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At Wal-mart yesterday

they had Persil sensitive skin for $11.99

I already had some of the Powder and liquid so I passed

I guess I am a little underwhelmed, It's a premium detergent, commanding a premium price, but I don't see it any better or worse than Tide.

I may keep these in the drawer under the washer, but Tide will still be my main detergent.
 
I tried the Persil Power-Perls Intense Fresh powder the other day on a load of bath sheets.

 

They came out clean enough, but rather on the stiff/scratchy side. Previously I've been using a variety of liquid detergents, and the towels usually come out much softer than with the Persil powder. So it's back to the liquid stash for bath towels.

 

Next I'll try a load of colors (shirts, slacks, etc.) that I normally launder with Sears Ultra boosted with STPP.

 
 
Hi Guys,

Curiosity got the better of me and I caved in and ordered some Power Pearls Intense Fresh and the Original Liquid to be shipped to Australia (so much more expensive than it has been previously for some reason).

I love them both so far but did have to remove the silly pour spout from the powder because its just impractical.

Love the scent of both, washed some sheets in the pearls and they are just divine after a windy line dry. Shirts in the liquid and smell wonderful and fresh. All food stains gone even in a cool wash. Very happy with them.

Matt
 
I said before, will repeat now
I think persil got really overrated to unthinkable levels in the US, say because now there's the fashion of Europe and european stuff is "trendy" so also because of the evident Europeization of America plan by the govs, say because Miele pumped it like they pumped their machines, Germans are good sellers also, they can sell well a story like the italians always do...yes, I mean it's not that is crap, but on both sides of the pond now the detergent market is pretty much mature, as far as I'm concerned there're detergents that will do the exact same job and even better than Persil, both here that in the US, of course that's my opinion and finding about, I buy Dixan sometimes but even though I don't like P&G moves about marketing etc.. I gotta say Dash, EU Ariel, mexican Ariel and US Tide beat Dixan always...but so does other powders like italian Sole (dixan is what is henkel Persil in Italy- same exact thing as German one)....
I can find cheaper powders giving me the same and also better results for half the cost of it....
Really it's not that great for me...
 
Yes, we understand your point.

However the United States is *not* Europe and until *very* recently good quality detergents for "HE" or even just front loading washing machines have been scarce.

P&G's first offering of Tide HE was a disaster. Unless carefully dosed it created just as much froth and was hard to rinse as normal Tide.

Where Miele and even AEG (via Canada) were concerned you are talking about washing programs vastly different than anything else on the US market at that time.

American detergents even IIRC Tide "HE" are/were designed for high dilution (top loading washing machines) with short cycles (wash about 10 to 18 minutes), and not the long often profile washes of European machines.

I like many have gotten very good results using older American detergents (especially those loaded with phosphates), but lately have noticed results in both the Miele and Lavamat are better with European detergents.

Fact is only detergents from Europe (older Persil 59 and the various Persil, Dato, Super Croix, OMO, etc...) are the only detergents I use in the Lavamat. Quite honestly am moving towards that with the older Miele as well. Just find results are consistently great with less issues of froth and difficulty rinsing.

Of the recent offerings from Tide both the Free and Gentle and the now defunct Coldwater Free are actually pretty good liquid detergents. If dosed correctly have little issues with foaming and stain/soil removal are excellent. However the liquid/gel offerings from Europe still have slight edge in terms of overall performance.

Front loading washing machines in the USA tended or still do have rather short cycles than say many European machines. Laundromat washers in particular still do not run very long cycles. This means you could get away with typical American detergents due to lack of worries about potency giving out over long wash times.
 
Launderess...dear..
Look that I am well aware that Europe is not the United states, but I think I can speak about detergents since I buy lots of american detergents and I used and tried pretty much all you can find on the average US market, some South American and european...
I am well aware of the early HE low foam products and how they do in A FL..remember I used many and currently have one in my "petit-collection"...
High diluition may be a matter...but as far as I'm concerned is not really that Big to justify the success Persil have now that anyway most HE products seems to do great in any machine...
I could have gotten it if the insertion of persil on market would have happened long ago when Low foam/front loader powders were re-gearing up..but not now..well I mean..I don't get the big deal about it.
The matter of the "profile" of a wash and detergents may have had more importance in the now-long-gone times we didn't have Taed and percarbonate, oxygen activators etc were not common but only plain perborate, but today's detergents pretty much all got TAED and or anyway oxygen bleach activators that provides an effective bleaching already in warm-medium water.
European front loaders typically had longer wash cycles because in many european countries they have to heat their own water and were meant to do that anyway vs what is an historical Hot fill in the US.
Initially in the past infact you gotta had an initial phase where enzymes and surfactans worked and as the wash proceeded oxy bleach was engaged, that meant further longer wash times needed as bleaching action was engaged later in the wash portion as the water reached proper hotness...

