question for the rollermatic experts please!

[rollermatic]

working on a 1967 non rapidry rollermatic, the red machine i call it. put tub back in today (very carefully) and took it for a spin to see if the spin clutch assembly is working properly.

this one has no capacitor on the motor like my 1965 model so i assume motor will come up to full speed at once and tub will gain rotation speed via clutch inside the spin wheel.

well it's not coming up to full speed, spin wheel is at full speed and there is no slippage on the rollers i can see, the problem must be in the clutch.

the 1965 tech talk manual talks of adjustment screws, i assume this 67 model has them too.

is it easy to do? should i pull tub again and flip it all the way over and remove bottom snubber brace or can i simply lay it on it's side and insert a board to keep inner tub positioned to prevent possible damage to mechanism support and work on it that way?

i can pull tub out easily enough if that's the best way, have not put bellows on yet.

is there any other advise on this clutch assembly? i have never torn into one yet. can the clutch linings be repaired in any way? replaced?

one of my other machines is a 1966 model non rapidry and i already have tub out. maybe i should flip it over and experiment on it's clutch assembly a bit to learn about it.

any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

 

[joelippard]

Hey Pete,

Seems like to me it would be the clutch, but I don't know the first thing about them. It will be interesting to see what others who know more have to say.

 

[saltysam]

is there any other advise on this clutch assembly?

Pete here is a picture of the clutch assembly. This one is a '65 but they are pretty much the same up to '68 or '69. The adjustment the Tech manual is talking about is the 3 screws on the outer edge. All 3 screws can be tightened to increase the tension on the clutch spring. Keep in mind though that all 3 screws need to be torqued down to the same tightness or you could get some "jerking action" when the machine tries to spin. Try taking up on the screws maybe a 1/4 turn at a time then put it into a spin and see if it gets up to speed. It will probably be trial and error until you get the correct torque on the screws. You should be able to access the screws without taking the tub out, it might be a bit ackward getting to the screws...Brace the tub and mechanism with 2x4's or what ever you have to keep it centered. then lay the machine over on its side. The mechanism needs to be supported or else you risk ripping the mechanism support boot. Another thing to keep in mind is the clutch adjustment will need to be tight enough that when you put a load of clothes and water in the machine the clutch will be able to carry the weight.
Hope this helps.
Mark

 

[rollermatic]

thanks, that helps

tremendously!

i did pull the tub back out as it was very quick and easy to do. i will flip machine on it's side and tighten them equally and put tub in and try again.

i assume to increase clutch tension i turn them clockwise?

thanks again

 

[rollermatic]

okay i pulled the tub

flipped the machine over and took off the bottom brace. i took out the 3 screws and decided to have a look inside this clutch assembly.

i found a spring that pushes down on the clutch lining. the clutch lining had some oil on it as well as dirt. i lifted all parts up and began a 1/2 hour of cleaning with rubbing alcohol.

got a lot of dirt and oil off the lining and mating surface. gonna let it air dry overnite and put it back together tomorrow and flip it over and reinstall tub and give it a whirl.

hopefully this will do it!

i did not see how the 3 screws i took out could serve as an adjustment. they seem to simply screw in tight, holding the bottom half of the spin wheel to the top half, the clutch being inside these two halves ofcourse.

hopefully cleaning it all up will do the trick.

 

[rollermatic]

close up shows

both clutch lining and steel mating surface in good detail.

both surfaces are clean and dry now. i even rubbed sandpaper on the clutch lining surface to help remove dirt and oil. it did help as when i rinsed it with alcohol a lot more dirt came off.

i might not know what i;'m doing here but it sounds good i theory. a clean dry surface free of oil and dirt will make for a better clutch. we shall see tomorrow!

