mrcleanjeans
New member
Forgive my repetative question,but they say non-phosphate powders with sodium carbonate form limestone deposits in the wash and washer,true?
Powders vs Liquids
- Thread starter pulsatron
- Start date
Help Support :
they say non-phosphate powders with sodium carbonate form li
Yes, basically true. The carbonate will form an insoluble precipitate with hard water minerals such as calcium or magnesions, and calcium carbonate is the primary component of limestone. Magnesium carbonate is a primary component of dolomite.
Sodium silicate will help protect washer parts from getting the limestone to adhere to them, so it's almost always added to non-phosphate powder formulations. It won't prevent the precipitate from depositing on laundry, though - it can look like white lint.
Yes, basically true. The carbonate will form an insoluble precipitate with hard water minerals such as calcium or magnesions, and calcium carbonate is the primary component of limestone. Magnesium carbonate is a primary component of dolomite.
Sodium silicate will help protect washer parts from getting the limestone to adhere to them, so it's almost always added to non-phosphate powder formulations. It won't prevent the precipitate from depositing on laundry, though - it can look like white lint.
Mattywashboy - suggestion
Hi Matty
I now use Euca powdered detergent. It is suitable for TL or FL. It comes in a bright yellow plastic bottle with a wide green cap. I am very happy with it.
Eucalyptus scent which I love, no scent after rinsing though which is good. Works well and doesn't foam up in the Asko.
I highly recommend it.
It can be hard to find as it is made by a small company. IGA stores sell it, and some hardware and garden places sell it as it is suitable to use wastewater on the garden. (a very "green" product.) I pay $9.00-ish for 2 kg, but it is very concentrated so you don't use much.
chris
http://www.lightningcleans.com.au/catalog/item/3180471/2717775.htm
Hi Matty
I now use Euca powdered detergent. It is suitable for TL or FL. It comes in a bright yellow plastic bottle with a wide green cap. I am very happy with it.
Eucalyptus scent which I love, no scent after rinsing though which is good. Works well and doesn't foam up in the Asko.
I highly recommend it.
It can be hard to find as it is made by a small company. IGA stores sell it, and some hardware and garden places sell it as it is suitable to use wastewater on the garden. (a very "green" product.) I pay $9.00-ish for 2 kg, but it is very concentrated so you don't use much.
chris
http://www.lightningcleans.com.au/catalog/item/3180471/2717775.htm
mrcleanjeans
New member
let it not snow
So if non-phosphate powders leave chalky limestone calcium deposits in the wash,resembling white lint,why such popularity here over the liquids which don't do that?
So if non-phosphate powders leave chalky limestone calcium deposits in the wash,resembling white lint,why such popularity here over the liquids which don't do that?
mrcleanjeans
New member
Oh Fab,I'm glad...
Who here has tried FAB liquid in the spring magic scent?It's FAB!
Who here has tried FAB liquid in the spring magic scent?It's FAB!
Liquid Surf still going well
Well folks it has been several weeks since I started using liquid Surf,and I am still really happy with it.
I was washing a load the other day when I noticed I had spots of spaghetti sauce I had spilt on my t-shirt from the previous night's dinner(messy little bugger am I),so I threw it in the load with about 4 minutes left on the wash timer and guess what it came out totally clean.
I think that is quite a good result for a mid-range type of detergent and when you consider it only cost me about $2.50Aus a bottle that is really good value for money and it leaves a really nice fragrance through the wash which seems to last for quite a while.
So I guess it is now liquids for me.
Cheers folks.
Steve.
Well folks it has been several weeks since I started using liquid Surf,and I am still really happy with it.
I was washing a load the other day when I noticed I had spots of spaghetti sauce I had spilt on my t-shirt from the previous night's dinner(messy little bugger am I),so I threw it in the load with about 4 minutes left on the wash timer and guess what it came out totally clean.
I think that is quite a good result for a mid-range type of detergent and when you consider it only cost me about $2.50Aus a bottle that is really good value for money and it leaves a really nice fragrance through the wash which seems to last for quite a while.
So I guess it is now liquids for me.
Cheers folks.
Steve.
lederstiefel1
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2006
- Messages
- 484
powder vs. liquids
Hello altogether!
