipes.

Remember watching "1900 House" when they were converting the "modern" Victorian town house back to it's original turn of the last century status. All the workmen had to do was remove the caps/seals from the lighting fixtures, and gas (natural) came out.

I lived in an older apartment building in Brooklyn where the gas lines for lighting were still in the walls. One neighbor who had lived for decades in the place told me a story. For years she couldn't figure out why the power company was sending her bills for gas. The only appliance in the apartments that used the stuff was the range, and that was included with the rent. To settle the matter ConEd sent a work crew out to examine the building/apartment. It turned out the gas lines for lighting were still active! Apparently when the buidling was wired for electric no one bothered to seal off the gas for the lines coming from the street. Hard to imagine that for generations residents of that building were *that* close to getting the "Gaslight Treatment*

 

[MrX]

@ronhic

Yeah, ours is similar, but there are also fuses in all plugs here.

Distribution board is like this:

Main Fuse 100A (Covers whole panel)
Main isolating switch (Whole panel)

Sockets Kitchen - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Kitchen - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Utility Room - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Utility Room - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Living Room - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Sockets Dining Room - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Sockets Study - 20A RCD 2 @30mA

Garage - 20A RCD 2 @30mA

Sockets Bedroom 1 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 2- 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 2 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 4 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA

Outside sockets 16A RCBO @30mA

Bathroom lighting & Fans (all bathrooms) 10A RCBO @ 10mA

Lighting living room + dining room 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Kitchen 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting study + halls 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Bedroom 1 + 2 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Bedroom 3+ 4 + hall 10A RCBO @30mA
Outside lights 10 A RCBO @30mA

Central Heating System 6A RCBO @30mA
Water Heater 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Home network gear : 16A RCD 2 @30mA
Fridge/Freezer : 16A RCBO @30mA

RCBO = combined MCB (Circuit Breaker) and RCD (GFCI)
RCD = Residual Current Device (GFCI)
Each RCD is numbered and controls a number of circuits.

 

[ronhic]

...all the bedrooms in this house have 4 x 230v 10amp power points with the main having 6...

 

Lounge room has 6...

Dining room has 4

Family room has 6

Garage has 8

Laundry only 1 (what gives here??? I want 6!)

Bathroom has 2

Ensuite 1

Outside 2x2 in diferent locations

Upstairs hall has 2 x10amp and 1x15amp (for the airconditioner)

Entry 1

 

 

...and 11 in the kitchen

 

There are power points everywhere....trust me, we may have to run power boards for entertainment (TV, amp, DVD...etc), but nothing like we used to....

 

[MrX]

Sockets / Power points:

Kitchen : 19
Utility : 6
Living Room : 8
Hallway 4
Study 8
Dining Room : 6
Master Bedroom : 8
Bedroom 1: 4
Bedroom 2: 4
Bedroom 3: 4
Hallway : 2
Bathrooms : 1 X isolation transformer supplied shaver socket in each (normal sockets are illegal here in bathrooms)
Garage : 2
Outside : 4 (Weather proof)
Attic : 2 (for data equipment)

I am counting each socket, most of them are double plates so they're counted as "2".