Of course as you say American detergents tended and so do now to do all at once, but so does european detergents now from decades, especially recently that are always more developped to deliver same in further lower temperatures, now even "cool" 15-20 degrees as they state on the packages...
In the US there are also variations including an increased amount of bleach which counterbalance the fact that many low end cheap powders doesn't by default in the US, but is kind of same here where the percarbonate in low end powders is so little or so bad quality not to even make a difference, but the difference in the US is that these low end stuff typically have a slightly more expensive but still cheap variation with bleach, here not.... i find it a more intelligent approach.
I believe the cheap basic formula of these low end ones doesn't as you can always add the kind of bleach (LCB, oxy or whatevr) action you prefer in any case, I believe that is because in the US there might the chance that some families doesn't have the possibility to use water hot enough to really get an oxy bleaches working resulting in a mere waste and an increase of price that would result in losing a slice of market, these folks I mentioned gotta use LCB as opposed to Europe where as said all of the machines typically will never have the incapability to get the water hot enough to get an oxy bleach do it's job, even though many do use LCB the same.
Another curious thing is that this bleach/ultra white/oxy action whatever you call it tendence to put an increased bleach amount is being exported over here, where you now have many detergents in ultra white/ultra bleach/with vanish etc versions..
Tide was among the first with this attitude of increased bleach, even though the original versions and pretty much most P&G offerings and in general all the TOL P&G or not powder stuff contains percarbonate and or activators the same by default, just less of them vs the W/bleach, both versions of Tide with bleach or original are indeed very good, the original variation of Tide is already better than persil in my opinion.
But again so is mexican ariel or Gain which for half the cost just do the very same of persil IMO, hence why I say the detergents are mature pretty much everyhwere and can't quite get all this craze about Persil.
But I agree that initially persil may have gotten the good fame it did also because it was designed for a front loader while in the US these kind of products were not around since alot of times and they were just kind of breaking-in ..I just question why is it still so "Big deal" now and why the persil...
A choice more is anyway always welcome though..don't you agree?

[this post was last edited: 3/26/2015-08:58]
 
Unlike Europe where TAED bleach activators have become generic, P&G holds and has locked down all patents for such oxygen bleaching systems (based on NBOS)in the USA. Thus the only products you see with activated bleaching technology are Tide other detergents from P&G such as Gain that have received trickle down technology.

P&G also has released a plethora of activated oxygen bleach additives (Tide here, Ariel across the pond).

All my washing machines drain into sink so am able to judge the quality of rinse water. Modern P&G powdered detergents leave a chalky residue on the side of the sink, Persil does not. Cheer powder actually discolored the metal tub of my Hoover Twin Tub.

Persil powder and mega-perls are far more forgiving in terms of rinsing if over dosed than Tide.

Cannot think of one "low" or "cheap" powdered detergent in the USA that contains oxygen bleach. Biz is sold as either a bleach or laundry pre-soak/stain remover depending upon whatever the new owners seem to prefer. In any event it is no longer made by P&G so does not contain their activated bleaching system.

In my area of NYC there is only one powder left on store shelves, Tide, and even that can be hard to find. Balance of the space has given over to liquids or pod format detergents. Thus do not know where you are finding these "cheap" powders, and cannot therefore comment.

My Lavamat is a cold fill only machine and thus by nature will do a "profile wash" if temps above "cold" are selected. It will go further if one selects "stain" option. The cycles are long and while they can be shortened even then the shortest cotton/linen/normal runs about 80mins. Allowing the machine to fill with warm or even hot water confuses the thing as it messes with the set heating parameters.

