Oil vs. Propane

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30 year old forced-air furnace located in the crawl space.

Mister, get thee a carbon-monoxide detector, and right-quick. In many warm-air furnacdes the heat exhanger rots away and the posionous byproducts of combustion CAN get into the home's air via the ducts, instead of being properly whisked-away via the chimney or flue

It happened to a friend from this club in your state of NJ. Only his furnace uses natural gas.
 
Not to change the topic from heating to dryers my family in the midwest is convinced that the cost of electricity to run the dryer has dipped below the cost of operating an LP gas dryer. So i guess we are going to see a "flip" in energy use for some appliacations. We heat air and water, cook and dry clothes with natural gas and it is much cheaper that our much smaller total electric duplex in Louisiana. alr2903
 
Propane is expensive, compared to the cost of electricity here. Our primary heat is from heat pumps and we only use propane fireplaces to warm up the den and master BR. I just got our tank filled today; 70 gallons was $335.
 
My folks...

...had a 'through room' oil heater with the 'front' in the lounge and the back of it in the kitchen...our dining room ajoined both rooms.

This was converted to Natural Gas in winter 1987 - thankfully.

They used to use 3 tanks of heating oil a year with the last tank of diesel heating fuel cost costing more than the whole of the next years gas bill....

I can't remember the last time I saw a heating oil truck doing deliveries...
 
You Don't Need Two Different Heating Systems

To run "dual fuel" heating, but a burner capable of using either gas and oil.

While such furnaces/boilers are not available off the shelf so to speak for domestic use, go over to Heatinghelp.com or contact a good HVAC person to consider your options.

While the concept of "duel fuel" is interesting, there just doesn't seem to be a huge enough domestic market to get anyone interested. Even at the commercial level it takes lots of number crunching to get building owners to pull that switch. Costs involved can be very dear, and therefore could take years before savings (if any) repay the costs.
 
Speaking of cost of drying

I put my Maytag Neptune natural gas dryer on a watt meter.

When it's simply doing an air fluff, no heat cycle, it consumes about 250 watts. That's a fair amount of energy, all things considered.

So I think it may actually be more energy efficient to gas dry clothes at the warmest temperature compatible with the fabrics, so as to minimize the time the dryer is rotating its drum and blowing air, thereby minimizing the amount of electricity so consumed.

Your mileage may vary. The Neptune appears to have one of the more powerful blowers on the market, but I think the lesson is the same: even a gas dryer consumes a fair amount of electricity in normal operation.
 
OIL VS. PROPANE HEATING

While the idea or switching back and forth made some sense in the late 1970s-the 1980s when we were talking about oil vs. natural gas it probably would make little sense today. A state of the art oil or gas furnace today is more efficient than anything that would be convertible plus propane is just too expensive anyway. Best things to do are insulation, weather stripping, storm windows and yes probably replacing the old windows. Other good solutions are smaller heating systems for parts of your home. Such as wood or pellet stoves, small propane room heaters [ vented ] only and of course electric space heaters. Heat pumps are also worth looking into especially if you have central AC. A whole house heat-pump will cut your oil use in less than half even in Connecticut. The oil heat would be used only when the weater is very cold. Be sure any new furnace-boiler is at least 92% effencent. You should also get a seperate heatpump water heater for year around use as this is far cheaper than using oil to heat water. I bough my partner the Rudd HP WH for Xmas we are going to Home Depot to pick it up in the next hour I will let you know how it works out.
 
Quote: Heat pumps are also worth looking into especially if you have central AC. A whole house heat-pump will cut your oil use in less than half even in Connecticut.

Yes but 1/2 the fuel-oil + an electic bill to run the heat-pump may not be less cost than a full fuel-oil bill.

As far as heat-pump hot-water heaters go, in the northeast if the heat is not being extacted from OUTSIDE the home, chances are you will just be paying to heat the basement or garage (or worse the living space itself) or wherever the hot water heater is located by way of a different source. I'd say these are best in the south or Hawaii or Puerto Rico where one wants "free" cooling and dehumdification of some of the living space.

I have also heard that some restaurants and commercial laundries in the south use heat-pump hot water heaters to boost (or create) their hot water supply while spot-cooling places people stand in commercial kithcens /laundries with the "waste" cooling.

My understanding is that electric heat, of any kind, in the northeast is the last possble resort in terms of high operating cost. [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-20:00]
 
Macroeconomics- the big picture

So many mid-sized and larger NYC apartment buildings now can burn both gas or oil to heat the apartments. The overall effect over time of switching from one fuel to the other, as it is economically favorable to do so, is that demand for the higher-priced fuel goes down, therfore driving prices down assuming a relatively constant supply. Conversely, the greater the demand for the less-expensive fuel boosts its price up assuming the supply remains the same. Over time, the price differences tend to even-out, unless supply is manipulated.

Bottom line is the price of gas and oil fuels tends to go up an down relative to each-other but normal marketing and economic forces (the downward slope of demand and the upward slope of supply) keep them competive to each other.

As was previously stated propane is a distlled product and is indeed a byproduct of other processies; it is generally very expensive compared to natural gas and oil, but less so than heating with electricity.

A more efficent and newer oil-fred system is in order for you and that will save you tremendously. Two back-up gas-fired VENTED direct-vent heaters will enable you to cut your oil use should oil prices spike. And it gives you the peace of mind that you don't have to burn oil if you dont want to.