The only thing I can say here is to keep in mind: liquids do not contain any bleach and most of them do not contain water-softeners at all. The amount of detergents in the mixture is therefore higher and whites tend to become dull after a longtime of treatment with liquids because of the absence of bleaching agents. And in areas where the water is rather hard they make the textiles crusted and less absorbing and can even ruin the machine, when used only! The main content of the liquids is water and water is heavy. The weight of liquids in comparison to the same amount of powders is much higher, as the wash-active substances make up only a fourth or a third of the whole amount in the bottle - the lorries transport mostly water arround the country! The filling in powders is going down more and more - here in Germany there are only few powders left (mostly cheap ones) that still contain fillings, namely sulphates, not sawdust, that is a fairy-tale! Modern compact powders contain only wash-active substances (no fillings) so they care for the environment much better than old ones!
So, that's the reason, why liquids are only good in soft-water areas and I use them only with coloured items especially blacks as they never leave a white residue on them from the water-softener as powders often do.
Ralf from Germany
Hello altogether!
The only thing I can say here is to keep in mind: liquids do not contain any bleach and most of them do not contain water-softeners at all. The amount of detergents in the mixture is therefore higher and whites tend to become dull after a longtime of treatment with liquids because of the absence of bleaching agents. And in areas where the water is rather hard they make the textiles crusted and less absorbing and can even ruin the machine, when used only! The main content of the liquids is water and water is heavy. The weight of liquids in comparison to the same amount of powders is much higher, as the wash-active substances make up only a fourth or a third of the whole amount in the bottle - the lorries transport mostly water arround the country! The filling in powders is going down more and more - here in Germany there are only few powders left (mostly cheap ones) that still contain fillings, namely sulphates, not sawdust, that is a fairy-tale! Modern compact powders contain only wash-active substances (no fillings) so they care for the environment much better than old ones!
So, that's the reason, why liquids are only good in soft-water areas and I use them only with coloured items especially blacks as they never leave a white residue on them from the water-softener as powders often do.
Ralf from Germany
mrcleanjeans
New member
I Love Liquids
I've been using liquids in hard water almost exclusively for
28 years with none of the problems mentioned.As stated earlier,washer manufacturers have harped AGAINST non-phosphate powders because they form fabric dulling tea kettle-like crust called limestone.Besides,many liquids DO soften water with sodium citrate as the common softener,and many have bleach alternative in them.
I've been using liquids in hard water almost exclusively for
28 years with none of the problems mentioned.As stated earlier,washer manufacturers have harped AGAINST non-phosphate powders because they form fabric dulling tea kettle-like crust called limestone.Besides,many liquids DO soften water with sodium citrate as the common softener,and many have bleach alternative in them.
irishwashguy
Well-known member
I have a little of both
I love the German powder Persil.It smells great, works well, has the oxy in it, and everything comes out clean.I also have the Per Wool liquid, that is the only one that I am aware of that is in the states,;it is Pink and smells great. I have also had the SA-8 Plus that only takes a table spoon in my machine and does a great job as well. i usually ad the Oxy clean that I get at Cosco with a smaller scoop for 13.99 for an enormus box of it. I love my Vernel Sunny peach softener when I use it, i have tapered off sice buying my new washer, and last but not least, Black Magic for black clothes.It has a little black dress on the label.Although, I guess that i am courious by nature( a closet Detergent Hoor) I am always opening the containers and smelling the detergents.Alot of them are really strong smelling.They would knock your socks off.
I love the German powder Persil.It smells great, works well, has the oxy in it, and everything comes out clean.I also have the Per Wool liquid, that is the only one that I am aware of that is in the states,;it is Pink and smells great. I have also had the SA-8 Plus that only takes a table spoon in my machine and does a great job as well. i usually ad the Oxy clean that I get at Cosco with a smaller scoop for 13.99 for an enormus box of it. I love my Vernel Sunny peach softener when I use it, i have tapered off sice buying my new washer, and last but not least, Black Magic for black clothes.It has a little black dress on the label.Although, I guess that i am courious by nature( a closet Detergent Hoor) I am always opening the containers and smelling the detergents.Alot of them are really strong smelling.They would knock your socks off.
lederstiefel1
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2006
- Messages
- 484
Powders vs Liquids
Hi - me again!