Tide with bleach powder on its own never shifted certain stains the way Persil or even other European detergents in my stash can with ease. Have had good results with using Tide cold-water liquid in a soaking bath over night, and long wash cycles in either the Miele or Lavamat.

Will put my stash of both vintage and modern detergents up against yours or anyone else's any day of the week. Increasingly for my money and time am coming round to preferring a "one step solution". That is add one product, start machine and that is that.
 
I don't know about that trickle down tecnology, but I can tell for sure Gain, Tide and Ariel as for others washed better than Dixan- Persil do..and you could see and feel the good bleaching action, Tide and mexican Ariel shifted stains Dixan always have hard times to deal with giving better whites to me.
Findings...
I get some chalky resiudes on the sink using Dixan and Persil indeed...my machines also drains in the sink and agree there's not better judge than ourselves for that..what I find leaving more resiudes though is Lever's British persil, even though it less foaming it leaves other residues.
P&G also released lots of bleaches additives here, in the past as well that keeps being sold, we recall Ace that was on since the early 90s and of course as every where else the are now the additves of the same brands of detergents Ariel or Dash upon the country.
Over here each manufacturer company came up with an additive at some Point we talk of 90s as well, RB had vanish, Henkel had Sil, Bolton Manitoba had Omino Bianco, p&G Ace etc..
Low-end/cheap detergents in the US who contains oxy stuff in original versions are many store brands, Oxydol, The lever surf before being sold did, Ariel (cheap indeed)...to name few... so there are..then there are always the versions with bleach, but as I stated it's true that on general note and speaking generally and largely cheap/BOL ones in the US doesn't typically contain bleach in their original/clasic/basic versions, and I suppose it's for the reasons I mentioned, which is what I defined a more intelligent approach.
I don't certainly shop in NY even because the prices over there are sort of crazy vs elsewhere in the US, I agree that the choice in NYC stores and supermarkets is beyond pitiful for what concerns the powders, but also for liquids it's not that "nice" but there are places around US where powders are common to be sold, I've read in another thread you are snobby regarding shopping at walmart...well that's a place where you can find plenty of powders...

"Will put my stash of both vintage and modern detergents up against yours or anyone else's any day of the week. Increasingly for my money and time am coming round to preferring a "one step solution". That is add one product, start machine and that is that. "
I don't quite get what you mean with this launderess, could you please explain better?
[this post was last edited: 3/26/2015-11:04]
 
Walmart: Many other Americans do not like that place for various reasons having nothing to do with who or whom shops there; more like the Walton family and how they run their business. But we aren't on that right now.

Trickle down: P&G developed and holds all patents for activated oxygen bleaching systems for the USA market using NBOS. You can see them listed on the sides of P&G detergents/bleaches by looking up the patent numbers listed.

P&G began with Biz which was originally a pre-soak. They then transferred the technology to Oxydol. That product went from a soap to detergent with oxygen bleach to activated oxygen bleach. Finally P&G developed Tide with Bleach when they perfected their oxygen bleaching system.

As P&G's premier powdered detergent all innovations first go to TWB and at one time remained. Now P&G has allowed some but no all of that technology to "trickle down" to Gain powder with bleach, Tide Stain Release powder, Tide Stain Boost/Vivid Pods and so forth.

Because TWB cleaned so well and could be used as a pre-wash or pre-soak sales of Biz dropped and it soon became almost an after thought brand. Have a huge stash of older Biz "bleach" and you really do not need to use it with a detergent as it contains everything needed on its own including enzymes. Oxydol also became a "forgotten" brand over shadowed by TWB. Both have now been sold off.

As stated previously in this forum the reason P&G, Unilever and so forth are developing these bleach/enzyme additives has to do with the rise of liquid or gel detergents over powders. Liquid detergents cannot/do not contain oxygen bleaching systems. Some do not contain complex enzyme cocktails either. Most every consumer testing group on both sides of the pond note liquid/gel detergents do not whiten or remove all marks as well as powdered detergents with bleach.

What to do? Sell a stand alone product that replaces what is missing; oxygen bleach, an activator, and perhaps some alkaline agent.

This is what one means by an "one step solution". With Persil powder or a few other European detergents I don't have to add anything else. Just put the powder in dispenser or pod in drum, close door, start machine and walk away.

