Premature Sudsulation

[lovestowash]

Greetings! A few months back, I bought a Maytag MDB4949 dishwasher, to replace a Frigidaire. I chose this model for the self-cleaning filter feature. I have a water softener, and couldn't use the Cascade Platinum pacs in the Frigidaire due to foam. Still have the container of Cascade, and have been using them in the Maytag. 5 minutes after starting the cycle, I opened the washer to add a mug, and suds galore. Although it was closed, I popped open the dispenser to find the pac partially dissolved, and full of water. Is this common for Maytag? I've already swapped the machine out once, as the first one had a noisy pump. It's not a big deal, just curious if anyone else has had this experience.
George

 

[easy]

Maytag dishwasher

I have the same dishwasher and have been using it for about a month. I have been using Finish Powerball without any problems. I live in Boston and the water is considered to be fairly soft.

I have never been in a house with a water softener - could that be your problem?
Can you adjust it so the water is not quite so soft?

I've never had a dishwasher that has cleaned 100% of the load without problems like this one does. I too bought it for the self cleaning filter because I don't pre rinse.

The dishwasher cycles are much longer than my previous Maytag but I think that is the new normal. I do wish the upper rack was deeper but I have only one or two items that don't fit.

David

 

[frigilux]

David- I've lived with in-house water softeners all my life and have never seen one that allows for adjustment in the softness of the water--and it is most certainly always super-soft coming out of the spigot. 

I used Cascade Platinum pacs for awhile back at the house with LG and GE dishwashers and don't recall a sudsing issue. I don't know that I was using pacs/pods with the 2004 Maytag that preceded the LG--or even if pacs were available back then. 

Having said that, many people--even some here--report sudsing issues with Cascade pacs in softened water. You'd think that Cascade of all brands would include a suds inhibitor, but apparently not.

 

[lovestowash]

leaky dispenser

Thanks for the replies, I'll get some Finish tabs today. What surprised me was how the dispenser, which seems to have a tight seal, was filled with water and the subsequent dissolved pac before it opened in the wash cycle.

 

[petek]

When we had a water softener you adjusted the time between regenerations on the timer dial. Not sure how the new automatic sensing ones would be adjusted.

 

[lovestowash]

surprise surprise

I checked the dispenser with a mirror and flashlight. Even though the closing mimics a tight seal, there are openings on both sides of the dispenser allowing water to come in, go out. This design seems counter-productive.

 

[combo52]

New MDB4949 Maytag DW

Hi George and a big congratulations on your new DW

 

It is wonderful to have nice soft water for a DW, But these new premium DW tablets with their built in wetting agent can easily cause too much foaming in soft water, but this is again the great thing about soft water, you can use much cheaper liquid and powered detergents and still get great results, and you probably should not use rinse aid at all or at least set to the bare minimum level.

 

The tiny holes in the DD are designed to allow a little detergent to get out in the earlier parts of the cycle to improve performance, since most users are only using one tablet now a days, If you decide to skip the tablets use a little detergent in both cups but probably one TS max.

 

 

John L.

 

[lovestowash]

Thanks John...

I appreciate your input. But I suspect with this Maytag, the detergent will have dissolved in the initial wash/rinse. It just doesn't make sense to me. Are other dishwashers designed in a similar fashion? BTW, I chose the Maytag based on your recommendations. No second thoughts, no regrets...just puzzled.

 

[rolls_rapide]

My 2004 Bosch has a detergent dispenser with rubber seals only on three sides. The top edge is unsealed.

I think the idea is to allow water in to pre-dissolve/pre activate the detergent. Particularly - I suppose - when using the hard pressed tablets.

With my machine, the instructions say to add a little extra detergent to the lower door of the dishwasher for the intensive wash.

 

[dustin92]

I haven't noticed our detergent dissolving before the cup opens, but Cascade platinum pods foam up in our Bosch on unsoftened city water, and in the Kitchenaid kdc-21 of the guy I take care of, same water supply, but highly softened... Clean excellent in both machines though, and seem to rinse away well. I have noticed suds in the prewashes on the Kitchenaid, so I assume that cup doesn't seal well. I have to say Cascade pods (all flavors) seem to foam up in any dishwasher I've used them in. The builder grade GE we had at our old house would literally spew suds out below the door at the sight of a cascade pod (soft well water) so we didn't use them in that machine! Otherwise the best detergent I've used, and use daily.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Sudsing

I looked at a few of the online detergent ingredients for various Finish types (Reckitt-Benckiser), Clean n Fresh (Robert McBride), and Fairy (P&G).

'Finish' generally - whether hard pressed tablet or gel-pac pod - has sodium silicate and some type of "antifoam", as one formulation stated.

'Clean n Fresh' has silicates, but no apparent defoamer.

'Fairy' has no silicates that I can see. I cannot see any defoamer either.