The thing is maybe that in the US the machines do not have a heater to heat up the wash-water. Here in Germany nearly none of the machines do have hot water inlets because 99,99999% of the washers are frontloaders with drums and tumble action. The heaters do scale up with lime-scale here in hard water areas especially around the heater elements!
I use liquid detergents as well but only ARIEL colour for my dark coloured things and also that lovely Perwoll (Per Wool in US) which, to me, is the best on the market at the moment for all delicates! Softener we don't use at all. I love PERSIL (oldest washing-powder in Germany with bleaching agent since 1907) too, but found out that ARIEL works better in cold water, as we do not have hot water taps in the cellar where my SpeedQueen is doing most of the weekly wash-job.
Detergents we use are: ARIEL for whites (in cold water)
ARIEL liquid colour for coloured items (in cold water)
PERWOLL liquid for delicates (in cold water)
OXY Clean booster for very stubborn stains on tablecloths, etc. and a self-made soap against all heavy dirt like grease and grime, containing bar-soap, soft-soap, soda, borax, ammonia and water - works perfectly!
Cheers from the other side of the big pond!
Ralf
Hi - me again!
The thing is maybe that in the US the machines do not have a heater to heat up the wash-water. Here in Germany nearly none of the machines do have hot water inlets because 99,99999% of the washers are frontloaders with drums and tumble action. The heaters do scale up with lime-scale here in hard water areas especially around the heater elements!
I use liquid detergents as well but only ARIEL colour for my dark coloured things and also that lovely Perwoll (Per Wool in US) which, to me, is the best on the market at the moment for all delicates! Softener we don't use at all. I love PERSIL (oldest washing-powder in Germany with bleaching agent since 1907) too, but found out that ARIEL works better in cold water, as we do not have hot water taps in the cellar where my SpeedQueen is doing most of the weekly wash-job.
Detergents we use are: ARIEL for whites (in cold water)
ARIEL liquid colour for coloured items (in cold water)
PERWOLL liquid for delicates (in cold water)
OXY Clean booster for very stubborn stains on tablecloths, etc. and a self-made soap against all heavy dirt like grease and grime, containing bar-soap, soft-soap, soda, borax, ammonia and water - works perfectly!
Cheers from the other side of the big pond!
Ralf
and most of them do not contain any water-softeners at all
Did some research on German liquids and I found at least three chemicals used as water softeners (builders) in "Persil Gel" as well as in "Schlecker AS" (a cheap drugstorebrand, made by a subsidary company of Reckitt Benckiser)
According to their datasheets in Persil liquid is found:
-Sodium Citrate (Salt of Citric Acid)
-Acrylic Acid Copolymer (Polycarboxylates)
-Sodium Metaborate (Borax?)
-Heptasodium DPTMP (Phosphonate)
"AS" contains:
-Citric Acid (which becomes Sodium Citrate as well in the alkaline product)
-Sodium Borate Decahydrate
-methyelenephosphonic acid (Phosphonate)
Zeolithes can only be used in powders, because they would settle down on the bottom of the bottle.
The lack of Sodium Percarbonate (a bleaching agent in powders) is tried to be substituted by certain enzymes in liquids.
The German version of Consumers Union, the Stiftung Warentest, always gives powders a better rating for cleaning ability (in general), stain removal (spot removal) as well as for enviromental benefits.
Even the oxygen bleach free "Color" versions, which are nice for euro laundry habits (higher temperatures and longer cycles) are usually rated better than their competitors of the same brand in liquid form.
The only advantage over powders is allegedly with greasy stains, because liquids contain more surfactants.
I am not a big fan of liquids myself but they certainly do contain watersofteners.
Did some research on German liquids and I found at least three chemicals used as water softeners (builders) in "Persil Gel" as well as in "Schlecker AS" (a cheap drugstorebrand, made by a subsidary company of Reckitt Benckiser)
According to their datasheets in Persil liquid is found:
-Sodium Citrate (Salt of Citric Acid)
-Acrylic Acid Copolymer (Polycarboxylates)
-Sodium Metaborate (Borax?)
