Pastor Haggard: Part II

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Crimen nefandum, the unmentionable sin

Allen,

It's the pressure of the family, the friends, the church community, the society in general etc. etc. that give a lot of gays the feeling that they have no choice but to get into a marriage that they never would get into if they followed their feelings. The feelings that you can not speak about. The "crimen nefandum" or the unmentionable sin. Because of this, this pressure is bigger than you perhaps never will be able to understand. I was active in the gay movement in the 80's and this happened often. Very often. A while ago in another thread I told about a gay man who was forced into a marriage and who committed suicide in the end because he didn't see a way out. His wife discovered it and I had a long talk with her. Since then I think I understand how it works, although I have never been in this position.

I feel sorry for Haggard because he probably felt he was forced into a marriage. I think I know how he must have felt. I don't feel sorry for the consequenses he has to face now, I think he had a choice in what he preached against gays.

Moral of the story: The hormones are always stronger than the sermon. So watch out what you preach.
 
Remember that they always stress that there is no such thing as a gay identity, no such thing as "gay".

They accept male-female attraction as the only possible, natural way....and only within the bounds of matrimony.

That's the difference between how we see ourselves, and how they see themselves, and how they have no validation. Homosexuality is placed on an equivalent level as bestiality and pedophilia.

This is why I've always appreciated Tammy Faye Meissner's support of the community. To come out of a milieu of that kind of brainwashing, and to still be able to express warmth and compassion, leads me to believe she is a person of character, at least.

She is apparently not well these days, but I indeed hope she contacts Haggard and is able to help him.

I usually am not in favor of outing people because of the danger aspect, but in this case, I believe Jones recognized that Haggard and his movement were a far greater danger to the community, and realized there was a moral imperative to disclosing.

(But the cynical side of me says, one of Haggard's enemies got to him first, with a big payoff....)
 
Sex below the Bibile belt

I was so ignorant and isolated as a child, I was an adult, in college, before I knew what queer meant or that homosexuality was a lifestyle. I participated in volumes of gay sex in my adolescence, but thought was just a means of blowing off steam before marriage.
Living in the midwest and south and/or participating in ANY fundamental church in those states afforded the opportunity to have all the gay sex you could fit into your schedule. Mostly married and almost all christian.
Imagine my surprise to arrive in the open and progressive city of Seattle and learn it's easier to borrow $1,000.00 than to find someone willing to have sex.
All those 52 years, before I came out, I was a Baptist church pianist. I avoided any platform where I was a teacher, speaker or any opportunity where my "secret" could possible bring discredit to God, whom I loved sincerely.
I was so stinking sanctimonious and deeply resentled anyone who got to act out sexually because I was being so good and pure, suffering on my own cross.
I came out first, then divorced and then began to live a gay lifestyle. Does that make the pain and disappointment any easier for my wife? No. At least she and my four children weren't forced to stand and put a plastic smile on their face while I lied through my hair filled teeth, denying my indescretions.
I would have paid any price to flipp a switch and make the marriage work. Straight, coloring and living inside the lines is easier and has the blessing and support of the community and family.
God never intended or asked me to NOT be homosexual. I am tasked to be honest, strive to live fully conscious of the good and to cherish the life I was created for. I am the Beloved Child of God in whom He is well pleased.
History has demonstrated over and over, God does not bless dishonesty. Sooner or later Truth prevails and it is Truth that sets us all free.
I am sickened by what the actions of men like Haggard do, to tarnish the Sweetness and joy of living, supported and accepted by a loving Father God.
Kelly
 
sick...

I hate the fact that this guy refers to his "dark side" C'mon man you are human and a sinner just like everyone else!
Nobody is perfect.
I see the guy's fear though... and thats what promotes all the hate, Fear of what you don't understand.
 
I remember a story where a prominent gay minister went with others to ask at-the-time President Carter about the whole gays-in-the-military thing.

Carter looked disturbed, and the ministers asked him why.

He said the main problem he could see would be that the soldiers would have to take an oath saying they were being truthful....and what about all his big-time officers and generals who WERE actually gay that had said they were straight? That would make them liars!

