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Jeff,

I am sorry you lost him. You two must have been living in the same area of the Bay or close to Scott and me back in the early '80's.
We were monogamous and married (handfasted in a Celtic ceremony); neither of us had any taste for the scene (he was an ex-smoker and no-one is more hysterical about 2nd hand smoke) and I don't smoke or drink.
But those were just wonderful days and wonderful times - I often think back to California in those days.

When RR came into office, people in the US government like me were told to pack our bags. My boss protested...our division lost over 40% of the staff...but it was to no avail. Weird, to this day you hear the military bitching about not having translators and intelligence (I was neither. Well, nobody here would associate me with intelligence anyway.)

After Scott's death, I left San Francisco. In retrospect, it was a very good thing to do. The deaths of friends here went on for nearly 15 years, it was horrible. I can't imagine what it must have been like there. You'd think people would notice how very many gay men took care of their dying lovers and friends, but one seldom hears of their heroism. If ever proof were needed that our relationships are real and genuine...that was it.
 
Keven, at the time Chuck lived in the Mission District and I was in Tiburon. Like you guys, I was never into the SF scene and refused to move down there. I didn't even like visiting. By the mid-80s everyone knew what was up regarding HIV and the community was divided into two groups, those who played by the rules and those who didn't. There was no shortage of guys in that second category. I couldn't stand watching the same preventable tragedy play itself out, over and over and over again.

The Presidio was another matter though. I loved visiting Chuck's base and he loved Marin, so it worked out great during the time we were together.

Bottom line is, Chuck was the result of 35 years of repression. His parents had essentially disowned him (even though he had been married and had a daughter), he had gone into the service at age 18 and all he had known his adult life was discipline and a double life. So when he retired from the Army he was like a kid in a candy store. I begged him to commit to a monogamous relationship, preferably with me but at least with someone. Considering his past I understand why he wasn't interested.

And your last point is very well taken. It's surreal reading some posts on this board which rant about my baseless hatred and unresolved psychological issues, and I wonder if the poster has ever held in his arms a living human skeleton that is 6'4" tall and weighs 93 pounds. I'd guess not.
 
I do understand...

Folks,

I do understand what you are all saying about the Republican Party. I even think that you're right, for the most part.

But, honestly, what exactly have the democrats done for you?
Let's see, Mr. Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act, and the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy that has caused more service members to be rejected from the armed services for being gay, bi, or otherwise queer.

While I do believe in choosing the least of two evils, I also suggest that you never, ever, ever, let your guard down. Ever!
I do not believe that the democrats are any more friendly toward gays than republicans. They are simply trying to use you. Politics is really the art of the cynical - so you MUST be careful.

Nate
 
Jeff,

I am sorry you went through that. You and everyone else who has had to go down that road.
I sure am glad you're here. It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to compare those of libertarian bent (Conate is another thinker) to what I see the Libertarians doing nationally (I mean, Barr?!!!!) Guess every paradigm shifts and I need to update my knee-jerk reflexes - you guys have shown me that.
By the way - I left SF in 1983 after Scott's death. His mom was dying of cancer, I auctioned off everything we owned and gave her the proceedings with the rider that upon her death, the rest go to a Foundation for widows and orphans of police and fire department employees. His sister tried to contest his will - he'd left everything to me with the request I take care of his mom, explaining in the will that under no circumstances was his sister to get at the money, his lawyer really tied that one down - but no way a judge in Northern California was going to overturn that one, not even back then.
You know, I wonder if some of this attack against us is not financially motivated...
 
I think that the national libertarian party is part of the p

You cannot take these folks seriously.

Sigh.
 
Kevin and Jeff,

I'm so sorry to hear of your losses. I definitely do understand second-hand what that must have been like. I am Tony's second partner. His first past away after 14 years of them being together because of an inoperable brain tumor. Yes, it doesn't always have to be AIDS, but the ending was all the same. Even though I never met his first love I find myself thinking about him a lot sometimes. I feel like I should know him for some reason even though I'm not filling his shoes. What I do know is Tony stuck it out till the bitter end and I will forever love him at least for that. The stories are just horrific of the trials he went through to take care of a someone who was ill and nearing death for such a long time. It speaks volumes of his character and for both of you gentlemen as well.

