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Up until the early 20th century, marriage was a financial arrangement (usually pre-arranged by the parents) for zillions of years to maintain family wealth, property rights and power. "Love" didnt really have much to do with it. The catholic church didn't want their priests to get married so they didn't have to share his possessions with wives or heirs, even though priests and gays had been married/blessed in ceremonies in the early church. All "marriages' should be "legal unions" for gay or straights so everyone is entitled to the same CIVIL rights - like the 1000 benefits (yes there are 1000 that can be documented) that straight people have by being married, and take for granted, but are impossible to re-create in a will or other single legal document at any price. If a religion wants to ban people from participating in their particular ceremony, then fine. But the government should stick to legal issues.
Sheesh
SteveD (recovering catholic)
 
and oh

"A threat to moral society"...... Didn't happen to catch the divorce statistics lately? Or the number of married "str8" men cruising on Cragislist or Gay.com for anomomyous partners?? "I'm not gay, my boyfriend is"? Apparently that doesn't count......
Yikes!
 
Learning

Gansky,I'm glad you pointed out that this has been,by and large,a friendly and open minded discussion.I think that speaks well of us a group.I realize some may think this is not the place for such a topic,but I think it allows us to get to know each other better..
Tom
 
Almost won?? Really Don... It wasn't even close! What history book are you reading <br
And so what if me and my boyfriend make some rednecks sick? Why should we be denied our rights, just because someone three houses, or three states away does not like it? It's just too bad for them. We really don't care <br
About gays threating straight peoples marriages? Oh thats the best one yet Don! With all due respect, I think the straights have been doing a lot of damage to the marriage for many years, without any help from gay people. I mean what is YOUR divorce rate now? Like 70% the last I heard.
I think the gay community just might have a few pointers for you straights on sucessful relationships Don. We will keep you guys in mind, once we have gay marriage available for everyone in all fifty states <br
remember.... Equal rights for al <br
 
Wow the drama continues doesn't it. Let's continue to have an intelligent conversation and be nice please <br
<i>No church has the right to discriminate against anyone.</i
Hi Rick, actually while we agree on 99%, this is one point that I do disagree. A church is nothing more than a private club, and it should have every right to discriminate and keep out anyone who it does not agree with as long as it is in no way connected to anything to do with the public or the government. I don't agree with churches having a tax free status, they are no different than anyone else and should pay their fair share <br
<i>The fiasco in Alabama (I believe) about the Ten Commandments statue being taken away from a courthouse REALLY got my blood boiling. </i
Austin, I'm curious why is it necessary to have the Ten Commandments being displayed at the Alabama Supreme Court? Does it help in some way, you must think it does some good, I'm just wondering what that is? I would like to understand your point of view since it is completely foreign to me <br
<i>I believe in the live and let live philosophy.But you guys have got to look at gay marriage from a straight mans point of view,it makes them sick </i
Don getting a legal will does not give Neal and I the same protections that you and wife receive from both the state and the country. All we want is the same protections for our family that you have, nothing more. <br
Now don't get me started on this north/south thing, now for my truck, see my "Proud to Live in a Blue State Sticker", that's my "rebel flag", YAY for the North, bring on the snow! ;) - Sorry as a proud true Blue Northerner I couldn't resist :) LOL
 
Hi Robert, perhaps I was not clear in my what I said. Am fall cleaning the upstairs while posting <br
What I mean is no church should be able to keep anyone from getting married. In their church yes, of course. However not by a J.P. or by any other way <br
In other words, I do not think it is any business of any church, if I choose to marry another man. Although they can say what they may, they should not have any say so in the matter <br
BTW: I really am trying to be nice. <:
 
Ahh Rick I see what you meant, and yes we are in 100% total agreement. A church or club has no right to tell anyone who they can or cannot marry, or to tell anyone what they can or cannot do for that matter unless we are a member of that specific organization. I have absolutely no desire and neither does Neal to have any church recognize our marriage, we couldn't care less, when it comes down to it we simply need the legal protections that come with civil marriage.
 