-Heptasodium DPTMP (Phosphonate)
"AS" contains:
-Citric Acid (which becomes Sodium Citrate as well in the alkaline product)
-Sodium Borate Decahydrate
-methyelenephosphonic acid (Phosphonate)
Zeolithes can only be used in powders, because they would settle down on the bottom of the bottle.
The lack of Sodium Percarbonate (a bleaching agent in powders) is tried to be substituted by certain enzymes in liquids.
The German version of Consumers Union, the Stiftung Warentest, always gives powders a better rating for cleaning ability (in general), stain removal (spot removal) as well as for enviromental benefits.
Even the oxygen bleach free "Color" versions, which are nice for euro laundry habits (higher temperatures and longer cycles) are usually rated better than their competitors of the same brand in liquid form.
The only advantage over powders is allegedly with greasy stains, because liquids contain more surfactants.
I am not a big fan of liquids myself but they certainly do contain watersofteners.
irishwashguy
Well-known member
I have a Miele for my daily driver a W 1213 and a T-1403
I think that you need a heating element to get the clothes really clean.i have noticed a big difference since i started using it.
I think that you need a heating element to get the clothes really clean.i have noticed a big difference since i started using it.
launderess
Well-known member
That would depend upon what detergent one is using.Tide, Persil and many other tip shelf commercial and domestic laundry detergents clean, whiten, and in some cases disenfect at temps of 40C and even 30C.
This summer because of the insanse electric rates, have been doing much of my whites at 100F or 120F instead of 140F or 160F, using either Tide with Bleach, Persil or a commerical laundry detergent from Germany by Krussler (sp?), and have noticed no difference in cleaning performance. For that matter Tide Coldwater out cleans most other detergents by a mile, even in cold water.
Think as energy prices rise, and consumers either by choice or laws are forced to lower their energy use, we will see more laundry products that perform very well in warm to cool water. Commercial laundries, where every penny counts, have had access to these types of detergents, which helps their bottom line as it lowers energy costs/allows them to stay competitive.
As one who does quite abit of ironing, warm wather washes make my ironing day easier as hot water causes more wrinkles, creases. All dress shirts for instance, are done using my Miele's PP cycle at 100F. They come out perfectly clean and almost wrinkle free. After line drying abit, a quick ironing is all that is required.
Finally lower wash temps, speeds cycle time as one does not have to wait for cold water to reach hot or boiling temps.
This summer because of the insanse electric rates, have been doing much of my whites at 100F or 120F instead of 140F or 160F, using either Tide with Bleach, Persil or a commerical laundry detergent from Germany by Krussler (sp?), and have noticed no difference in cleaning performance. For that matter Tide Coldwater out cleans most other detergents by a mile, even in cold water.
Think as energy prices rise, and consumers either by choice or laws are forced to lower their energy use, we will see more laundry products that perform very well in warm to cool water. Commercial laundries, where every penny counts, have had access to these types of detergents, which helps their bottom line as it lowers energy costs/allows them to stay competitive.
As one who does quite abit of ironing, warm wather washes make my ironing day easier as hot water causes more wrinkles, creases. All dress shirts for instance, are done using my Miele's PP cycle at 100F. They come out perfectly clean and almost wrinkle free. After line drying abit, a quick ironing is all that is required.
Finally lower wash temps, speeds cycle time as one does not have to wait for cold water to reach hot or boiling temps.
lederstiefel1
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2006
- Messages
- 484
Liquid vs Powder
Yes, Launderess,
I do totally agree with you - and some time ago on a week-end my sister called me to complain I'm having much whiter items than her - especially t-shirts... She wanted to have my "recipe" or trick I use! I asked her what type of detergent she is using, telling me a liquid all-purpose one. (Can't remember the brand) I gave her the advise to switch to powder for whites - she did and after a while her dingy whites became totally bright again! Have to add that she is living in a very soft-water area.
The only thing I found out about liquids, and that is the reason why I use them on dark coloureds, is that they never leave any white or grey deposit on the textile as they do not contain any percipitating water-softener such as SASIL which is in all powders nowadays - phosphates are much better in this case but they are banned here in Germany for their bad behaviour in the environment.
Wishing everyone a good week - Ralf
Yes, Launderess,
I do totally agree with you - and some time ago on a week-end my sister called me to complain I'm having much whiter items than her - especially t-shirts... She wanted to have my "recipe" or trick I use! I asked her what type of detergent she is using, telling me a liquid all-purpose one. (Can't remember the brand) I gave her the advise to switch to powder for whites - she did and after a while her dingy whites became totally bright again! Have to add that she is living in a very soft-water area.
