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massachusetts? whats that? Thats yankee territory bud. I live in the south where we do things right. Do <br
AHHH! Theres that old southern charm and hopspitality i hear so much about. Please,...you can have it.
 
Don and Rickr

Things are heating up here-Don,I don't understand homosexuality either,but the point is that I don't have to.I don't need to understand it to know that those who practice it HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO.Rickr and others,I apologize for the words Don used(even though he used them in the context of others using them).When someone on this site needs repair advice,or a part to complete a restoration,no one asks whether the giver or reciever of the help is gay or straight,northern or southern,black,white,or other,male or female,etc.If I see three men beating up one man on a corner,I'm not going to ask the victim what his sexual orientation is before helping him.The point is that good people are just that,and just maybe discussions like this are what can bring good people to understand each other better
Tom
 
Hey, I'm all good, and have no problem with Don. We just don't think the same way about my lifestyle. I think it's my own business when you get right down to it, and Don doesn't have anything to do with it. I won't change the way Don thinks, and I am not going to change to please anyone, so lets go on now.
 
First of all,Mulls,you can not apologize for me. I did not say anything to apologize for. Rickr, I did not ask you to change your lifestyle. I read what everybody is bitching about and then put in my 2cents. I dont hate gays or any race,so where you get bigotry from is beyond me. Don
 
If history were taught anymore, people would realize how dangerous and corrupt life is when religion and state are one. They do not know about the Holy Roman Empire, of which it is said, was neither Roman nor holy. They do not know about the Puritans and Cavalliers in England, nor the Puritans in the American colonies. They cannot draw any lessons from Iraq and Iran. We had a little taste of it here in the DC area when the White House tried to cut a deal with the Salvation Army. The White House was going to let the SA provide faith based help, and get a lot of money for doing it, but they assured the SA that it would not have to comply with local anti-discrimination laws under the contract that the federal government was drafting. Says Who? When that hit the fan, it made a big mess and people who were not blinded by the constant references to religion made by elected and unelected officials saw which way this was headed. Of course when their nasty attitude and double-dealing were made known, donations fell and SA kettles were not allowed near some establishments, but it was all blamed on the homosexuals and their heathen supporters in the "Democrat" party. I wonder which scholar came up with using a noun as an adjective, but I guess that means they are what, "Republics"? I do not know why people who are supposed to be so filled with Christ's spirit are so bigoted, mean and hate-filled. I do not understand why heterosexual men are so obsessed about gay and lesbian sex; unless, of course, they really want to do it but are too chicken (no offense meant to any poultry). It seems amazing to those of us who lived through John F. Kennedy's campaign where the fear was that the Vatican would run the United States that we now have our government asking Rome to prevail upon the Church Bishops in the United States to advance the administration's plans to ban same-sex marriage. <br
The sad thing about democracy is the same as the best thing about democracy; the majority rules. Human rights for minorities should not be subject to vote. Human rights are human rights and the majority should not be in the position of taking away or denying them to any group solely on the basis of who they are. <br
Would you call it treasonous that our government refuses to defend out borders; letting in huge numbers of undocumented non-citizens at a time when security because of the war on terror is their mantra? These people in charge have an agenda. We won't know what it is until it's too late, but they have to be working toward something. This war is either a smokescreen to take our attention away from something even more awful than war or is a way for them to steal the treasury of our country; transfering a very large part of it to the corporations they control so that they will have it all when they leave office. I don't know where they plan to live when all of the social and environmental pathologies they have allowed and encouraged come to pass with a vengence, but they will have their precious wealth.
 
