Oil vs. Propane

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bajaespuma

bajaespuma

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Connecticut
I'm getting sick of paying out of the nose for heating oil and am beginning to research other fuels. Do any of you know whether there would be a significant savings (or opposite, I guess) if I switched from oil to propane. Unfortunately, in my corner of Connecticut, natural gas is not available. What I don't know is whether the newer gas boilers can operate more efficiently than the most efficient oil models. Any advice would be appreciated including sites or publications to turn to for advice.

I'm also considering installing parallel systems, both oil and propane to use selectively when one utility is costlier than the other.
 
There was at one time a residential-use oil-burner-head that used both fuel-oil and gas with the flip of a switch.

I have not seen one for residential use since the 1970's however.

Dual-fuel burners currently exist in commercial and industrial applications. Most often these are by Industrial Combustion, Inc.

Please try researching the brand names "Carlin", "Beckett" and Riello.

Although propane (bottled gas) is also sold by the "gallon" please note that the heat content is not the same 140,000 BTU/gallon as found in #2-grade fuel-oil. One can therefore not compare the cost of a gallon of one with a gallon of the other without a compensating adjustment for the heat content per gallon.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1015a.pdf
 
Personally, I'd opt for adding a VENTED (direct-vent; vents as a dryer does) gas heater in a location [or two] and don't spend major money replacing your current heating equipment. Please consider a totally non-electric heater for use during blackouts for at least one of the two heaters.

In addition to these heaters are the ones I call "California-style" wall-furnace ones the fit between two wall studs (that are a standard 16 inches on center apart).

Unless of course it is very old. I replaced my 1946 oil-fired boiler (steam heat and domestic hot water for the taps) with a new one (also oil-fired) and my usage of fuel-oil WENT DOWN TO HALF.

http://www.rinnai.us/direct-vent-wall-furnaces/
 
To estiamte heat needed:

The rule of thumb for this country (all areas) is (read: overkill for south, adequate for north)

10 watts of electric heating per square foot* (with a standard 8 or 9 foot ceiling OR
1 watt per cubic foot (sloped or odd/cathedral ceilings).

Since there are 3,412 BTU generate per watt Once can figure out the heating need of each room, based on its size.

http://www.google.com/search?client...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&prmd=i
 
Thank you Steve and Dave

Right now I have an antique American Standard Oil-fired boiler with a hot water baseboard system. It works very well, and I would save a lot if I had 5K to invest in new windows, insulation, etc. but the boiler has lived past its lifetime and will need to be replaced any minute now. I like your idea of putting a couple of Riello/California style gas-powered heaters around. I'm planning on putting a switchable on-demand gas water heating system that I can operate in the warm months when I don't want to run the main boiler.

Really trying to figure out a way to beat a system that may be unbeatable, but I don't want to be hostage to one type of fuel in a volatile market. We are so behind the times in technology and that's exactly where the rich oil men want us.
 
Windows.

Replacement windows are nearly always a bad idea. (Sorry, but I'm in both historic preservation and energy efficiency.) With PROPER weather stripping and glazing putty in good shape you can get close to the efficiency of new windows with just single-pane glass. Add storm windows and you can get BETTER energy efficiency than new windows. Good storm windows increase efficiency even more. Finally, your window treatments (and how and when you use them) can actually play a big role in energy performance.

Read what Bob Yapp has to say about windows. I took his window restoration class and I've found through my experience that, crazy as it sounds, the old windows can really get some spectacular thermal performance. Historic windows are also made of components that are all pretty generic and are individually repairable/replicable, quickly and affordably. Repplacment windows are made from propriatary parts and are neither maintainable, nor repairable. The average life of a new window is about 15 years, then you throw it away and get a new one. Don't believe me? Go out to the suburbs to subdivisions built in the mid 1980s to mid 1990s (which originally had double-pane windows) and see how many original windows are left after 20-25 years. In my parents' subdivision (built 1986-1989) about 3/4 of the windows have been replaced.

This flies in the face of what you are told at Lowe's, Home Depot, HGTV, etc, but if you study the actual performance numbers it all makes perfect sense.

Please read the link attached, it explains everything better than I can.

Clear as mud?
Dave

PS: I really need to make a window thread when I get the time to format it all.

http://www.bobyapp.com/blog/2007/12/why-shouldnt-i-replace-my-windows
 
I agree about the windows. It's sort of like an industry racket. It amazes me when I see a homeowner who hasn't adequately insulated the attic, walls, or floors, go and spend thousands on new windows, thinking this will save on energy costs.

The technical reason, as I understand it, is that while single pane glass windows have a very low R-factor, they represent just a small fraction of the total wall area. Additionally, heat rises, so adequate insulation of the attic, along with sealing off all possible air leaks, should be the first priority in weatherizing a home, not necessarily new windows.