The Supreme Court held that the Ten Commandments can be displayed in the context of our Judeo-Christian tradition. For instance, how they are portrayed in the United States Supreme Court building - as part of our rich legal heritage. <br
But when displayed as a specific endorsement of Christianity (or used for tacky political grandstanding, masqueraded as defense of Christianity, as Judge Moore did) that's not appropriate. <br
What's funny about the Ten Commandment memorials is that a good deal of them date from the 50's, when the movie studio that produced "The Ten Commandments" donated them to towns across the country as publicity for the movie. Prior to that time, people had gotten along just fine without them. <br
As far as the ACLU goes, they have a strong conservative tradition as well. Once you get to know about them - as opposed to listening to the likes of O'Reilly, who just use them as a lazy talking point - you learn that just about every group in this country, including Christians, have turned to the ACLU for assistance. Supreme Court Justice Anton Scalia - hardly a flower-weaving hippie - is a member of the ACLU. <br
Sorry if I'm a bit sarcastic here, but I don't speak disrespectfully about people's beliefs - especially when I know nothing about them - so it's hard for me to take such sweeping statements seriously <br
If you don't know your history, you're bound to become a victim of it.
 
Robert well said

we are not interested in holding hands at the salad bar in shoneys LOL, we are interested in Family plan health insurance, filing joint taxes(it if works out to our advantage), no bull shit with car trade ins, i drive less and drive the new one, we trade in the older that takes a beating to my partners job many miles. this process is like selling a car or truck to a stranger, greatly simplified if the auto just belonged to mr and mr. as a family plan. plus you lose your tax credit for the car you are trading in if you are putting it in your significant others name, different title names, family car insurance. there is no big shame in having an open alternate lifestyle. but lawd sometimes its damned inconvenient. alr2903. i will do my best and VOTE my conscience.
 
For the time being, anyway, as long as one so-called moderate conservative can still vote for these modern-day Nazis next week and do so with a clear conscience, we should NOT be aiming for reconciliation, forgiveness, and oneness with them, for they know precisely what the agendas are <br
They know what they believe; they are simply way too cowardly to come out and assert themselves. But that doesn't mean they'd all be donning the white hoods of their hearts if push came to shove <br
There are ALREADY large-scale voting irregularities in early voting in Florida. They are becoming more and more brazen in their actions, and one should take care to remember that everything Adolf Hitler did to consolidate power was totally legal <br
There's a little something for everyone here. The USS Eisenhower is docked in the Straits of Hormuz, just waiting. The Port of Newark, for one, has been turned over to foreign interests. Next week's Jerusalem Pride parade has the potential to become a bloodbath, the likes of which we have never seen (possibly the New Orleans bar fire of the early '70s comes close). At year end, our "reformed" bankruptcy laws promise to put this country at the brink of financial collapse <br
And I don't think I've ever heard of a government that advocated abstinence for unmarrieds until age 29 <br
The only way we can guarantee the true will of the people on Election Day is for the Democrats to trounce the theocrats by a such a wide margin, that even Diebold hacking and voter intimidation efforts will be nullified <br
Please speak to your exit pollers on the way out-exit polls are a good indicator of how people actually vote, and may be needed to challenge obviously skewed voting results <br
Really, it's our lives that are on the line.
 
very funny rickr, I read the real history books and I drive a pickup,and if you come down here trying to make someone sick you will probably get your butt kicked by one of those rednecks.I am a tolerant type redneck, you and your boyfriend can do wahat you want in front of me because I have seen some nasty crap in my day and nothing much bothers me. You are trying to insult me by saying redneck, but I take it as acompliment,but there are those who would see it as a real dirty word and be upset just like f-word or n-word hurts other people. But thats not me. I hope that gays will be able to marry and get all the rights that they are looking for. rickr, I bet you are one of those people who thinks the civil war was fought over slavery. If you are,Ill send you a copy of my history book. Don
 
I fear Scotty is right...

I just re-read this thread. With very few exceptions - me when my dander is up being one - we all seem to be arguing about the oldest problem of any democracy. The premise of a democracy is, in a fair election, those who get the most votes win. Majority rule
To a large extent because of the enormous differences among the thirteen founding states, the United States has always sought to balance this majority rule with a degree of respect and protection for the minority(-ies)who lose the election
If Lincoln had not been assassinated, the former Confederacy would not have been subject to the humiliations which have led to problems right to this very day (the federal response to Kathrina comes to mind). Lincoln wanted to reforge the ties and bonds between the Rebels and the Yankees...not out of any particular devotion or love for Dixie...but because he understood the meaning of "e pluribus unum.&quot
The current republican government no longer believes in this principle - and that is what is making so many liberals and traditional conservatives angry
This group of republicans believes in "might makes right". Neither a traditional American perspective nor yet a particularly Christian
(Oh, rusty as my Latin is: "out of many, one").
 