Civil Communication

I am 55 and have been around the block several times. I was always identified as a "girly man" and it was sometimes assumed, I was gay. I did not come out or begin to participate in a homosexual acts until 2 years ago. The perceptions however, have been what I had to respond to and live with, my entire life.
Having been perceived as a queer, I managed to have a very successful career, raised four healthy children, participated in organized religion was a mover and shaker in the community.
Freed from sterotyping into male behaviors,I found many opportunities to talk with men. Men on the pipleline in Alaska, in the South, the Midwest, throughout the country. My experience has been that men are willing and receptive to an opportunity to take off the iron collar and talk about the struggle of filling the male role model, as they perceived it for themselves. Communing with a women in such a fashion, is not the same. A women cannot understand.
As flawed as my masculinity is, I could still understand what it's like to have everything be your job, your fault, your responsibilty and a reflection of your reputation, simply because of your gender. It has been my extreme pleasure for almost 25 years, to simply hold witness to universal struggle of being male and living up to the set of expectations that is implicit in being male in America. The greatest gift for any man, is to be in a place where even for a moment, you don't have to be strong
I think of all the moments my heart will beat in my lifetime. Then I think of how many of those moments, my clothes will be off, if front of another person. Almost none. The arguement of what I do with my genitals is moot with everyone but the person I am looking naked at. That is why I believe a certain amount of decorum and civility serves me. I am not obligated to preoffend every person I meet, before I know if the subject of gay sex will ever come up. (No Pun) Univerally men are weary. The life we thought we'd be living in our 50's is unlike everything I prepared myself for. To maintain the status Quo, let alone move ahead requires more savvy, skill and pressure than many of us can conjure. All around us, bastions of security, pension plans, lending institutions, retirement, are all disappearing. I believe, as men, our struggle is more universal than we give voice to. At the end of the day, if we were blindfolded, the penis has no brain. Warm, moist and rythmic brings the same response
Soapboxing and driving each other further into our isolated corners is delaying acceptance of the real truth. We are tired, frightened and need each other more than we admit <br
Intolerances in the Gay community are as rampant and cruel as anything ever devised in a concentration camp
Be 55, not having left the gym with toned abs, wearing what is considered the acceptable label and walk in a bar. Old Gay Alert. Then, hook up with an old gay and hear, "If I meet one more person who doesn't own their own house, have a 401K and able to join me when I have a chance to fly to Mexico, I 'll just scream." You must look a certain way, be seen with a right crowd, use the correct speech, have the appearance of wealth and HEALTH and YOUTH, regardless of your age, socio income level and choice of metro, leather or stank.
Intolorance is universal. It is not a phenominon known only to men in states with South as the first word
Many have posted their joy of arguing for the sake of it. Love that turned over soup tureen! Haha. This thread is evidence that arguing is devisive, hurtful and polarizing. When we didn't agree in the first 20 posts than the rancor increased, the generalized statements became more volatile and we have become completely distracted with attacking each other and defending our point. At his very moment our government, the real enemy in this, is happyily whistling a tune and methodically stripping each of our rights and hope, gay and straight.
They won, because someone here "loves" to argue <br
Gentlemen, we are not the enemy <br
Kelly
 
word, Kelly, word

I think, at this point, it is best to simply accept a very simple truth: Those of us who are dissatisfied with the current administration and legislature will continue to be. Those who aren't have obviously no problem with what has gone down the last six years
They aren't open or willing to accept what anyone else has to say; we are too convinced that our freedoms and lives are at stake here
It is a bad situation, very bad
Let's just hope those of us who feel threatened are overreacting and those who really think things are ok are not just blind to reality
Because once the mechanisms are in place, that's it. There will be no one to rescue us as in Nazi Germany...the US is truly the last, great hope of mankind. And if this country goes, that's all she wrote
Enough clichés, enough discussion. I think it is time for me to retire from this thread
Please, everyone who still believes that homosexuals have a right to exist in peace, go vote on Tuesday. The democrats may not be something you feel great about, but consider the alternative...many many gays and Jews and Roma were there and died here in Germany, don't let it happen again.
 
Interesting turn of events

This was a news bulletin on MSNBC a few minutes ago. It is amazing how one's true orientation can be supressed and/or kept hidden for only so long and then, suddenly, like the Jack in the Box cranked to the exact note, the top flies open and everything is revealed. You would almost swear that some closets have explosive bolts on the door hinges <br
I loved our Jack in the Box. Inside, with all of the fabric under the clown's head, I thought it looked like a washing machine (a big surprise, I know).

 
Come out,come out, wherever you are....

