sudsmaster
Well-known member
Two back-up gas-fired direct-vent heaters
Um, don't you mean "two back-up gas-fired VENTED heaters"???
Um, don't you mean "two back-up gas-fired VENTED heaters"???
Oil vs. Propane
- Thread starter bajaespuma
- Start date
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Yes Thank you very much. Direct-vent is a form of VENTED gas heater!
launderess
Well-known member
Don't Know About "So Many"
Apartment buildings in NYC have converted to dual burner systems. But then again that would depend upon what amount one assigns to "many".
Indeed New York City, New York State and various environmental groups are considering legal or other actions to get the still large numbers of NYC apartment buildings still burning #4 heating oil (they would burn #6 if they could get it, *LOL*), to step up to #1 and or dual (natural gas and oil) systems.
A recently published survey of soot and other petrol burning by products showed many areas of mainly apartment buildings having very high levels. Not surprising a moi, the Upper East Side and West Side areas of Manhattan were shown with very high levels. In these areas you have many older (pre-war and later) buildings that are still using boilers which once burned coal. While they have converted to oil, most have burners and systems designed for the two most dirty "bunker fuels" numbers six and four heating oil. Buildings choose these oils because they are cheap.
Number six and four heating oils (bunker fuels) at one time were in heavy demand for use in fueling everything from steam powered ships & locomotives to heating homes. Well ships and locomotives have moved on to mainly either electric or diesel power, and natural gas along with cleaner burning number one heating oil are the choice (the later often by local code) for providing heat to homes. This has left the market for number four heating oil pretty much restricted to large and other apartment buildings. Hence the cost is pretty cheap when compared to other options.
Yes, many buildings have converted to #1 and or duel fuel systems, but the costs associated with such work isn't cheap for existing older properties. Co-op boards (and by extension shareholders) are reluctant to spend that sort of money without either clear savings or some other way to lessen the financial impact. Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.
Apartment buildings in NYC have converted to dual burner systems. But then again that would depend upon what amount one assigns to "many".
Indeed New York City, New York State and various environmental groups are considering legal or other actions to get the still large numbers of NYC apartment buildings still burning #4 heating oil (they would burn #6 if they could get it, *LOL*), to step up to #1 and or dual (natural gas and oil) systems.
A recently published survey of soot and other petrol burning by products showed many areas of mainly apartment buildings having very high levels. Not surprising a moi, the Upper East Side and West Side areas of Manhattan were shown with very high levels. In these areas you have many older (pre-war and later) buildings that are still using boilers which once burned coal. While they have converted to oil, most have burners and systems designed for the two most dirty "bunker fuels" numbers six and four heating oil. Buildings choose these oils because they are cheap.
Number six and four heating oils (bunker fuels) at one time were in heavy demand for use in fueling everything from steam powered ships & locomotives to heating homes. Well ships and locomotives have moved on to mainly either electric or diesel power, and natural gas along with cleaner burning number one heating oil are the choice (the later often by local code) for providing heat to homes. This has left the market for number four heating oil pretty much restricted to large and other apartment buildings. Hence the cost is pretty cheap when compared to other options.
Yes, many buildings have converted to #1 and or duel fuel systems, but the costs associated with such work isn't cheap for existing older properties. Co-op boards (and by extension shareholders) are reluctant to spend that sort of money without either clear savings or some other way to lessen the financial impact. Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Most of the apartment buildngs I inspect lately in NYC have dual-fuel systems, and flaunt them to me as a cost-cutting measure. These are mid-size to larger mid-rise (6-story) and high-rise buildings. Some are mixed-use buildings with ground-level retail and commercial uses.
The lower the costs of running a building the highter the Net Operating Income and the higher the appraised value of the property. Believe me owners are sure to point out ot me dual-fuel systems.
BTW below 20*F (-6.6*C)and Brooklyn Union Gas will electronically "notify" boilers in Queens and Brooklyn (via automated controls) to automatically stop using natural gas and revert to oil to ensure adequate supply (read pressure) for smaller users who can't/don't are not required to cut their demand in peak-use periods.
Quote: Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.
Oh yes they do, even if they CAN'T get it back. They have a great incentive to cut heating costs in that the below-market rents kill their expense ratios that are frequently too high. Owners simply pass fuel costs along to their tenants as fuel-surcharges by way of state and city mandated increase in (regulated) rents if the owner can prove financial hardship. Since larger NYC aprartment building's owners must file a NYC RPIE statement each year [an income and expense statement upon which their real-estate taxes are influenced], all the onwers have to do is show a major capital repair or improvement and high fuel bills and *POOF* voila they get their increasein rents. You see, taxes are done on a a semi-cash basis rather than the accrual basis of accounting and I believe what is normally considered a major capital expenditure can be expensed almost immediately-- for tax purposes --rather than using GAAP (Genarally Accepted Accounting Principles) to expense such capital impovements over many years, thus wreaking havoc (purposely) on a bulding's cash-flow statement. Bottom line is, if lanlords WANT to spend, they will recover the money (via legally increased rents) with some creative data presentation to the state and city. All perfectly legal.