Persil, Ariel and a few other European powdered detergents in my stash will deal with all manner of marks and soil on laundry *by themselves*. I don't have to add extra oxygen bleach or anything else.
 
Case In Point

Have decided to start using some of the vast amounts of European detergents in my stash.

Last night did several loads of bed linen using the Super Croix pods. Measured out detergent into a dosing ball (an entire pod is too much product for a load of sheets), put into machine, shut door, started machine and went away. Came back and removed spotless and brilliantly white/clean linens. No muss, no fuss, nothing more added including STPP.
 
My bottle of Persil Power Pearls powder arrived Wednesday from Walmart ($4 shipping beats a trip to the store, which is a 20 minute drive each way for me). I think the spout design is terrible. As others have mentioned, powder accumulates in the neck.

I'd much prefer German-style plastic bag packets that I can empty into my own sealed container...preferably one with a wide lid that allows me to use a coffee measure to dose the detergent. I use old OyxClean containers, but clear Glad food storage containers would also work fine. One could label them with a felt pen, if more than one kind is used (I have Persil Universal and Color MegaPearls, both brought back from Germany).

I had just opened my last remaining packet of Universal MegaPerls when I heard about Persil at Walmart. Therefore, I will resist trying the Walmart stuff until I have used up my existing packet of German Universal Mega-Perls. It does look and smell like the German original. I am happy to hear good results from those who have tried their initial product.

PS I knew one of the Walton family children quite well and was underwhelmed. What a dolt. For that reason, plus the way their treat their employees, I have not set foot in any of their stores for the past decade. I have made two online purchases in the past twelve years: one bottle of Persil, and in 2013 a Vizio smart tv---and only because the model I wanted was sold out at Best Buy, Costco, and on Amazon. Walmart was the only retailer left with any units in stock (and they sold out the day after I purchased mine). At the time of its introduction, the model in question was extremely popular and literally flew off the shelves faster than even Vizio anticipated.
 
Yes I see, I'm also of the school of thought only the detergent should be enough, always said that, and liquids or pods never do for me for the well known reasons you mentioned, not much for loads like sheets which don't see much dirt, but for stuff like kitchen clothing, rags tablecloths etc, or also colors when medium to extremely dirty/stained.
About liquids and pods I find Henkel's ones being watered down/ineffective vs what are the P&G liquids or others offerings over here, especially for what it costs, never tried the super croix pods but Henkel's stuff is rather too much soapy/frothy and nothing more than that...they generally stink too with exceptions like Bio Presto, liquid Tide and pods also don't do for me but it's still better than Henkel's stuff.
Today's Liquid/gel dixan (which is not nearly comparable to the gel they used to make back in the days) to get a decent slippery wash liquor i'd need to add something to soften water, otherwise it's like I didn't even put some soap forget a detergent, I don't see a good enzyme action in enzimatic stains either..and as you go "TOLler" and "BOLler" with General (Spee in germany), Bio Presto, or german Weiss Raus enzyme action is even worse. OTOH as said liquids never did well for me.

I generally avoid powders missing bleaches also.
I'm actually againts the idea of buying something more when a detergent, at least what would be my ideal detergent could and *should* have everything to guarantee that alone, especially when price is already high, but that is for me, infact I test detergent effectiveness on that..if it doesn't do alone that's no good for me.
Of course though i also said that in the US or whatever market would actually be wise now to distinguish among products with bleach or not, for the simple fact that different people, for different reasons prefer or need to use different bleaching methods.
But as of today I find intelligent to keep out bleaches from classic/basic formulas and offer a W/bleach version for those who have the possibility and want to go with oxy bleaching or simply find it best for them..detergent makers should also do some laundry educational campaigns on that, and generally build their business on that, just think how many percarbonate goes down wasted and not advantaged-of in those"cold water wash",LCB user folk's drains... not on gimmicks.
But that's another matter...
[this post was last edited: 3/26/2015-11:13]
 
Passatdoc

I just dumped my Persil Perls into the same container I dump my Megaperls into, and then dose by tablespoons/teaspoons. When these Perls from Walmart came around I dumped the tablespoons into a cup just to measure the amount of Mils.