Well... These are the kinds of things that staying in the closet will do to you. These guys are getting it somewhere. Or at least trying. What a shame. Some people even commit suicide rather than face a hostile society. It is not healthy to stay in the closet.
 
two words

considering the anguish and shame and hatred the church has caused, and the role that clowns like Haggard has in spreading it.. *Just Desserts*
 
Yep, they figure, why wait for Armageddon to happen? Let's beat the Christmas rush <br
I'm not sure Haggard's fall from whatever grace he'd attained will have much effect on his followers, politically. Many feel that if he's saved, he's not obliged to follow the Ten Commandments at any rate. It's complicated, but they have all these rationalizations that seem to reconcile all these little contradictions for them.....it's dizzying <br
I've been reading what are easily the most vile, hate-filled posts regarding the escalating violence surrounding the Jerusalem Pride parade next week, and, frankly, I'm really beginning to fear a bloodbath over there <br
Yet what message would cancelling the parade send <br
Sometimes, I feel as confused as an eleven-year-old.
 
Power in the hands of one party - the corporations.

November 3, 200
Op-Ed Columnis
As Bechtel Goe
By PAUL KRUGMA <br
Bechtel, the giant engineering company, is leaving Iraq. Its mission — to rebuild power, water and sewage plants — wasn’t accomplished: Baghdad received less than six hours a day of electricity last month, and much of Iraq’s population lives with untreated sewage and without clean water. But Bechtel, having received $2.3 billion of taxpayers’ money and having lost the lives of 52 employees, has come to the end of its last government contract <br
As Bechtel goes, so goes the whole reconstruction effort. Whatever our leaders may say about their determination to stay the course complete the mission, when it comes to rebuilding Iraq they’ve already cut and run. The $21 billion allocated for reconstruction over the last three years has been spent, much of it on security rather than its intended purpose, and there’s no more money in the pipeline <br
The failure of reconstruction in Iraq raises three questions. First, how much did that failure contribute to the overall failure of the war? Second, how was it that America, the great can-do nation, in this case couldn’t and didn’t? Finally, if we’ve given up on rebuilding Iraq, what are our troops dying for <br
There’s no definitive way to answer the first question. You can make a good case that the invasion of Iraq was doomed no matter what, because we never had enough military manpower to provide security. But the lack of electricity and clean water did a lot to dissipate any initial good will the Iraqis may have felt toward the occupation. And Iraqis are well aware that the billions squandered by American contractors included a lot of Iraqi oil revenue as well as U.S. taxpayers’ dollars <br
Consider the symbolism of Iraq’s new police academy, which Stuart Bowen, the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, has called “the most essential civil security project in the country.” It was built at a cost of $75 million by Parsons Corporation, which received a total of about $1 billion for Iraq reconstruction projects. But the academy was so badly built that feces and urine leak from the ceilings in the student barracks <br
Think about it. We want the Iraqis to stand up so we can stand down. But if they do stand up, we’ll dump excrement on their heads <br
As for how this could have happened, that’s easy: major contractors believed, correctly, that their political connections insulated them from accountability. Halliburton and other companies with huge Iraq contracts were basically in the same position as Donald Rumsfeld: they were so closely identified with President Bush and, especially, Vice President Cheney that firing or even disciplining them would have been seen as an admission of personal failure on the part of top elected officials <br
As a result, the administration and its allies in Congress fought accountability all the way. Administration officials have made repeated backdoor efforts to close the office of Mr. Bowen, whose job is to oversee the use of reconstruction money. Just this past May, with the failed reconstruction already winding down, the White House arranged for the last $1.5 billion of reconstruction money to be placed outside Mr. Bowen’s jurisdiction. And now, finally, Congress has passed a bill whose provisions include the complete elimination of his agency next October <br
The bottom line is that those charged with rebuilding Iraq had no incentive to do the job right, so they didn’t <br
You can see, by the way, why a Democratic takeover of the House, if it happens next week, would be such a pivotal event: suddenly, committee chairmen with subpoena power would be in a position to investigate where all the Iraq money went <br
But that’s all in the past. What about the future <br
Back in June, after a photo-op trip to Iraq, Mr. Bush said something I agree with. “You can measure progress in megawatts of electricity delivered,” he declared. “You can measure progress in terms of oil sold on the market on behalf of the Iraqi people.” But what those measures actually show is the absence of progress. By any material measure, Iraqis are worse off than they were under Saddam <br
And we’re not planning to do anything about it: the U.S.-led reconstruction effort in Iraq is basically over. I don’t know whether the administration is afraid to ask U.S. voters for more money, or simply considers the situation hopeless. Either way, the United States has accepted defeat on reconstruction <br
Yet Americans are still fighting and dying in Iraq. For what
 
Are "we" this stupid? I fear the worst...