 

[foraloysius]

Fairy is called Dreft overhere in the Netherlands. I've tried their tablets in my Miele dishwasher. They sudsed up so much that it sounded like the dishwasher was struggling. It finished the cycle without a problem, but I didn't like that sound at all, so that was the end of it. I never had such an experience with any other dishwasher product. I'm avoiding Dreft now like the plague! lol

 

[DADoES]

 
Cascade Platinum pods cause so much sudsing (on untreated well water) that the spray force is reduced, arm rotation is slowed (bogged-down in suds), and the machine may add more water to compensate (it senses the fill level per the current draw on the pump motor).  I haven't tried any others.

 

[rolls_rapide]

My experiences with Fairy (Dreft, Cascade) are similar - excess froth. The machine runs slowly, spray arms barely turn, and it attempts to top up with water again and again.

And you can forget even trying to load an item after the suds-fest has started. To do so puts the machine into a suds-lock condition, the motor barely turns, then stops. The only way to get it back to normal is to drain the machine, attempt to do a few rinse & holds, and start again.

I'm surprised that any manufacturer recommends P&G's detergents.

 

[ozzie908]

Oversudsing

In a dishwasher throw in a handful of salt that will kill the suds, and with luck all will resume as per normal...

 

[rolls_rapide]

Do the vintage machines (the water hogs and the propeller type) cope any better with P&G's pods?

 

[ozzie908]

I have a Miele DW

Which foams with fairy pods I have tried the expensive finish ones and that does the same so I am assuming Miele want me to buy their own tabs? Not likely at that price.

I have some Magnum pods to try see if they are any better or not.

Austin

 

[rolls_rapide]

I've tried Aldi's Magnum pods before. I didn't care for the fragrance. Their All-in-1 hard tablets seemed to foam up too.

Generally, I've found Lidl's W5 All-in-1 to be better, and the basic/classic W5 tablets seem to be immune to foaming. As are McBride's 'Clean n Fresh'.

Have Persil dishwasher tablets been taken off the market? Neither Unilever nor McBride (the licensee) have a website/link any longer.

 

[sudsmaster]

I've had very good results with Finish tabs in my Bosch DW. The water here is relatively soft, about 4 grains. For really dirty/full loads, sometimes I'll put an extra tab in the open silverware caddy. But not necessary for normal loads.

I recall using some Kirkland gel-packs a few years ago. They left the DW interior coated with precipitate. Not good.

 

[combo52]

Excess Suds In DWs

We have noticed this problem as well with Cascade Platinum tablets, they foam a lot in my 1987 WP PC DWs, the DW still works great and does not leak but I think it would work better without suds.

 

Our water is around 7 grains hardness.

 

My friend Tom Turbomatic suggested adding a simethicone [ 80 mg ] tablet with works great, but I do believe that P&G needs to get their act together.

 

John L.

 

[petek]

I've never experienced any excess sudsing in our dishwasher and I've used different Cascade tabs, Finish tabs of one type and another and Kirklands too.

Our city water comes straight out of Lake Huron as does Detroits, and Flints. I don't know what the hardness level is. But pretty much any city or town within 60 miles of any Great Lake should have the same water.. Interesting to see what others in the Great Lakes Basin have to say on it.

 

[easy]

Maytag dispenser

As I said earlier, I have been using Finish Powerball tabs with great results. I didn't know the dispenser allowed some water in during the initial pre rinse.

I have been in the kitchen when the dispenser opens for the main wash. I've heard the hard tab hit the bottom of the tub so I guess not much of it had been already dissolved. I think this is probably more of an issue with the Cascade pods since they are soft to begin with.

David

 

[lovestowash]

Finish

David, that's good to know, and makes sense. I bought the Powerballs and will try them tonight. When I opened the machine after about 5 minutes using Cascade, still in the pre-rinse, there were suds, and I opened the dispenser. The pod had essentially dissolved, so I suspect in the main wash, the dispenser opens, and presents nothing but water.

 

[lovestowash]

update

Running the Maytag on the "Auto" cycle, "High Temp" option, with a Powerball...no suds, and the initial rinse lasted 8-10 minutes...drained, then filled for the main wash...
heard the dispenser open, and the Powerball dropped (opened to ensure)...main wash lasted 5-6 minutes, less than the initial rinse...cycle is continuing on the "Auto" with "High Temp" option...
interesting that each rinse is longer than the main wash...oh well, at least no suds...

 

[easy]

Maytag dishwasher

"Auto wash" with the "High Temp" option is the same cycle I've used for every load.
Everything perfectly clean. I don't know if the longer rinse times are due to water heating. Compared to all my previous dishwashers, this one seems to take an absurd amount of time to complete a cycle but I've read that all new dishwashers take much longer due to the extremely low water usage.

I'll get used to the time it takes. It's not as if I'm standing in front of the machine yelling HURRY UP!

 

[askolover]

With my 1994 KUDI23 I have aborted using tabs or pods due to foaming with our softened water.  The hard Finish powerball tabs get used occasionally with crystal and work ok but I prefer chlorine based detergents since my DW was designed to work with them at the time it was built.  I use premiere powder or Palmolive eco gel...zero foam!

 

[rolls_rapide]

"but I do believe that P&G needs to get their act together."

Quite. I can't understand their thinking either. I often wonder whether the liquid portions of their pods contain bog-standard manual washing-up liquid? There's something in them which foams. And it doesn't matter how dirty the load is - it still suds up.