The windows on my home are relatively inefficient 40 year old single pane aluminum frame horizontal sliders. Their best feature is that they are relatively air-tight. But I didn't have to do anything to them when I weatherized the home. After sealing off various and sundry non-window air leaks, and putting in adequate insulation in the attic, I found I had cut my winter gas usage by 30%. And the home was far less drafty and far more comfortable. A side benefit is that the home stays much cooler in the summer, as well, because heat radiating from the roof into the attic is halted by the insulation.

Back to the original post. I sounds like upgrading that old oil boiler to a more efficient oil-burning unit might be the most economical choice. If Toggle's example is used as a guide, it might result in a 50% savings in fuel. Remember that if one goes to propane, one is simply exchanging the oil company visits/fees for the propane company's visits fees. But if one wants to start cooking with gas, then the propane could have an added benefit.

Of course one would have to compare the average cost per BTU of oil vs. propane, as well. Good luck!
 
My sister in the Toledo area heats with propane (forced air), and they say it's very expensive to operate. Her husband won't turn it up very high, and I nearly freeze to death when I'm there.

Also, propane is explosive. Oil is not. An oil leak will be messy, but a propane leak may blow up your neighborhood.
 
Windows matter a lot

Windows are often the bulk of the heat loss in a house. Here I took 2 Mech eng courses in senior year in building heat loses and gains.

An old very common low tech single pane with a slight amount of outside air movement means the pane's thermal resistance of its outside air film is about zero,

the glasses thickness has a resistance and this is about zero too.

About the only thermal resistance a single pane of window glass has is its inside about still air film at the glasses surface.

A typical TOTAL resistance is about 0.885 for a vertical single pane of glass where the outside wind is 15mph with my HVAC text by Jennings. Many of us use 1 with still air as rough seat of the pants number.

Here is a slide rule type swag:

Thus this morning here it was 23F this morning at 6 am. There are 3 giant panes in my family room, the whole view window is about 6 feet by 13 feet. The heat transfer is = (temp difference ) * AREA / R the thermal resistance. If I had the heater set to 70 F;; then the heat flow is Q = (70-23) * (6 *13)/1= 3666 BTU per hour.

This means that with a 1000 watt space heater; about all its 3412 BTUH would just go through the family room window.

If one figures the loss to the attic in this family room is about 15 x 23 feet. When the house is heated, the ceiling is probably about 75 F, but the attic this morning was 31 F via a remote probe. With R19 the heat loss is Q= (75-31)* (15x23) /19= 800 BTUH

If I cover the existing R19 with unkrafted R30, the ceilings heat loss would drop to 800 * (19/49) = 310 BTUH

Thus to reduce heat loses; the added R30 does little, since it is palty compared to the giant window.

Thus using curtains and closing them or adding a 2nd pane RADICALLY reduces the heat loss.

In this area the dual pane windows with the inert gas are a crap shoot. They warranty is often voided if a major hurricane blows through. Very often they leak in air and one gets a horrible fogged up window, even after a few years.

the house I live in has theses magneticaly held 1/6": thick acrylic inner "glasses" that are about 1/8" inside the inner windows. These were a Sears add on install in the early 1980's. As far as summer cooling, they dropped the ac requirments from about 5 to 3 tons, thus when installed the 5 ton unit is too big!
 
In an 1100 sqft old house built in the 1950's I rented in college, if it was 0F outside the lone center of the houses vented gas wall heater would be wide open, and the 3 mini bedrooms, mini bat and kitchen/family room would be about 55F tops.

In the winter we covered the 5 small windows with clear plastic from my roommates Ag courses, and the inside air then would be about 75 F. This house had only about R13 in the attic.

Thus I question others comments that windows are not lossy.

What is a racket is not addressing where the major losses are, and bilking home owners with added insulation where the losses are nil. It is like polishing ones riding mower to get better gas mileage!
 
Ken,

I don't know about your area, but here in Central WI, most of the oil and lp suppliers have plans where you can "lock in" your price for the heating season. If the price per gallon drops below what you are locked in at, they will refund the difference to the customer. This doesn't happen very often though.
 
Propane is distilled, so its price follows other distilled products like gasoline. Our propane bills during these coldest months every year run around $600. That's 2-3x as much as natural gas would cost if we were on the utility grid.
 
In Nov/2009 I installed a propane fired boiler with hot water baseboard heating to replace the electric baseboards and woodstove that I had. I also have a whole house standby generator that is propane operated. From Nov/09 to Apr/10 I used approximately 1800 litres of propane at a price of $0.67 per litre for a total of about $1200 for the heating season. My house is about 1000 sq. feet on each of 2 floors. I thought that was pretty reasonable.