The government legislating open discrimination against a group of TAX PAYING AMERICAN CITIZENS, sends a clear message: It is nothing more than a form of legislated APARTHIED
Gay's should NOT be a political issue at all.EVER <br
Years ago the same group of religious fundamentalists managed to get legislation passed that banned the legal sales of alcholoic beverages. That really bombed. Too many generations have now passed since Prohibition---so hardly anyone remembers how it affected the country. For the first time in American history one single piece of legislation created an atmosphere where every agency of local and federal government coud be corrupted right on up to the President, who had cases of illegal liquor sent to the Whitehouse for all the politcians to party with. The Mafia went from simple gangs of local thugs to a Multi-Million dollar organization of crime that criss-crossed the country and came to control many local governments. It got really bad for a while. And it taught at least a few generations that legislating morality could backfire in a very bad way <br
Since the divorce rate amongst the Heterosexual population of the U.S. is now over 60 percent, one would soon expect the fundamentalists to want legislation that bans Heterosexuals from marrying more than once
I wonder what they would think of that <br
My point is---the GOVERNMENT should NEVER be in the business of LEGISTATING DISCRIMINATION against any group of TAX PAYING AMERICAN CITIZENS!!!!!!!!!! Be they Gay, Straight, sideways, green , purple, whatever <br
I will also point out that patriotism has never been an issue amongst the Gay population

From the beginnings of U.S. history, Gays have proudly served their country in all ranks of military. There are plenty of highly decorated Gay American Veterans
And Arlington cemetery is peppered with dead GAYs who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country
I know, because I have personally seen many of them buried there. I've also seen plenty of them buried in local veterans cemeteries as well
SHAME on the BUSH administration for creating a situation that sends a message to Americans that it is o.k. to openly discriminate against them. IT IS AN OUTRAGE <br
Oh, and by the way, current statistics show that the VAST MAJORITY of the dead American soldiers being returned from Iraq are/were DEMOCRATS! What a concept. (The idea that somehow patriotism=Republican is laughable.
The current administration pays little lip service to the (Democratic) families of those soldiers, as they do not make very good news spots on the evening news. Go 'figya. Pathetic <br
IMO if more people lived by the Ten Commandments the world would be a MUCH better place
We wouldn't hardly need the police department. Imagine the tax money we could save <br
Now, can you imagine that the current administration has nothing better to use as a campaign platform that a botched joke by John Kerry----who isn't even running for any kind of office <br
Oh, and by the way, Kerry also just happens to be a HIGHLY decorated American Veteran
Ooops---how quickly the Republican propagandists forget
I guess that is because Georgie managed to get his father to help him "cut and run" from his military service.
 