 

[rollermatic]

no luck

put it back and tried it out, tub will not come up to speed.

gonna e mail dave from dave's repair and mark michaels to see what kind of clutch parts are out there. hopefully i can find a new lining or something, or some good advice.

gonna pull tub again and flip it over and start again. i'm not giving up here! these rollermatics can be a challenge but i am determined to get them running well again if it takes the rest of my life!

 

[saltysam]

put it back and tried it out, tub will not come up to speed.

Pete,
From what what the pictures shows it appears that someone has oiled that mechanism at some point, that's why the clutch lining has oil on it. Roller-matic mechanisms weren't designed to be oiled. The bronze bushings used were "oil impregnated" which when they warmed up they would "sweat" out a small amount of oil just enough to lubricate the shaft.

It would probably be a good idea to take the lower part of the mechanism apart and "de-grease" it. (just a suggestion)

The clutch assembly has 2 clutch disks in it. The first one is easily accessed when you took the 3 screws out. See picture.

 

[saltysam]

Second

The second clutch disk is under the clutch plate that separated the 2 disks. (see picture) It is held in place by the bronze bushing in the clutch/brake housing. The only way to get the 2nd clutch disk out is to "carefully" drive the bronze bushing out of the center of the housing. If this clutch disk has oil on it too you will still get slipping when the tub tries to spin. If I had a spare clutch disk I would glady send it to you but this is the only one I have. Maybe one of the members would have an old assembly they could part with.

Keep in mind the picture is of a clutch/brake assembly from a '65-'66 machine and yours might be a little different.

Hope this helps.
Mark

 

[rollermatic]

thanks a lot!

that helps!

what i plan to do is remove the agitator shaft coupler so i can move the agitate arm out of the way and get to the clutch. i will "carefully" remove the clutch and spin wheel assembly.

now my question for you or anyone else. what can i use to clean up and degrease the clutch linings? alcohol? should i soak them in something for awhile?

i put in on hold for the rest of the day and just finished putting my tub back in my 65 rapidry custom imperial and it does come up to full speed and goes into rapidry perfectly so at least i got something done today.

gonna work on the red machine that has the clutch problem a little each day, taking my time, not screwing it up. any other info will be appreciated and those pics you sent were very helpful. didn't know there were two clutch linings.

i also sent e mails to dave and mark to see if they have any parts around. this machine will run again, i have faith in it!

thanks

 

[saltysam]

what can i use to clean up and degrease the clutch linings?

Pete,
I don't know if it would be possible to "degrease" the linings. If you do try I wouldn't use any kind of petroleum based cleaner on it.
If it were me I might try brake cleaner or acetone. It would break down the grease and possibly allow you to get it out of the clutch material. Both chemicals dry fast and don't leave an oily residue.
The material used in this application for the clutch and brake linings is not like the material used in auto brake pads or auto clutch disks, they are similar but not exactly the same. This material appears to be more porous which would allow it to absorb oil and grease better.
Give the brake cleaner or acetone a try, it's not going to hurt them for sure. If it works great, if you can't get all the grease out of the lining then you can keep searching for replacements.
You might also do a search on the internet to see if there is brake material available in sheets that you could make a pattern out of your lining and cut the material to fit in the clutch/brake housing. Just a thought!

I definitely don't have all the answers but will help where ever I can.
Mark

 

[saltysam]

forgot to mention something

Pete
When you get to the point of re-assembling the clutch the bronze bushing must be put back into the same position that it came out. I learned this the hard way when I rebuilt my Roller-Matic. I put everything back together and the brake wouldn't work. I took it apart 3 times but couldn't figure out why the brake wasn't engaging once the spin cycle stopped.
What I found was that the bronze bushing that held the upper clutch lining in place was pressed too far into the housing which didn't allow the brake to engage.
The picture attached is of the brake assembly. you will notice that the bronze bushing is completely flush with the top of the hub. If this isn't flush it will not allow the brake to engage and the tub will take forever to quit spinning.
mark

 

[rollermatic]

thank you thank you!!!

great ideas you have!!! brake cleaner, why not!!!!! i'll try it.