On the plus side if you cook electrically there is no need to have an exhaust fan to get rid of poisonous byproducts of combustion and a whole bunch of heated home air with it.
Ditto an electric dryer's heat and humidity can be retained if properly filtered and care is taken to avoid mold and mildew in the home.
One can also have a dedicated exhaust fan in the bathroom for showers such that the heat and humidity is simply moved to another area in the house. Of course the fan for the toilet is best used often (and definitely NOT recycled) . LOL [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:33]
 
Don't Know About "So Many"

Apartment buildings in NYC have converted to dual burner systems. But then again that would depend upon what amount one assigns to "many".

Indeed New York City, New York State and various environmental groups are considering legal or other actions to get the still large numbers of NYC apartment buildings still burning #4 heating oil (they would burn #6 if they could get it, *LOL*), to step up to #1 and or dual (natural gas and oil) systems.

A recently published survey of soot and other petrol burning by products showed many areas of mainly apartment buildings having very high levels. Not surprising a moi, the Upper East Side and West Side areas of Manhattan were shown with very high levels. In these areas you have many older (pre-war and later) buildings that are still using boilers which once burned coal. While they have converted to oil, most have burners and systems designed for the two most dirty "bunker fuels" numbers six and four heating oil. Buildings choose these oils because they are cheap.

Number six and four heating oils (bunker fuels) at one time were in heavy demand for use in fueling everything from steam powered ships & locomotives to heating homes. Well ships and locomotives have moved on to mainly either electric or diesel power, and natural gas along with cleaner burning number one heating oil are the choice (the later often by local code) for providing heat to homes. This has left the market for number four heating oil pretty much restricted to large and other apartment buildings. Hence the cost is pretty cheap when compared to other options.

Yes, many buildings have converted to #1 and or duel fuel systems, but the costs associated with such work isn't cheap for existing older properties. Co-op boards (and by extension shareholders) are reluctant to spend that sort of money without either clear savings or some other way to lessen the financial impact. Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.
 
Most of the apartment buildngs I inspect lately in NYC have dual-fuel systems, and flaunt them to me as a cost-cutting measure. These are mid-size to larger mid-rise (6-story) and high-rise buildings. Some are mixed-use buildings with ground-level retail and commercial uses.

The lower the costs of running a building the highter the Net Operating Income and the higher the appraised value of the property. Believe me owners are sure to point out ot me dual-fuel systems.

BTW below 20*F (-6.6*C)and Brooklyn Union Gas will electronically "notify" boilers in Queens and Brooklyn (via automated controls) to automatically stop using natural gas and revert to oil to ensure adequate supply (read pressure) for smaller users who can't/don't are not required to cut their demand in peak-use periods.

Quote: Rental apartment properties, especially those where a majority of tenants are rent controlled/stabilized won't spend that kind of money without some sort of way to get their costs back.

Oh yes they do, even if they CAN'T get it back. They have a great incentive to cut heating costs in that the below-market rents kill their expense ratios that are frequently too high. Owners simply pass fuel costs along to their tenants as fuel-surcharges by way of state and city mandated increase in (regulated) rents if the owner can prove financial hardship. Since larger NYC aprartment building's owners must file a NYC RPIE statement each year [an income and expense statement upon which their real-estate taxes are influenced], all the onwers have to do is show a major capital repair or improvement and high fuel bills and *POOF* voila they get their increasein rents. You see, taxes are done on a a semi-cash basis rather than the accrual basis of accounting and I believe what is normally considered a major capital expenditure can be expensed almost immediately-- for tax purposes --rather than using GAAP (Genarally Accepted Accounting Principles) to expense such capital impovements over many years, thus wreaking havoc (purposely) on a bulding's cash-flow statement. Bottom line is, if lanlords WANT to spend, they will recover the money (via legally increased rents) with some creative data presentation to the state and city. All perfectly legal.

Do let me know what you find this year in boiler rooms and how things have changed based on the number of boilers you have inspected in the last 5-or so years. I'd be fascinated to hear your findings and expertise on the subject. :-) [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:53]
 
There are also these hotel-style "PTAC" (Packaged-Terminal Air-Conditioning units) that use natural gas for heating and electricty for cooling.

I believe they are also available in a standard 42 inches wide (3.5 feet).

Do you see the yellow flexible gas-connector/pipe? [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:06]

toggleswitch++1-16-2011-20-26-38.jpg
 
Wow, I've never seen or hears of gas fired PTAC system before!

Anyway, my parents are on LP heat and they were going broke filling the 1,000 gallon tank!

After 3 years of talking/thinking of getting a HP put in, they did it last fall and the electric company able to give them a electric duel fuel rate of 4¢ Kw to run the Heat pump.

They run the HP down to 20˚.

 
Yah those PTAC units are rather unique at the moment. I was so sure the building manger was out of his mind when he explained them to me that I took the cover off and looked.

Part of my job as a commercial appriaser is to know who pays for what utilty to help me estimate the costs to run a building.

Heating estimates are in NYC for oil and gas heat and hot water for the taps vary widely but are frequently in the range of about $350 to $400 per room per year for apartments in buildings. (The bathroom is NOT a room). For my oil-heated house (when I had it a few years ago) it worked as a good estimate.

Any cost savings so far for your parents? $0.04 (4 cents) per KWH is a giveaway!
Dos this include energy and distribution costs?

In central Connecticut, an all-electric house still pays around $0.165 (16.5) cents per KWH.

I believe one loses their all-electric discount in the states of NY AND CT if there are fossil fuels onsite. AFAIK, supplemental heat needs to be solid fuels (wood, coal, pellets) to retain ones discount.

Perhaps I missed a rate that allows for fossil fuel backup to supplement a heat-pump.

[this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:31]

 

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