With the German Persil I have never used any other additives including chlorine bleach since the instructions on my machine said "never to use it" plus I didn't use it that much in a top loader either because I don't like it , and so with these Persil Perls so far I have not added anything extra either. Infact I don't have anything here at home to add.

Try the Persil Pers without additives and let us know of your experience with them.
 
Powder Detergents with Oxy-Bleach..

From my local Walmart. Sun Powder, Purex Powder, All Powder, Gain Powder, along with Oxiclean & Arm and Hammer Powder. I think even Fab Powder has it. 

 

I personally wouldn't consider "Gain" or "Oxiclean" a cheap powder, but, I may be alone in that. All & Surf are actually very good performers on most stains, despite their low price tags. 

 

I used to really like Tide Original Powder, until there nasty scent change. Even with it being Free, still don't like using the stuff. 

 

:-)

 
 
Perhaps Should Have Been More Clear

Yes, many powdered detergents do have oxygen bleach. However none outside of those made by P&G and where they deem wish it to be so have bleach activators. My vintage box of Rinso has sodium perborate. Clorox II for Colors has the same IIRC. Ditto Snowy bleach powder, and tons of other things.

Activated oxygen bleaching systems make a huge difference when sodium perborate is used and even to an extend sodium percarbonate. The latter is nicknamed the "cold water" oxygen bleach because it will work in warm or even cool/cold water especially if contact time is increased. However the use of NBOS or TAED with oxygen bleaches creates peracetic acid in situ. PAA is not only a better bleach than hydrogen peroxide it provides greater disinfection properties. PAA is what breweries use to sanitize bottles before beer goes in.

This powerful bleaching is why you often hear person complain Tide With Bleach "faded" their colored laundry even when used in cool or cold water. It also why Persil and many European detergents with such systems developed color versions without. One or two off washes with say Persil Universal probably won't fade your dark blue shirt. However routine use is another matter.
 
Launderess...i think we got you well first time..
But we were speaking of cheap powders containing bleach which you said you couldn't think of.. and mitch listed some...
If we wanna speak about cheap detergents in Europe though , I could start with Italy listing you MSDS of the common cheap powder you find over here, offered both by RB and Henkel (we don't have Lever involved in laundry here) that doesn't contain perborate, TAED or any activators the same...just carbonate peroxide.
I came upon a few detergents from small manufacturers that just had perborate, stuff who kept the same formula of many moons ago, stuff that probably wouldn't sell well because would not do well in the average "below 60 degrees trend" washes of today....I hope for their sales they changed it now.
So to be even more clear..perhaps it was me saying "pretty much all" that confused us... I was speaking generally about P&G TOL or not, so including stuff like Gain who are not TOL indeed yet it includes the NOBS..so it was "moi" who perhaps gave birth to this misunderstanding? I apologize.
So...at least here activators in the cheap or BOL powders, forget most stores brand or Private labels, are not *that* common either....the only non-TOL powders I could find TAED in were ones from German discounts like LIDL , yet a large production meant for a large Europewide distribuition, actually they're known marks (just google formil, Almat, Tandil) so much that in some counties they've even been equiparated to stuff like Ariel..but actually not quite cheap (lidl's formil for example costs 8.99 as much as Dash box cost here)and not all formil version does..for ex the XXL box doesn't..anyway still not falling in the cheap BOL category...
Of course all the TOL and some of the MOL offerings (europewide speaking) does have taed but so is in the US with the P&G's "Nonano" thing (am sure can't spell it well) which now owns pretty much 60% or 70% of Laundry market in the US... P&G it's bigger there than here ...less competitors, hence kind of monopolize the market...
But here is my initial affermation, that in the US even though owned by one company you could find TAED or similar the same as here.
Here it's just that you have some more TOL offerings with different names, scents and from some more different manufacturers, USA is huge but a country on it's own, europe is an union of many with internal micro-economies belonging to each country...but for how many detergent/brands you find in each country, always TOL and expensive they remain in each one, in any ways here was why I don't get the big deal about persil's white and cleaning boasting like if it were a thing americans never seen before... that's because I said that I found Tide, Gain to be even better for me in many aspects vs the persil not just about cleaning and whiteness, megaperls (german original) don't also have the damn perborate all people speaks about it allegedly has (see for example MSDS in reply 158) ..but that's a finding..and of course I get that a choice more is always welcome, especially if you don't like Tide or P&G for various reasons, say rinsing (which again, I can't quite share) or frothing whatever.
Also:
True that some TOL detergents with activators in Europe tend to contain Perborate along, say Persil and Dash/Ariel, but as far as I see it, detergents in Europe also include much more ingredients both involved in softening and surfactancy and typical formulas for low diluition vs a hybrid-combo (for both TL and FL) adrressed formula in the US, thus I question if that is because in europe it's left less space in the formulation for more of or "richer" percarbonate, and and so here is why they needed to put a stronger thing like perborate along in order to guarantee the bleaching action using less quantity meant as "volume it keeps" of bleaching compound due to the already large consistency involved in the European TOL products formulas?
Percarbonate takes more space than perborate for what it does....
Perborate alone as additive is also sort of outlawed here unfortunately, still available imported from some other places "under the counter" but rare to be found.
In any ways...all you said was heard loud and clear here...
:)