speaking of brakes the 65 custom deluxe (non rapidry) i have that is fully operational and i use frequently runs great but no brake action.

the 1965 custom imperial rapidry that i'm putting back together tonite and goes into rapidry spin perfectly and pulsates perfectly also has no brake action.

the 1967 red machine that has the clutch problem also has no brake action.

and the 1966 green machine that i haven't even begun to restore (non rapidry) spins great and pulsates great but no brake.
i have yet to see a rollermatic where the brake works! is it really that important, outside of throwing rinse water when it should be filling? it doesn't hurt the spin roller to have the tub coasting to a stop does it?

thanks again, will keep you posted and am going to post pics of the 1965 cistom imperial soon. just got the oil bellows on without a hitch as well as it's clamp. now working on the water bellows!

thanks

 

[joelippard]

Pete,

I too have never seen the brake work very aggressively on any of my solid tub rollermatics, even back in the day mom's old one didn't stop very fast -- the 1-18's a different story though

 

[swestoyz]

Pete - the clutches changed mid year in 66 to the Sure Spin clutch (vs. the Impact clutch from 64 to early 66). The clutch assembly PN you would need, if you were to replace the whole assembly, would be 6597925.

Ben

 

[saltysam]

brakes, is it really that important

wow, i haven't had a problem with my '65. The tub comes to a complete stop within 10-15 seconds after the spin cycle is complete. On the late '64 to '66 machines a lot of the brake action was due to how tight the nut was that holds that whole assembly onto the spin/agitate shaft.
Another thing the brake is used for is to keep the tub from spinning during agitation. Since the tub spins clockwise when you try to turn the tub counter clockwise it should lock up. This is due to the motor reversing for agitation.

I believe there is a section in the Tech manual that gives the correct torques for the nut and the screws on the clutch assembly.

Joe is correct the tub brakes back then weren't nearly as aggressive as they are today, due to safety concerns of people sticking their hands in there before the tub quit spinning and twisted their arm almost off. Kind of like the brake they put on lawn mowers where the blade has to stop spinning within a certain time frame.

Hey Ben! I've got the beer ready whenever you're ready to head down this way.
Mark

 

[rickr]

I might have a clutch assembly for that machine Pete. Give me a day or so, and I will check.

 

[rollermatic]

thanks

joel, i never thought rollermatics even had a brake on them till recently since i've never seen one work. i kinda like mine beter without the brake. when it starts to fill for rinse the tub is spinning so faast it throws a lot of water up and over, fun to watch at least!

swestoyz, thanks for the info. i assume that's why my 65 custom deluxe has a capacitor start due that the motor takes a good 20 seconds or more to get out of start winding mode as the motor and tub seem to be directly coupled with no clutch action. my red machine and my custom imperial are different in that motor starts up at full speed right away and tub picks up speed gradually. in the case of the red machine too gradually. i notice that the only machines that have the capacitor on the motor are my 1965 machines.

saltysam, you must have the only rollermatic with a working brake!

rickr, thanks so much, i will gladly pay you for it and shipping ofcourse if you do have one that you don't mind parting with.

the red machine is on hold for now, been working on the 65 rapidry a bit. oil bellows and water bellows are in but can't get the water bellows clamp on. gonna try a screw worm clamp like has been suggested here. or i can always break down and buy a pair of mark michaels bellows pliers for 35 bucks.

this machine seems to work great, rapidry spin is really fun to watch. i have not seen a frigidaire in rapidry spin up close since i was a teen with my aunt's!

here's the motor/transmission all cleaned up and back in place. took me forever to figure out how those 2 springs on the high speed roller clutch assembly go in! the tech manual had a good pic and i finally got it right yesterday.

 

[rollermatic]

here it is

with it's broken top console which i still have a lot more work to do on.

it looks lopsided in this pic due that it is merely sitting on top of the machine, not in correct position.