And if you don't mind my saying...Chuck was quite a looker!

:-)

Jon
 
Jon,

Scott was killed in the line of duty, he didn't suffer (thank goodness) and my toughest day with him was when he decided that he wanted a pure-white carpet. Also in the open kitchen.
He gave in on the kitchen, but gosh all-mighty, never pure-white anything ever again. Coffee-brown with little fuzzy cat-hair looking patterns and doggy-prints, yeah, I can do that.
But, yeah, Chuck's cute.
My positive attitude towards marriage is based on my parent's happy marriage and the all-too-short time I had. If the man I love does me the honor, I hope I can make him as happy.
By the by, Norway just threw out domestic partnerships and enacted marriage for all - gay or straight. Last I heard, the Fjørds are still there...
You know, it wouldn't hurt folks to take a look at Europe, it really wouldn't. Or, heck - how about Canada. I know it's hard to find on a map, but even Alberta still has it's prairie and the wind still blows...
 
Too funny. Reminds of my mom's all-white furniture covers. She spent thousands of dollars on a new living room set, and I think I actually saw it twice in 16 years.

Congrats to Norway, we'll have a couple Troika Bars tonight to celebrate.

Chuck and I met at a birthday party of a mutual friend. He walked in and it was like the first Tony/Maria scene in West Side Story. I literally could not take my eyes off him, and everything else in the room faded to a fuzzy blur.
 
haha...

Pure white huh? I'm usually pretty open-minded with some of Tony's ideas but I would have had to put my foot down on solid white stuff. I can throw a good tantrum if I need to. :-)

I can't agree more with you guys on Europe. I've been over there so many times now and people, for the most part, are so at ease with stuff like this. Some militaries over there even allow it openly and it's been proven that the morale is so much higher because of that. People here need to quit dumping champagne out in the streets and start realizing that those people on the other side of the pond really have a lot figured out. We aren't too good to get advice and take lessons over here.

I always knew I was of German origin but what was so strange was, the day my feet touched dirt in Munich and I sat down for my first meal there, I KNEW I was German!!! My goodness that was awesome! Of course, I am American and will always claim that but it was just so funny to me that I felt like I had found my deep roots in Germany. Just thought I'd babble about it.

:-)

Jon
 
Jon, next January we should start seeing a lot less genital waving from our federal government and a lot more dialog. It'll take years to undo the damage Bush has caused to our global reputation and influence, not to mention the damage to our own economy, but I can only hope it's going to happen.

Keep the faith!
 
"It's surreal reading some posts on this board which rant about my baseless hatred and unresolved psychological issues, and I wonder if the poster has ever held in his arms a living human skeleton that is 6'4" tall and weighs 93 pounds. I'd guess not."

You'd be wrong.

And it wasn't just personal for me. When I hit seventy-eight memorial services, I stopped keeping track....

It's irrelevant to the subject at hand anyway.

I've transcended my own personal losses. Almost twenty years ago, in fact. I couldn't dwell on them without becoming totally embittered and hostile to the rest of the world.

While I respect and lament those who haven't managed to harness their enduring pain into more constructive, compassionate goals, I'm not letting them dominate the world I live in or the community I am a part of. I do not receive condemnation for events that transpired 3000 years ago, 140 years ago, or even 65 years ago, and reject the idea that I can be "guilted" into allowing atrocities I had no hand in affect my clarity and judgement on approaches used in the here and now.

To understand the reluctance large numbers of the straight community have towards marriage equality, look to how many members of our own "world" treat them, with the same level of hostility and derision we once endured.

If you want to understand why members of our own community are ambivalent at best toward marriage equality "activists", examine closely the hostility and arrows the so-called "freedom from religion" crowd and the evangelical atheists have aimed inward, toward gay people of faith.