General Wesley Clark

We Owe it to Our Troops to Return to the Real Issue of the Election <br
The American public should simply accept no distractions. In our democracy, it is our duty to hold our elected leaders accountable. We do it at the ballot box. And we should do it not on the basis of personalities or stereotypes, but on the basis of results. Our men and women fighting in Iraq are held accountable for their performance and their conduct
On duty and off, twenty-four hours a day. They're fighting for us, for our safety, our rights, and our freedoms. Surely, we owe it to them to push aside the distractions and bring the focus back to the essence of this election <br
Iraq <br
In my short time in politics, I have learned many new clichés. One of them surely is that quote, "This is a critical election." In this case, it is dramatically true. The incumbent administration seemingly can not, or will not, make hard choices about the most important issue ever to face government officials: war and peace. The only hope for a national change of course is a Congress far more willing to play it's constitutionally required role of counter balance to a misguided executive. If citizens allow this great debate to be derailed by a momentary fracas over a mistake in a speech (by a man who has actually served in combat and does support the troops), we will have tragically missed a rare opportunity <br
John Kerry made a mistake trying to joke about "getting stuck in Iraq." But this election isn't about John Kerry; he isn't running. But, for a crazy day or two, his gaffe has provided a powerful distraction to an election shaping up to be a referendum on the President's national security policy, and his mission in Iraq, in particular. We can not allow the most powerful country in the world to get sidetracked when American lives and the future of our leadership in the world is at stake <br
When NATO attacked Yugoslavia to halt ethnic cleansing in 1999, a US reporter warned, 'let us do a feature article on you - the public only gets personalities, they don't get issues like this.'. It was a lesson I painfully relearned in my own Presidential campaign. So, I suppose it's to be expected that Senator Kerry's remarks - and John himself - would become the focal point of relief for a campaign that has been hard fought, and bitterly partisan <br
But with just a few days to go, it's time to return to the real issue of the campaign: Iraq. It was a war of choice, a war that has defined the Bush Presidency, and captured the almost unanimous support of the Republican-led Congress. For three long years after US troops occupied Baghdad, and as the country spiraled deeper into chaos and violence, loyalty to the President and his party demanded many members of Congress to follow his motto: "Stay the course". There have hardly been any Congressional hearings on the course of the war, but those that have been held have been firmly controlled. National security seemed to require that the Congress forfeit its independent oversight role. Critics were often demonized, public accountability minimized and policy alternatives were rejected <br
But by early September and through October, a combination of leaked intelligence and briefing documents and mounting American casualties has kept Iraq front and center in the minds of voters. Neither a record fall in gasoline prices at the pump nor a record rise in the DOW Industrials index seemed significant enough to distract the eye of the electorate. Even the spectacle of a Republican Congressman soliciting underage Congressional pages vanished quickly from the airwaves., to be replaced by reports of daily American casualties in Iraq, and a leaked preview of the dismal policy alternatives to be submitted by James Baker's bipartisan Iraq Study Group <br
Polls show a distinct and steady decline in public support for the war effort, and, more ominously, increasingly the American public has begun to doubt that the invasion of Iraq is in any way connected to winning the war on terror. Sitting Congressmen began to distance themselves from the President, the White House signalled that its "Stay the Course" motto was being refined, and more and more Republicans began to call for Rumsfeld's resignation. The vast majority of Americans wanted to see America succeed in its mission in Iraq, and now that seems increasingly unlikely. Democrats offered a more realistic, accurate appraisal of the situation, but there are no panaceas at this point. To many, every alternative seemed simplistic, wrong-headed, or even more prone to failure <br
In such a forbidding public dialogue, is it any wonder that John Kerry's blunder is being used to distract us? But how frightening and sad for America if we let this continue. How much easier to attack personalities and resurrect stereotypes than to deal with the grim realities of the Administration's national security predicament! The truth is that America's armed forces are badly overcommitted, the situation in Iraq has deteriorated beyond the ability of our best generals and bravest troops to correct, Afghanistan is sliding into a long-term insurgency which spells failure for the minimalist US commitment there, and both North Korea and Iran are ratcheting tensions. For a political party that fancies itself as the national security party, their cup runneth over with problems, many of their own making
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Read all posts by Gen. Wesley Clar