Gary
 
It's all about the head.

yes heating with propane is generally cheaper than resistance-coil electric heating in most parts of the country unless you have hydro-electric produced (read: super-cheap) electricity. But oil and gas tend to be cheaper than propane, from what my understanding is. In the old days the cleaner the fuel the more expensive it was, which is why oil was preferred over gas- less cost. That is not always the case anymore.

Ken, I'd opt for a new oil-burning boiler and regular oil-burning head for the time being, assuming you can't find/get the dual-fuel, oil and gas-burning head which can be installed in your old boiler or a new one.

One can always convert an oil-burning boiler to use gas by just changing the head. One can't convert a gas boiler to oil. Totally different construction when it comes to a residential boiler.

Personally, I have no problem with natural gas, but am not thrilled to be in a home that has propane pipes running through it. Natural gas (methane) is lighter than air and will collect at the ceiling as it dissipates. Bottled gas (propane) is heavier than air and will collect on the floor like water.

I kinda like my own suggestion of having a few vented gas unit heaters about. In that way the propane piping, save for a half-a-foot to a foot (say 15 to 30cm),is outdoors. The only piping needed to be indoors is enough to put an emergency shut-off valve and an elbow to get it in the heater.

So maybe get a gas heater for right now. Then go for a new boiler and burner during the off season. (summer). Preferable with that duel-fuel oil-burning head. I paid about $4,500 for a new boiler and oil-burning head about 5 years ago, and as previously mentioned, my heating bills went to half.

Or, shut your trap about converting to gas and go see your oil dealer. He will try to get you to stay with oil and will probably install or contract out and install of a new boiler for you at little above his cost; he wants to continue sell you oil. if you buy a new boiler form your dealer, you should get about 5-years of a "free" service/maintenance contract out of it.

If you will keep oil I'd say splurge for a Riello brand burner-head (burns cleaner) over a "standard" residential Beckett brand burner head. Of course the ideal situation is to find that dual-fuel burner-head!

By the way the difference between the concept and word "dealer" and a "broker" is that dealers maintain an inventory; brokers do not.

If you can deal with the fuss and aggravation and work, pellet stoves and wood stoves are very popular in Connecticut.

BTW, heating via hydronics (hot water), and steam as well, is produced in a "boiler", while heating air to distribute for space heating is called a "furnace". The indoor coil of a heat-pump (electric central air-conditioning that spins backwards in winter to heat the house using concentrated heat from outdoors) is called an air-handler.

:-)
 
Same Dilema here

I heat with oil too, with a 30 year old forced air furnace located in the crawl space. Nat Gas is not available here (oddly enough its available a mile down the road) and some homes here in the neighborhood heat with propane.

We froze to death our first year here and spent a fortune on oil. The oil company tunes up the furnace every year and gives it a clean bill of health. Not much difference in efficiency in a new unit versus the old one to warrant the $4k+ to replace it, unless something really goes wrong with it.

So I spent my money on tightening up the house. Added insulation, sealed cracks, new storm doors and YES, I replaced
most all the windows. They were in terrible shape. Painted shut, hadn't been cleaned in years, cracked panes, rotten sills. I've seen a huge difference in oil usage this year. Down about 100 gallons from same time last year and the house is much more comfortable.

So my point is, unless you have to replace a unit, or want to switch from oil to propane, try weatherproofing first and see if that helps. Seems to have worked for me.
I probably will replace the furnace in the next year or two only because its time is going to be up anyway and its a good investment, but I'll probably stay with oil unless they run the gas lines up here.
 
on another note...

A friend on mine lives in New Hampshire and his house is all electric ( say ouch when the bill comes in) Last year he installed 2 Rinnai propane heaters, similar to the link below,
and its made a world of difference. Now his house is more of an open concept but they keep each floor very toasty and don't cost alot to operate.

http://www.paulsupply.com/product.a...1_A_ProdHelp_E_Rinnai_ES38_Direct_Vent_Heater
 
30 year old forced-air furnace located in the crawl space.

Mister, get thee a carbon-monoxide detector, and right-quick. In many warm-air furnacdes the heat exhanger rots away and the posionous byproducts of combustion CAN get into the home's air via the ducts, instead of being properly whisked-away via the chimney or flue

It happened to a friend from this club in your state of NJ. Only his furnace uses natural gas.
 
Not to change the topic from heating to dryers my family in the midwest is convinced that the cost of electricity to run the dryer has dipped below the cost of operating an LP gas dryer. So i guess we are going to see a "flip" in energy use for some appliacations. We heat air and water, cook and dry clothes with natural gas and it is much cheaper that our much smaller total electric duplex in Louisiana. alr2903
 
Propane is expensive, compared to the cost of electricity here. Our primary heat is from heat pumps and we only use propane fireplaces to warm up the den and master BR. I just got our tank filled today; 70 gallons was $335.
 
My folks...

...had a 'through room' oil heater with the 'front' in the lounge and the back of it in the kitchen...our dining room ajoined both rooms.