This is NOT a political post about Carter or anyone else!

I'm just saying, the way people thought, and their thought processes were a hell of a lot more logical before evangelical Christian/fanatical Catholic/Orthodox Judaism, etc. fundamentalism began to set all the guidelines in this country.

It really IS how theocratic elements ruin lives, and how several generations of gay men, lesbians, and those who love us have allowed our faith traditions to be hijacked.
 
I suppose I came of age on the cusp of the gay rights movement, so it was different for me, but I knew what side my bread was buttered on fairly early. I had girlfriends, a few that I could easily have married, but in the end I couldn't do it. I cared for them too much to lie to them, and have them invest their life in something that would be a sham.

When I was still in my parent's sphere of influence I knew that coming out would mean being put into some sort of Catholic mental health program, so I kept my trap shut until I got on my own. I love my parents, and anything they would have done would have been out of love for me, but that would have been a disaster. I have a friend who went that route, and it wasn't pretty.
 
I was lucky because I grew up in New York.

I was fourteen in 1979, but looked about five years older and had absolutely no problem gaining admittance to bars, clubs, etc. New York was a lot more fun (and much more out of control) at the time, so I got to at least feel like I was a part of something bigger then myself (no pun intended)....

In addition, I was completely unsupervised, since my mother worked nights.

I agree with Unimatic that it's easier to be an openly gay kid (in New York or a big metro area, anyway) these days. When I was young, though, there definitely was a certain "dark side" aspect I guess I could have internalized, a feeling that the subway linked two very seperate and distinct worlds...

I actually believe kids don't get into half as much trouble as I did when I was their age, partially because of the aftereffects of the epidemic, partially because people are just a lot more conservative these days.
 
I have to agree with mostly everything that was said here. As this story keeps unfolding and it will get more sordid as time goes on. He will not be the last one that this happens to I am sure. These holyer than thou people who cast stones at others should really consider installing Pexiglass in their own houses. Plus when someone like Haggard preaches the hate of the GLBT community the way they do then go off and have sex or whatever with a male escort then they get what comes to them.
Like the old addage what comes go around comes around and it will bite ya in the backside every time.
As a PTC..part time Catholic...and living part time in Massachusetts I get to hear the crap that the bishops want the priests tell their parishioners about Gay marriage and how we shouldnt have the same rights as straights...it makes me think that they shouldnt say anything since Father O'Fondlin and Monseigner Molesta reared thier ugly heads not long ago. But some do not learn.I also think that if they get involved with politics then maybe they should be paying taxes like the rest of us.
 
I think churches should have to pay their taxes like anyone else. There is no reason why they should be exempt from taxes.
I hope that will be changed soon. They sure are political from their bully pulpits.
 
Pastor Haggard

I also must agree with much of what has been written on this thread.

A long time United Methodist here, I have held about every office, church organist, direct the Sunday School Christmas programs, you name it I have probably done it. However, I wonder if I would be treated with the same respect if I were to be open about being gay. It bothers me a great deal to feel like I have to live in a bubble and also makes me feel like the love of the Christ I serve is not in the people that serve Him.

We are created by God to be a specific and wonderful individual. So what makes people like Dobson and other conservative church leaders (and I use the term loosly) think they can take a man like Pastor Haggard and make him be any different that what his creator made him to be.

I do feel sorry for his wife and children and all their extended families. Pastor Haggard will remain in the center of my prayers as well. Mike Jones bringing this to the front of the Church is also a good thing, unfortunatly, the church will not realize they are the ones who need the most love and care. Like I said earlier, I am not sure I would be viewed as the same person if I were to stand in the pulpit and let them know I am Gay!
 
Church...