Do let me know what you find this year in boiler rooms and how things have changed based on the number of boilers you have inspected in the last 5-or so years. I'd be fascinated to hear your findings and expertise on the subject.
[this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:53]
The lower the costs of running a building the highter the Net Operating Income and the higher the appraised value of the property. Believe me owners are sure to point out ot me dual-fuel systems.
BTW below 20*F (-6.6*C)and Brooklyn Union Gas will electronically "notify" boilers in Queens and Brooklyn (via automated controls) to automatically stop using natural gas and revert to oil to ensure adequate supply (read pressure) for smaller users who can't/don't are not required to cut their demand in peak-use periods.
Quote: Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.
Oh yes they do, even if they CAN'T get it back. They have a great incentive to cut heating costs in that the below-market rents kill their expense ratios that are frequently too high. Owners simply pass fuel costs along to their tenants as fuel-surcharges by way of state and city mandated increase in (regulated) rents if the owner can prove financial hardship. Since larger NYC aprartment building's owners must file a NYC RPIE statement each year [an income and expense statement upon which their real-estate taxes are influenced], all the onwers have to do is show a major capital repair or improvement and high fuel bills and *POOF* voila they get their increasein rents. You see, taxes are done on a a semi-cash basis rather than the accrual basis of accounting and I believe what is normally considered a major capital expenditure can be expensed almost immediately-- for tax purposes --rather than using GAAP (Genarally Accepted Accounting Principles) to expense such capital impovements over many years, thus wreaking havoc (purposely) on a bulding's cash-flow statement. Bottom line is, if lanlords WANT to spend, they will recover the money (via legally increased rents) with some creative data presentation to the state and city. All perfectly legal.
Do let me know what you find this year in boiler rooms and how things have changed based on the number of boilers you have inspected in the last 5-or so years. I'd be fascinated to hear your findings and expertise on the subject.
[this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:53]
toggleswitch
Well-known member
There are also these hotel-style "PTAC" (Packaged-Terminal Air-Conditioning units) that use natural gas for heating and electricty for cooling.
I believe they are also available in a standard 42 inches wide (3.5 feet).
Do you see the yellow flexible gas-connector/pipe? [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:06]
I believe they are also available in a standard 42 inches wide (3.5 feet).
Do you see the yellow flexible gas-connector/pipe? [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:06]
toggleswitch
Well-known member
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Wow, I've never seen or hears of gas fired PTAC system before!
Anyway, my parents are on LP heat and they were going broke filling the 1,000 gallon tank!
After 3 years of talking/thinking of getting a HP put in, they did it last fall and the electric company able to give them a electric duel fuel rate of 4¢ Kw to run the Heat pump.
They run the HP down to 20˚.
Anyway, my parents are on LP heat and they were going broke filling the 1,000 gallon tank!
After 3 years of talking/thinking of getting a HP put in, they did it last fall and the electric company able to give them a electric duel fuel rate of 4¢ Kw to run the Heat pump.
They run the HP down to 20˚.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Yah those PTAC units are rather unique at the moment. I was so sure the building manger was out of his mind when he explained them to me that I took the cover off and looked.
Part of my job as a commercial appriaser is to know who pays for what utilty to help me estimate the costs to run a building.
Heating estimates are in NYC for oil and gas heat and hot water for the taps vary widely but are frequently in the range of about $350 to $400 per room per year for apartments in buildings. (The bathroom is NOT a room). For my oil-heated house (when I had it a few years ago) it worked as a good estimate.
Any cost savings so far for your parents? $0.04 (4 cents) per KWH is a giveaway!
Dos this include energy and distribution costs?
In central Connecticut, an all-electric house still pays around $0.165 (16.5) cents per KWH.
I believe one loses their all-electric discount in the states of NY AND CT if there are fossil fuels onsite. AFAIK, supplemental heat needs to be solid fuels (wood, coal, pellets) to retain ones discount.
Perhaps I missed a rate that allows for fossil fuel backup to supplement a heat-pump.
[this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:31]
http://www.residential.carrier.com/knowledge/guides/hybridheat.shtml
Part of my job as a commercial appriaser is to know who pays for what utilty to help me estimate the costs to run a building.
Heating estimates are in NYC for oil and gas heat and hot water for the taps vary widely but are frequently in the range of about $350 to $400 per room per year for apartments in buildings. (The bathroom is NOT a room). For my oil-heated house (when I had it a few years ago) it worked as a good estimate.
Any cost savings so far for your parents? $0.04 (4 cents) per KWH is a giveaway!
Dos this include energy and distribution costs?
In central Connecticut, an all-electric house still pays around $0.165 (16.5) cents per KWH.
I believe one loses their all-electric discount in the states of NY AND CT if there are fossil fuels onsite. AFAIK, supplemental heat needs to be solid fuels (wood, coal, pellets) to retain ones discount.
Perhaps I missed a rate that allows for fossil fuel backup to supplement a heat-pump.
[this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:31]
http://www.residential.carrier.com/knowledge/guides/hybridheat.shtml
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