This was converted to Natural Gas in winter 1987 - thankfully.

They used to use 3 tanks of heating oil a year with the last tank of diesel heating fuel cost costing more than the whole of the next years gas bill....

I can't remember the last time I saw a heating oil truck doing deliveries...
 
You Don't Need Two Different Heating Systems

To run "dual fuel" heating, but a burner capable of using either gas and oil.

While such furnaces/boilers are not available off the shelf so to speak for domestic use, go over to Heatinghelp.com or contact a good HVAC person to consider your options.

While the concept of "duel fuel" is interesting, there just doesn't seem to be a huge enough domestic market to get anyone interested. Even at the commercial level it takes lots of number crunching to get building owners to pull that switch. Costs involved can be very dear, and therefore could take years before savings (if any) repay the costs.
 
Speaking of cost of drying

I put my Maytag Neptune natural gas dryer on a watt meter.

When it's simply doing an air fluff, no heat cycle, it consumes about 250 watts. That's a fair amount of energy, all things considered.

So I think it may actually be more energy efficient to gas dry clothes at the warmest temperature compatible with the fabrics, so as to minimize the time the dryer is rotating its drum and blowing air, thereby minimizing the amount of electricity so consumed.

Your mileage may vary. The Neptune appears to have one of the more powerful blowers on the market, but I think the lesson is the same: even a gas dryer consumes a fair amount of electricity in normal operation.
 
OIL VS. PROPANE HEATING

While the idea or switching back and forth made some sense in the late 1970s-the 1980s when we were talking about oil vs. natural gas it probably would make little sense today. A state of the art oil or gas furnace today is more efficient than anything that would be convertible plus propane is just too expensive anyway. Best things to do are insulation, weather stripping, storm windows and yes probably replacing the old windows. Other good solutions are smaller heating systems for parts of your home. Such as wood or pellet stoves, small propane room heaters [ vented ] only and of course electric space heaters. Heat pumps are also worth looking into especially if you have central AC. A whole house heat-pump will cut your oil use in less than half even in Connecticut. The oil heat would be used only when the weater is very cold. Be sure any new furnace-boiler is at least 92% effencent. You should also get a seperate heatpump water heater for year around use as this is far cheaper than using oil to heat water. I bough my partner the Rudd HP WH for Xmas we are going to Home Depot to pick it up in the next hour I will let you know how it works out.
 
Quote: Heat pumps are also worth looking into especially if you have central AC. A whole house heat-pump will cut your oil use in less than half even in Connecticut.

Yes but 1/2 the fuel-oil + an electic bill to run the heat-pump may not be less cost than a full fuel-oil bill.

As far as heat-pump hot-water heaters go, in the northeast if the heat is not being extacted from OUTSIDE the home, chances are you will just be paying to heat the basement or garage (or worse the living space itself) or wherever the hot water heater is located by way of a different source. I'd say these are best in the south or Hawaii or Puerto Rico where one wants "free" cooling and dehumdification of some of the living space.

I have also heard that some restaurants and commercial laundries in the south use heat-pump hot water heaters to boost (or create) their hot water supply while spot-cooling places people stand in commercial kithcens /laundries with the "waste" cooling.

My understanding is that electric heat, of any kind, in the northeast is the last possble resort in terms of high operating cost. [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-20:00]
 
Macroeconomics- the big picture

So many mid-sized and larger NYC apartment buildings now can burn both gas or oil to heat the apartments. The overall effect over time of switching from one fuel to the other, as it is economically favorable to do so, is that demand for the higher-priced fuel goes down, therfore driving prices down assuming a relatively constant supply. Conversely, the greater the demand for the less-expensive fuel boosts its price up assuming the supply remains the same. Over time, the price differences tend to even-out, unless supply is manipulated.

Bottom line is the price of gas and oil fuels tends to go up an down relative to each-other but normal marketing and economic forces (the downward slope of demand and the upward slope of supply) keep them competive to each other.

As was previously stated propane is a distlled product and is indeed a byproduct of other processies; it is generally very expensive compared to natural gas and oil, but less so than heating with electricity.

A more efficent and newer oil-fred system is in order for you and that will save you tremendously. Two back-up gas-fired VENTED direct-vent heaters will enable you to cut your oil use should oil prices spike. And it gives you the peace of mind that you don't have to burn oil if you dont want to.

On the plus side if you cook electrically there is no need to have an exhaust fan to get rid of poisonous byproducts of combustion and a whole bunch of heated home air with it.
Ditto an electric dryer's heat and humidity can be retained if properly filtered and care is taken to avoid mold and mildew in the home.
One can also have a dedicated exhaust fan in the bathroom for showers such that the heat and humidity is simply moved to another area in the house. Of course the fan for the toilet is best used often (and definitely NOT recycled) . LOL [this post was last edited: 1/16/2011-21:33]
 

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