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Comments
Thank you General Clark for this post, and for your service to our country <br
By: situationcritical on November 01, 2006 at 07:11p
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General Clark
Thank you for continuing to be one of the very few grown-ups in the political arena. I supported you in the 2004 primary election and would be proud to do so again in 2008 <br
By: FastMovingCloud on November 01, 2006 at 07:21p
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WHO LIED TO US? BUS <br
WHAT IS THIS ELECTION ABOUT? IRA <br
HOW DID WE END UP FIGHTING A WAR IN IRAQ? BUSH'S LIES <br <br
VOTE FOR CHANGE - VOTE FOR DEMOCRAT <br
By: VOTER on November 01, 2006 at 07:26p
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Yes I agree. While Bush is pounding his pud in Georgia al Maliki is ordering U.S. troops to stand down. The Air Force is asking for more emergency funds for transporting the dead. is Bush asleep at the helm again, or just AWOL <br
By: fourex on November 01, 2006 at 07:28p
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Thank you, General Clark <br
Thank you for your tireless, seemingly endless travels around the country, supporting Dem candidates and speaking truth to power. Thank you for your inspiration to us to be involved and for leading by example <br
And thank you for continuing to go on FOX News and expose those who rarely hear truth and facts to the harsh realities of what this administration has done to our troops and our country <br
You make me proud to be an American! I'm a proud Clark Democrat <br
-je <br
By: zeph on November 01, 2006 at 07:35p
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We need you Wes Clark. Other dems should be out there doing the same. Unfortunately, they do not have the courage. Words and actions are two different things. You have spine, thank god someone does. John Kerry is a good man. This swiftboating thing needs to be recognized, right now, for what it is. Anytime, and I mean anytime you have Rush involved, it is low-down drug-induced, streetcorner swiftboating. Rush and Chimp maybe can get high together. It is a utter shame America was dragged through this. The Bushes do not want their actions revealed. Bottom-line. John Kerry is no fool. I believe he was really trying to say something, maybe what is yet to come. Lets see after this election. (Farce <br
By: init on November 01, 2006 at 07:40p
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The situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate and yet from the President of the United States we hear sound bites that link Democrats to terrorist and yet no widespread outrage from the media. Kerry botches a joke and it dominates the MSM for days.. <br
By: df on November 01, 2006 at 08:15p
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The whole Kerry dust-up is the "October surprise", or Rove's attempt to distract the people. I don't know this for a fact. It just has his stink all over it. You know the smell, rotting flesh mixed with a foul duck egg and gently rolled in dog poop <br
No worries, General. Most people know what sort of liar they're going to get when they vote for the (R) candidate <br
By: Dogvane on November 01, 2006 at 08:21p
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What jen said. Gen. Clark, I hope you run in 2008 <br
Meanwhile, let's get out the vote <br
By: Lindy222 on November 01, 2006 at 09:26p
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Now just wait for the trolls <br
C'on guys! Attack the messenger! Do not go near the message <br
Cowards. Show us your vaunted respect for the uniform <br
Oh. The uniform as long as it goose-steps to the rethug fascism <br
Any one who questions Bush's policies is a traitor. Any question any doubt is treason <br
First in his class at West Point. Go ahead. Shit down his neck, you lying cowards <br
Bush on trial for war crimes! Yes <br
By: kevinofburbank on November 01, 2006 at 09:54p
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Thanks General Clark. While all the finger-to-the-wind Dem's were backing away from Kerry, a few brave people were willing to say it like it was. It would appear that those who've served have real courage and one day this country will wake up to what real courage is. Kerry is campaigning for Lamont in Conn where no other Dem's have dared go. So has General Clark I believe. I still am stuck with the image of Kerry on 9/11. When everyone else was running away literally from Capitol Hill, here he was strolling calm as you please, looking up for incoming, like he would take them on himself. Our pet goat Commander In Chief was hightailing it elsewhere. Flying over everything like he did the devistation in New Orleans after Katrina. One day the spell is gonna break and Americans will be able to see clearly what true courage is. I just hope I'm still around to see it <br
One thing though: Kerry has got to learn not to set up the Republican right wing machine. If he'd just keep speaking from the heart and stop trying to be something. Does he have to go through the wilderness like Gore before he just let's go? I hope it doesn't take him as long <br
By: LaFilleEnRose on November 01, 2006 at 10:02p