November 3, 200
Op-Ed Columnis
Insulting Our Troops, and Our Intelligenc
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMA <br
George Bush, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld think you’re stupid. Yes, they do <br
They think they can take a mangled quip about President Bush and Iraq by John Kerry — a man who is not even running for office but who, unlike Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, never ran away from combat service — and get you to vote against all Democrats in this election <br
Every time you hear Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney lash out against Mr. Kerry, I hope you will say to yourself, “They must think I’m stupid.” Because they surely do <br
They think that they can get you to overlook all of the Bush team’s real and deadly insults to the U.S. military over the past six years by hyping and exaggerating Mr. Kerry’s mangled gibe at the president <br
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to the U.S. military than to send it into combat in Iraq without enough men — to launch an invasion of a foreign country not by the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force, but by the Rumsfeld Doctrine of just enough troops to lose? What could be a bigger insult than that <br
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than sending them off to war without the proper equipment, so that some soldiers in the field were left to buy their own body armor and to retrofit their own jeeps with scrap metal so that roadside bombs in Iraq would only maim them for life and not kill them? And what could be more injurious and insulting than Don Rumsfeld’s response to criticism that he sent our troops off in haste and unprepared: Hey, you go to war with the army you’ve got — get over it <br
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than to send them off to war in Iraq without any coherent postwar plan for political reconstruction there, so that the U.S. military has had to assume not only security responsibilities for all of Iraq but the political rebuilding as well? The Bush team has created a veritable library of military histories — from “Cobra II” to “Fiasco” to “State of Denial” — all of which contain the same damning conclusion offered by the very soldiers and officers who fought this war: This administration never had a plan for the morning after, and we’ve been making it up — and paying the price — ever since <br
And what could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in Iraq than to send them off to war and then go out and finance the very people they’re fighting against with our gluttonous consumption of oil? Sure, George Bush told us we’re addicted to oil, but he has not done one single significant thing — demanded higher mileage standards from Detroit, imposed a gasoline tax or even used the bully pulpit of the White House to drive conservation — to end that addiction. So we continue to finance the U.S. military with our tax dollars, while we finance Iran, Syria, Wahhabi mosques and Al Qaeda madrassas with our energy purchases <br
Everyone says that Karl Rove is a genius. Yeah, right. So are cigarette companies. They get you to buy cigarettes even though we know they cause cancer. That is the kind of genius Karl Rove is. He is not a man who has designed a strategy to reunite our country around an agenda of renewal for the 21st century — to bring out the best in us. His “genius” is taking some irrelevant aside by John Kerry and twisting it to bring out the worst in us, so you will ignore the mess that the Bush team has visited on this country <br
And Karl Rove has succeeded at that in the past because he was sure that he could sell just enough Bush cigarettes, even though people knew they caused cancer. Please, please, for our country’s health, prove him wrong this time <br
Let Karl know that you’re not stupid. Let him know that you know that the most patriotic thing to do in this election is to vote against an administration that has — through sheer incompetence — brought us to a point in Iraq that was not inevitable but is now unwinnable <br
Let Karl know that you think this is a critical election, because you know as a citizen that if the Bush team can behave with the level of deadly incompetence it has exhibited in Iraq — and then get away with it by holding on to the House and the Senate — it means our country has become a banana republic. It means our democracy is in tatters because it is so gerrymandered, so polluted by money, and so divided by professional political hacks that we can no longer hold the ruling party to account <br
It means we’re as stupid as Karl thinks we are <br
I, for one, don’t think we’re that stupid. Next Tuesday we’ll see
 

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