[this post was last edited: 3/27/2015-21:55]
 
Sudsmaster...
You may have luck trying out some stuff for Hunter's laundry..they are claimed being scent killer and meant for that.

Well...the candy store/rotten fruit scent modern detergents have may also increase the chance to attract some preys...hunters should think about that.... we may have a swap...LOL
[this post was last edited: 3/27/2015-19:45]
 
Supersuds....scent suppressor don't exist..but..detergents...
You might be lucky trying out some detergents for Hunter's laundry, they are meant (or so claims) to be scent killer, important thing for hunters...
Actually...
With the candy store/rotten fruit scent modern detergents have, maybe they can even act to attract some preys...hunters should think about that...LOL
 
Launderess...i think we got you well first time..
But we were speaking of cheap/low end U.S powders containing bleach which you said you couldn't think of.. and Mitch just listed some to you...
If we wanna speak about cheap detergents in Europe though , I could start with Italy listing you MSDS of the common cheap powder you find over here, offered both by RB and Henkel (we don't have Lever involved in laundry here) that doesn't contain perborate, TAED or any activators the same...just carbonate peroxide and many of them in pitiful quantities and or quality/saturation.
I came upon a few detergents from small manufacturers that just had perborate, stuff who kept the same formula of many moons ago, stuff that wouldn't sell well because would not do well in the average "below 60 degrees trend" washes of today....I hope for their sales they changed it now.
So to be even more clear..perhaps it was me saying "pretty much all" that confused us... I was speaking generally about P&G TOL or not, so including stuff like Gain who are not TOL indeed yet it includes the NOBS..so it was "moi" who perhaps gave birth to this misunderstanding? I apologize.
So...at least here activators in the cheap or BOL powders, forget most stores brand or Private labels, are not *that* common either....the only non-TOL powders I could find TAED in were ones from German discounts like LIDL , yet a large production meant for a large Europewide distribuition, actually they're known marks (just google formil, Almat, Tandil) so much that in some counties they've even been equiparated to stuff like Ariel..but actually not quite cheap (lidl's formil for example costs 8.99 as much as Dash box cost here)and not all formil version does..for ex the XXL box doesn't..anyway still not falling in the cheap BOL category...
Of course all the TOL and some of the MOL offerings (europewide speaking) does have taed but so is in the US with the P&G's "Nonano" thing (am sure can't spell it well) which now owns pretty much 60% or 70% of Laundry market in the US... P&G it's bigger there than here ...less competitors, hence kind of monopolize the market...
But here is my initial affermation, that in the US even though owned by one company you could find TAED or similar the same as here.
Here it's just that you have more different TOL offerings altoghterer from various countries but each one belonging to his own country, so better speak of different names, with different scents but from same manufacturers, and yes some more companies using taed in TOL than USA (P&G)), USA is huge but a country on it's own, Europe is an union of many with internal micro-economies belonging to each country...but for how many detergent/brands you find in each country, always TOL and expensive they remain, and choice may also reduce to be just few TOL offerings with Taed like it is in Italy, in any ways here we arrive to why I don't get the big deal about persil's white and cleaning boasting like if it were a thing americans never seen before... that's because I said that I found Tide, Gain to be even better for me in many aspects vs the persil not just about cleaning and whiteness, megaperls (german original) don't also have the damn perborate all people speaks about it allegedly has (see for example MSDS in reply 158) ..but that's a finding not a fact...and of course I get that a choice more is always welcome, especially if you don't like Tide or P&G for various reasons, say rinsing (which again, I can't quite share) or frothing whatever.
Also:
True that some TOL detergents with activators in Europe tend to contain Perborate along, say Persil and Dash/Ariel, but as far as I see it, detergents in Europe also include much more ingredients both involved in softening and surfactancy and typical formulas for low diluition vs a hybrid-combo (for both TL and FL) adrressed formula in the US, thus I question if that is because in europe it's left less space in the formulation for more of or "richer" percarbonate, and and so here is why they needed to put a stronger thing like perborate along in order to guarantee the bleaching action using less quantity meant as "volume it keeps" of bleaching compound due to the already large consistency involved in the European TOL products formulas?
Percarbonate takes more space than perborate for what it does....
Perborate alone as additive is also sort of outlawed here unfortunately, still available imported from some other places "under the counter" but rare to be found.
In any ways...all you said was heard loud and clear here...
:)