If you want to understand contempt and disgust with the methods and tactics used by marriage equality zealots, consider the negative and unanswerable attention they have drawn to the entire marriage equality movement as a whole, and examine the backlash the entire gay community is forced to put up with as a result.

If you are surprised at the amount of reluctance and concern you see, from such a large segment of a community that you'd think would benefit most from the initiatives at hand, consider the behavior or hardcore supporters of certain political candidates in the larger society, realize that it's not to put two and two together, see how manufactured outrage and intimidation can be used as a powerful political tool in the hands of such "high-information" elitists, and accept that many will reject "the means" employed outright.

Just my two cents.
 
You haven't transcended, Scott. All you've done, all you seem able to do is deny and ignore reality, and overuse the word "irrelevant" in an attempt to cram your emotions into a closet and avoid admitting the truth.

I understand you. Hell, for 25 years I *was* you. The experience I had with Chuck's death and dealing with his parents was a defining moment in my life: it's when I finally stopped being you.

But as someone else pointed out, we're guests here in Robert's living room, and I've been a bad guest. My parting shot is, start spending the time it takes to find out what the term "defense of marriage" actually means to people, especially christians, and to start peeking under that pretty, politically correct mask. You'll have no trouble at all exposing it for what it really is: very deep, very ugly and utterly "baseless hatred" and bigotry. The same emotional dishonesty, ignorance and denial you display in your posts is precisely what has allowed institutionalized gay bashing to exist for 3500 years, and is precisely what has allowed the RCC and other churches to get away with maintaining their ignorant and morally indefensible positions on the issue.
 
I'm aware of what "defense of marriage" means, Jeff.

And precisely what elements are behind it.

My main concern is, that I not be "victimized" a second time, by elements among my own, who are fast becoming what they've always hated.
 
Oxydolfan1,

Please, just drop the venom. You have many valuable contributions to make, but this continual outpouring of queenly bitchiness is just not necessary.
It may be en vogue at some sites, here we don't need it. We can communicate and exchange ideas without bashing each other. Winning the "queen bitch" award is not really an honor, you know...and I say that in full knowledge that I am just as good at Betty Davis and Joan Crawford as you are.

To be honest, and it hurts, you have some good thoughts to share.
So how about dropping the ad hominem attacks and give it a try?
 
Panthera, understand that it's not the views itself that are upsetting...I understand the frustration.

It's the way how whole groups of good people, the entire nation of America, Dr. Mengele-like experiments on half the sixteenth floor of St. Vincent's....

I'd LOVE to explain this further, but I've just been advised by the police that my father has been found dead....we have had no relationship whatsoever for decades, and the one we did have was not pleasant....I am the only living "next of kin" and I have no idea what my role, if any, is to be...so lemme just get through this day, and hopefully the next, and I'll try to be nicer when I return, okay?

My main point is that there is a serious divide in the nation right now, and a serious divide that runs, perhaps not down the middle, but still down the gay community as a result.

I have been thinking, perhaps the marriage equality is not the most important one to pursue right now, as it IS a wedge issue for a whole lot of other twitchy issues we may not even realize.
 
Thank you, P....

It WAS an impossible, dangerous situation I ran away from, and I thought I'd prepared for this eventuality, but, it still feels very surreal.

The desk sergeant isn't in yet. I hope I don't have to go down there.
 
Good News from Massachusetts

Gosh, I hope I spelled that right...never can remember if its two or three ss.
Anyway, take a look at this link. Groovy.
If the feature story has been moved before you get to it - the governor's daughter just came out of the closet.

www.baywindows.com

Bay Windows :: Serving New England’s LGBTQ+ Communities

New England's largest publication for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender readers.
www.baywindows.com www.baywindows.com
 
That's a wonderful story, for two reasons.

First of all, his affection for his daughter is clear, both from the photograph, and the article.

Secondly, as an eighteen-year-old, she is free to go about her business as she pleases, without worrying about media types following her about, popping out of bushes.
 

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