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the general is absolutely right. lets get back to real issues like this ILLegal ILLplanned and ILLconducted war.let us also not forget "bootyman" mark foley and republican corruption. where is tom delay, deke cunninghan and the abrams influence peddling crew in todays discussions? it has been truly disgusting listening to the wartime deserter in chief george bush and dick "five deferments" cheney ranting about how offended they were that someone might have dissed the troops. the biggest troop dissing event in america takes place every veterans day when bush, a war time deserter or cheney a cowardly draft dodger who pleaded for and received five deferments, when guys his age were dying in vietnam, lays a wreath on the most sacred grave in the USA, the "tomb of the unknown". that act alone brings more dishonor and disgrace to this nation and to soldiers that served, putting their lives on the line, than any thing john kerry, a decorated veteran, could ever cause by screwing up the delivery of a one-liner <br
By: drow1stboy on November 01, 2006 at 10:30p
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you are absolutely right general . lets get back to real issues,like the republican corruption that allowed "bootynan" foley to molest congressional pages nonstop in order to hold on to political party.it is disgusting, to listen to a war time deserter president, george bush and a cowardly draft dodger like dick "five deferments" cheney who pleaded for and got five deferments to stay out of uniform while other young men were paying the ultimate price in vietnam.john kerry, a bonified war hero and the bonified winner of the presidential election in 2004, was castigated by a bunch of lying chickenhawks including democrats and accused of dissing our troops in iraq. the greatest and most shameful dissing of our troops in america occurs on every veterans day when either an election stealing and war time deserter, george bush or a craven, cur dog, draft dodger who accepted five deferments, dick cheney place a wreath on the most sacred grave in america...the tomb of the unknown soldier.it is a sacrilige. no other event in this nation disses our soldiers in iraq and afghanistan more <br
By: drow1stboy on November 01, 2006 at 10:42p
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bootynam=bootyma
hold on to political party=hold on to political powe <br
By: drow1stboy on November 01, 2006 at 10:48p
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You'd think it was a slow news week. News media everywhere jumping on this one: a has-been (never-was?) Democrat senator putting his foot in his mouth
Meanwhile George Malaprop Bush spouting off inanities left and right
Record number of American men and women killed in Iraq during the month of October
Foley, Delay, Abramoff, etc. etc. etc. What the hell is it with the news media? Are they really that desperate for a story? Doesn't Snowjob give them enough to write about <br
By: azm on November 02, 2006 at 01:04a
Flag: [abusive
GENERAL CLARK IS SO RIGHT ABOUT RETURNING TO THE REAL ISSUES FACING US THIS ELECTION <br
HOWEVER BEFORE WE DO, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A NATIONA <br
"THANK YOU" CAMPAIGN TO THE WHITE HOUSE FOR TODAY' <br
DISTORTION OF THE FACTS <br
We should let the White House, the Republican Party and th <br
sleazy media hounds know how much we appreciate seeing through Bush's lies and distortions just days before the Election <br
After all it was Bush's misrepresenting facts which got us into Iraq <br
We need to let him know his latest Rove tactic has failed <br
WE SHOULD NOT LET THIS GET US DOWN. WE SHOULD HAVE MORE RESOLVE THAN EVER BEFORE TO SHOVE THIS IN BUSH'S FACE <br
LET'S TEASE HIM WITH THOUSANDS OF THANK YOU CALLS AN <br
EMAILS. LET'S MAKE HIM SQUIRM! LET'S PUT THE HEAT BAC <br
WHERE IT BELONGS <br
By: VOTER on November 02, 2006 at 01:37a
Flag: [abusive
MOVE ON <br
No matter what the news-blip of the moment may be, the Bush War in Iraq is an American Tragedy <br
HAD ENOUGH? It is MOST important to vote Democrartic this time <br
By: ALUJCIC on November 02, 2006 at 02:32a
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Thank You General Clark. The reason they're in Iraq is they didn't stop the US from being attacked with more than enough information in the first place. This administration dropped the ball, and then continued making disasterous mistakes from then on. We went after OBL, then stopped, falsely accused Iraq, then falsely mislead everyone that Iraq was involved. They were not. They mislead us into believing they were a threat to our security and safety, and they weren't. They sqandered 100's of billions without a plan, trying to accomplish occupation of Iraq on the ground without enough troops and not equipped properly, against a lot of experts saying a ground conflict couldn't be done without lots of casualties. Again they didn't listen. They continued to jepardize the lives of many of our service people and continue the rhetoric and spin that we're winning, when thats more lies. We deserve the truth, our military people deserve the truth, and we need to have a government administration we can look up to and trust, and we don't have that. We need to get the killings stopped, and accept the reality that it was wrong to have killed so many, and put our troops in constant danger for so long. The only way to do that is to vote the group out that have enabled the administration to continue these disasterous foreign policies, and domestic policies. We don't need any more to die from the failure of others <br <br
 