[this post was last edited: 3/27/2015-22:48]
 
TAED vs NOBS

Have had the spelling backwards, sorry.

In any event TAED isn't used in the Untied States, and NOBS is confined to Japan and the United States. The patents long ran out on TAED which is how Henkel, Unilever and anyone else over there who wants to develop/use an activated bleaching system based on that chemical can. As stated P&G has managed to keep a lock on NOBS here in North America so won't see that activated oxygen bleaching system anywhere else but in P&G laundry or automatic dishwasher products.

IIRC NOBS works well with how Americans did washing until recently; at lower temperatures and using high dilution detergents, in short top loading washers that did not heat their own water. TAED OTOH is the opposite and was developed with the long profile washes commonly found in Europe. TAED was responsible for allowing Persil and others to advertise "turning down the dial" and housewives still able to achieve boil wash results but at lower wash temps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraacetylethylenediamine

These activators were necessary when sodium perborate was the main oxygen bleach.

Sodium perborate does not give good bleaching results in cool or even warm water. Well it will if you increase contact time. It does however really get going at temps of 120F or even >140F; boil washing. The original Persil worked so well because wash was boiled either in a pot or by machine. Biz, Oxydol and even the original Tide with Bleach all contained sodium perborate.
 
There's an easy enough solution for the oxygen bleach thingie.

 

Just get some Oxyclean and add some to the wash. It should activate quite well at warm temps, maybe even at tempered cold (which I rarely use and don't recommend). Oxyclean is mainly sodium percarbonate, which activates at lower temps than sodium perborate.

 

Some US detergents even include Oxyclean in their formulations. Sears Ultra Plus had an Oxyclean formulation for a while; it cleans very well, doesn't oversuds in a Miele, and seems to have fairly good bleaching action. It also seemed to be more gentle on fabrics than most powders (leaving them softer).  Unfortunately I haven't seen any Sears Ultra Plus with Oxyclean for a while now.

 

Here's the Wiki entry on NOBS:

<blockquote>
 

Sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate (NOBS) is an important component of laundry detergents and bleaches. It is known as a bleach activator for active oxygen sources, allowing formulas containing hydrogen peroxide releasing chemicals (specifically sodium perborate, sodium percarbonate, sodium perphosphate, sodium persulfate, and urea peroxide to effect bleaching at lower temperatures.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[1]</sup> NOBS was developed by Procter & Gamble in 1983<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[2]</sup> and was first used in American laundry detergents in 1988.<sup id="cite_ref-Grime_3-0" class="reference">[3]</sup> NOBS is the main bleach activator used in the U.S.A. and Japan.<sup id="cite_ref-Hirschen_4-0" class="reference">[4]</sup> Compared to TAED, which is the predominant bleach activator used in Europe, NOBS is efficient at much lower temperatures. At 20 °C NOBS is 100 times more soluble than TAED in water.<sup id="cite_ref-Reinhardt1_5-0" class="reference">[5]</sup> When attacked by the perhydroxyl anion (from hydrogen peroxide), NOBS forms the peroxy acid peroxynonanoic acid and releases the leaving group sodium 4-hydroxybenzene sulfonate, which is an inert by-product.

</blockquote>
 

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