The only thing I found out about liquids, and that is the reason why I use them on dark coloureds, is that they never leave any white or grey deposit on the textile as they do not contain any percipitating water-softener such as SASIL which is in all powders nowadays - phosphates are much better in this case but they are banned here in Germany for their bad behaviour in the environment.
Wishing everyone a good week - Ralf
lederstiefel1
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2006
- Messages
- 484
Have a look at my new subject of Ariel Cold Wash Powder!
Ralf
Ralf
whirlcool
Well-known member
We also have a large variety of detergents to use.
All HE - Fresh Scent
FAB Powder
Tide with Bleach Liquid
All flavors of Persil (UK)liquids
Persil Non-Bio Powder
Downy Simple Pleasures (Vanilla/Lavender)
We only use the Tide with Bleach on the bedsheets, which are all white 100% cotton. On occasion we use the Persil Sensitive on those, but the smell is not really that good. We have to rinse a few times with the Tide, but it works great.
We use the Persil Colour Care for colors and denims and darks
Persil with Essence of Comfort for our personal whites.
Persil Non-Bio powder on the dog bedding and the furniture covers along with some Downy in the first rinse. Has anyone ever noticed that dogs love to have their bedding cleaned? As soon as theirs comes out of the dryer and installed back on their foam pads they'll stretch out on them and relax for hours!
To tell you the truth, even though we use a top loader I am impressed by how little detergent we need to get the job done.
We also have a charity event that we hold once per month and we get to clean the tablecloths. There is usually all kinds of stains on them. Last months winner was Chili, Chocolate, Wine and Mustard all on the same tablecloth. We used 50ml of Persil with the Essence of Comfort in the Cold Prewash and let the machine run thru a hot wash and every last stain came out.
But I do like the lower to no sudsing action of the powders.
All HE - Fresh Scent
FAB Powder
Tide with Bleach Liquid
All flavors of Persil (UK)liquids
Persil Non-Bio Powder
Downy Simple Pleasures (Vanilla/Lavender)
We only use the Tide with Bleach on the bedsheets, which are all white 100% cotton. On occasion we use the Persil Sensitive on those, but the smell is not really that good. We have to rinse a few times with the Tide, but it works great.
We use the Persil Colour Care for colors and denims and darks
Persil with Essence of Comfort for our personal whites.
Persil Non-Bio powder on the dog bedding and the furniture covers along with some Downy in the first rinse. Has anyone ever noticed that dogs love to have their bedding cleaned? As soon as theirs comes out of the dryer and installed back on their foam pads they'll stretch out on them and relax for hours!
To tell you the truth, even though we use a top loader I am impressed by how little detergent we need to get the job done.
We also have a charity event that we hold once per month and we get to clean the tablecloths. There is usually all kinds of stains on them. Last months winner was Chili, Chocolate, Wine and Mustard all on the same tablecloth. We used 50ml of Persil with the Essence of Comfort in the Cold Prewash and let the machine run thru a hot wash and every last stain came out.
But I do like the lower to no sudsing action of the powders.
zanussi_lover
Well-known member
Powders vs liquids
I use Ariel Colour and Style Powder for everything, as i like the smell and i wear alot of coloured clothes and amazingly it works well on whites too!! Surf is excellent on the whites, i love the tropical surf the most, Ariel biological i'm not that keen on cause it has horrible smell, i prefered the old version, before they changed the packaging, even if you use loads of sweet smelling conditioner you can't cover up the scent
this is the powder,
Kyle x
P.s it was my birthday a few days ago, I am 18 now!!
I use Ariel Colour and Style Powder for everything, as i like the smell and i wear alot of coloured clothes and amazingly it works well on whites too!! Surf is excellent on the whites, i love the tropical surf the most, Ariel biological i'm not that keen on cause it has horrible smell, i prefered the old version, before they changed the packaging, even if you use loads of sweet smelling conditioner you can't cover up the scent
this is the powder, Kyle x
P.s it was my birthday a few days ago, I am 18 now!!
Similar threads