Sorry about that - I'm not sure how I ended up with the blog's comments in there, but it's from the Huffington Post - I don't get too much into the blogs, but the articles are quite interesting and sometimes, as in the case of Gen. Clark's, not found elsewhere <br
Here is a bit of a history lesson on Iraq from today's NYT <br
November 2, 200
Op-Ed Columnis
Same Old Demon
By DAVID BROOK <br
Policy makers are again considering fundamental changes in our Iraq policy, but as they do I hope they read Elie Kedourie’s essay, “The Kingdom of Iraq: A Retrospect. <br
Kedourie, a Baghdad-born Jew, published the essay in 1970. It’s a history of the regime the British helped establish over 80 years ago, but it captures an idea that is truer now than ever: Disorder is endemic to Iraq. Today’s crisis is not three years old. It’s worse now, but the crisis is perpetual. This is a bomb of a nation <br
“Brief as it is, the record of the kingdom of Iraq is full of bloodshed, treason and rapine,” Kedourie wrote <br
And his is a Gibbonesque tale of horror. There is the endless Shiite-Sunni fighting. There is a massacre of the Assyrians, which is celebrated rapturously in downtown Baghdad. Children are gunned down from airplanes. Tribal wars flare and families are destroyed. A Sunni writer insults the Shiites and the subsequent rioters murder students and policemen. A former prime minister is found on the street by a mob, killed, and his body is reduced to pulp as cars run him over in joyous retribution <br
Kedourie described “a country riven by obscure and malevolent factions, unsettled by the war and its aftermath.” He observed, “The collapse of the old order had awakened vast cupidities and revived venomous hatreds. <br
In 1927, a British officer asked a tribal leader: “You now have a government, a constitution, a parliament, ministers and officials — what more can you want?” The tribal leader replied, “Yes, but they speak with a foreign accent. <br
The British tried to encourage responsible Iraqi self-government, to no avail. “The political ambitions of the Shia religious headquarters have always lain in the direction of theocratic domination,” a British official reported in 1923. They “have no motive for refraining from sacrificing the interests of Iraq to those which they conceive to be their own. <br
At one point, the British high commissioner, Sir Henry Dobbs, argued that if Britain threatened to withdraw its troops, Iraqis would behave more responsibly. It didn’t work. Iraqis figured the Brits were bugging out. They concluded it was profitless to cultivate British friendship. Everything the British said became irrelevant <br
The Iraq of his youth, Kedourie concluded, “was a make-believe kingdom built on false pretenses.” He quoted a British report from 1936, which noted that the Iraqi government would never be a machine based on law that treated citizens impartially, but would always be based on tribal favoritism and personal relationships. Iraq, Kedourie said, faced two alternatives: “Either the country would be plunged into chaos or its population should become universally the clients and dependents of an omnipotent but capricious and unstable government.” There is, he wrote, no third option <br
Today Iraq is in much worse shape. The most perceptive reports describe not so much a civil war as a complete social disintegration. This latest descent was initiated by American blunders, but is exacerbated by the same old Iraqi demons: greed, blood lust and a mind-boggling unwillingness to compromise for the common good, even in the face of self-immolation <br
The core problem is the same one Kedourie identified decades ago. Iraq is teetering on the edge of futility. Perhaps a competent occupation could have preserved it as a coherent entity, but now the Iraqi national identity is looking like a suicidal self-delusion <br
Partitioning the country would be traumatic, so after the election it probably makes sense to make one last effort to hold the place together. Fire Donald Rumsfeld to signal a break with the past. Alter troop rotations so that 30,000 more troops are policing Baghdad <br
But if that does not restore order, if Iraqi ministries remain dysfunctional and the national institutions remain sectarian institutions in disguise, then surely it will be time to accede to reality. It will be time to effectively end Iraq, with a remaining fig-leaf central government or not. It will be time to radically diffuse authority down to the only communities that are viable — the clan, tribe or sect <br
A muscular U.S. military presence will be more necessary than ever, to deter neighboring powers and contain bloodshed. And the goals will remain the same: to nurture civilized democratic societies that reject extremism and terror <br
But the boundaries may have to change. The war was an attempt to lift a unified Iraq out of its awful history, but history has proved stubborn. It’s time to adjust the plans to reality
 
Good morning Don <br
I am not trying to say you are anything. I would say, from your posts, that you have already shown who you are. If there was any doubt, your last post fills in the blanks
I do not care what you drive, what books you read,what nasty crap you see, or what nasty names you and your friends use, or that you are a tolerant redneck. (your own words <br
I do not back down from a fight if it is something worth fighting for. If you met up with my boyfriend, and HIS buddies, you would pee your pants. They like to fight for fun <br
At any rate, perhaps you and I should stop meeting like this Don. I don't think our relationship is going to work out
Besides, this is a thread for intelligent comments, and of good things to come. It's really not about old wars, and bigotry <br
Yours
Rickr <br <br
 

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