I've known more than a few Pastors in my life, and I am Godfather to a pastor's kid.
I'm a Missouri-Synod Lutheran, and am not "out" at church to the general public, but I am to my pastor. I don't know what the rest of church would say if they knew I was gay. I do know I have the support of some very dear people there no matter what.
At my church I sing in the choir, am on the board of elders, and was just appointed chairman of the newly formed organ committee. Every now and again I play the organ for services too.
Last weekend I was having a really hard time, I was finally letting go of alot of STUFF I'd been carrying around for a couple of months, so emotions were high, and in chuch on Sunday the choir was singing a piece I'd bought for us to sing, and the closing hymn was my favorite ever: "The Churches One Foundation" I made it thru the choir piece ok, but wasn't so lucky with the hymn, as we got into the 4th verse and the sopranos started their descant the floodgates opened and I fell completely apart. Thanks to those dear people in the balcony with me, who did little more than put an arm around a shoulder, squeeze my hand, and tell me to give it all to God and it will be ok. No questions were asked, just comfort given. I don't think it would matter one way or the other to them, gay or not, I am a part of their family.
Thats what it should be all about.
its called unconditional love.
Christ's greatest commandment is: Love one another as I have loved you.
 
I tend to feel much more compassion for the Average Joe who realizes his true sexuality and has to deal with the pain of breaking up his family.

I feel no compassion whatsoever for power/money-hungry minister who preaches intolerance and bigotry in the name of the Bible. He deserves every bit of bile and vitriol coming his way. Guys like this like to preach 'fire and brimstone' but they sure want pity when their own human frailties are exposed.

He gets none from me.
 
fundamentalist preaching is the issue

As a gay married man who came out earlier this year to my family, I can certainly relate to this topic and have some understanding for what Haggard is going through. I have a lot of compassion for both his wife and children. Getting married when gay has happened to so many people and may be difficult for some to understand. But I did it and am now working through that so that I can be the person I need to be.

The difference between me and what Haggard is going through is that I am not a fundamentalist. (Fortunately, I am Episcopalian (former RC) and am in a church that is OK with my being gay.) I was watching Mel White on TV this past Sunday (author of Stranger at the Gate and Religion gone Bad.) Rev. White is gay, formerly married as well as former fundamentalist minister and adviser to the religious right. He is currently a MCC minister. He explained the fundamentalist position very well. You cannot argue the gay point with a fundamentalist. They interpret the bible literally and only see being gay in a very precise way. There is unfortunately no other interpretation available to them. on the news today I heard that Rev. Haggard now sees the "error of his ways" and will submit to oversight and "being cured" by James Dobson. What a mess that will be!!! I feel so bad that he believes that he can be cured. What a sad life he has to live.

RichM
 
I'm rolling on the floor laughing my ass off!

See how the mighty have fallen! I love it. I don't feel sorry for ANY of these people-except for the poor rent boy that had to do the icky with this creep. All these two faced weirdos need to be outed ASAP. It will be hard for his kids but maybe they will learn to THINK FOR THEMSELVES instead of being bible-banging automatons. "Pastor" Ted is going to subject himself to more self-loathing through the ministry of those crackpots like Dobson. He needs to have a nice coming out party, apologize to the MILLIONS of people he has defamed and LIVE his life instead of that silly "I'm bearing my cross" bullshit.

I'm sure in a few months he will be back on the scene, claiming to be "cured". Nauseating

Let's try to remember too that religion is a BUSINESS. Nothing more and nothing less.

Sorry-I don't mean to offend my friends here. Just had to rant for a moment....
 
"They interpret the bible literally....."
Does this mean they kill their neighbour if he cuts the lawn on Sunday?

"Let's try to remember too that religion is a BUSINESS"
That's right. Tax the chruches. No more free ride!

Ken
 
"tax the churches"

You know, Unimatic suggested considering revoking their tax-exempt status, and more and more, that's looking like an idea we should consider. On the Catholic channel this morning, there was a priest with a POINTER and a BLACKBOARD pointing out what pro-life candidates that communicants should vote for...and don't forget to bring your friends to the polls!

That's going too far. If he would really be into doing God's business, he would have directed them to go to church prior to voting and pray, and ask for God's direction on how to vote and who to trust.

Supposedly Haggard intends to submit himself to Dr. James Dobson for "discipline and correction"....

That's a strange choice. Why bother...I'd be willing to do it for free!

"You've been a very bad boy, Ted..."....lol.

They are all simply insane.
 

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