*RIP* Charlton Heston
- Thread starter launderess
- Start date
He was one of the greatest, but had been in bad health for some time. RIP.
vulcanchef
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2008
- Messages
- 66
bugga! moses is dead
gyrafoam
Well-known member
A hopeless homophobe.And so dense, according to Gore Vidal, that when he played the part of a homosexual male in Ben-Hur, they just passed word around not to tell him about it so he wouldn't know!
vulcanchef
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2008
- Messages
- 66
Ben-Hur was gay ?
gyrafoam
Well-known member
According to Gore Vidal that was the part as written. The censors made them change a few things here and there, but that was the part.
polkanut
Well-known member
For all of his accomplishments, he was still a homophobe. One down, so many more to go.
panthera
Well-known member
Let's see,
he wore togas up to here, all his real bonding was with hunking men and there were more lines on the reach of his pointed, er, weapon, then anything else.
I do believe it was gay.
Leastways, that's why I watched it. Sure as hell wasn't for the brilliant dramaturgy. Hell, his over-acting made Bette Davis look like a toned down, shy little wall-flower.
But, gosh - beautiful as he was, he was evil. His NRA leadership split the nation so badly that to this day you are either a knee-jerk liberal who sees all guns as all bad all the time or a wild-eyed-reactionary who justs wants the Feds to come pry them out of your cold-dead-hands.
In a very real sense, we have this man to thank for much of the disenfranchisement of white men and the Democratic party.
The last fist fight I got into in my life was back in college. Our speech professor asked us where we stood on controversial issues - then assigned us to debate, supporting the opposing viewpoint/s to our real ones. Since I was on the school's archery team, a certified card carrying hunter safety and shooting range member (not to mention a life-long member of the NRA) I got assigned to argue against the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. Actually had a Bubba from one of our red-nex commuities start a fight with me the next day for my being a "knee-jerk-east-coast-liberal."
The campus paper hushed it all up. It just didn't play well that queenly little me had broken the jaw of one of the school's football players over guns and violence.
Back then, he was an exception. Today, that is rather the highest level these discussions reach.
Glad your gone, Mr. Carter. Hope your penance is to spend the next century defending gun-control to good 'ole boys.
he wore togas up to here, all his real bonding was with hunking men and there were more lines on the reach of his pointed, er, weapon, then anything else.
I do believe it was gay.
Leastways, that's why I watched it. Sure as hell wasn't for the brilliant dramaturgy. Hell, his over-acting made Bette Davis look like a toned down, shy little wall-flower.
But, gosh - beautiful as he was, he was evil. His NRA leadership split the nation so badly that to this day you are either a knee-jerk liberal who sees all guns as all bad all the time or a wild-eyed-reactionary who justs wants the Feds to come pry them out of your cold-dead-hands.
In a very real sense, we have this man to thank for much of the disenfranchisement of white men and the Democratic party.
The last fist fight I got into in my life was back in college. Our speech professor asked us where we stood on controversial issues - then assigned us to debate, supporting the opposing viewpoint/s to our real ones. Since I was on the school's archery team, a certified card carrying hunter safety and shooting range member (not to mention a life-long member of the NRA) I got assigned to argue against the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. Actually had a Bubba from one of our red-nex commuities start a fight with me the next day for my being a "knee-jerk-east-coast-liberal."
The campus paper hushed it all up. It just didn't play well that queenly little me had broken the jaw of one of the school's football players over guns and violence.
Back then, he was an exception. Today, that is rather the highest level these discussions reach.
Glad your gone, Mr. Carter. Hope your penance is to spend the next century defending gun-control to good 'ole boys.
panthera
Well-known member
Nate,
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.
But please do note my position on gun control:
I advocate gun control: I shoot better with both hands.
So how come I'm more upset about the loss of habeas corpus then you are? Why are you supporting the Republicans who are trying to establish a national ID card?
As a native Coloradoan, I can assure you that eminent domain -put through by conservative Justices against the Clinton appointees - has cost more farmers their land than anything else.
Please, by all means go on hating the Clintons if you like. But take a look at what's happening in 2008. And who's taking your rights today.
Ya know, Clinton really was a jerk - he brought us the longest period of peace and prosperity in the 20th century. Let's forget that and just remember his zipper malfunction and a gun control order that has since lapsed.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.
But please do note my position on gun control:
I advocate gun control: I shoot better with both hands.
So how come I'm more upset about the loss of habeas corpus then you are? Why are you supporting the Republicans who are trying to establish a national ID card?
As a native Coloradoan, I can assure you that eminent domain -put through by conservative Justices against the Clinton appointees - has cost more farmers their land than anything else.
Please, by all means go on hating the Clintons if you like. But take a look at what's happening in 2008. And who's taking your rights today.
Ya know, Clinton really was a jerk - he brought us the longest period of peace and prosperity in the 20th century. Let's forget that and just remember his zipper malfunction and a gun control order that has since lapsed.
Moses, Moses, Moses....
Despite his assinine politics, there was a great movie star. I think we would all be surprised if we could administer some truth serum to many of our favorite celebrities. Nothing like tons of moolah to turn a liberal into a closet conservative.
Despite his assinine politics, there was a great movie star. I think we would all be surprised if we could administer some truth serum to many of our favorite celebrities. Nothing like tons of moolah to turn a liberal into a closet conservative.
who said I support Republicans?
Just for the record -- I think the Dems and Repubs are two sides of the same evil coin -- Libertarianism and freedom is the only real solution.
As for a national ID card, you will remember that it was Mr. Clinton who signed HIPPA which created a national database of employed persons, and Mr. Gore who first advocated a national ID card. Both parties are filled with sleazy small minded evil people.
As for Mr. Clinton bringing us a long run of peace and prosperity, I cannot deny the 1990s were a time of high consumption, but it wasn't prosperity, it was expansion of credit, just as in this decade.
You could even argue that the extra money freed up was from the end of the cold war which was a Regan/HW Bush policy.
The real issue is the American people: They have stopped pressing for Liberty, but only to Keep My Children Safe!
Liberty and Security only truly come when your populace is one of citizens, no 'consumers' or 'serfs.' Unfortunately, the people of the United States of America don't seem to be interested in being citizens any longer.
Before you make assumptions as to anyone's political beliefs, or beliefs on other social issues, please be sure you know what they are.
Nate
Just for the record -- I think the Dems and Repubs are two sides of the same evil coin -- Libertarianism and freedom is the only real solution.
As for a national ID card, you will remember that it was Mr. Clinton who signed HIPPA which created a national database of employed persons, and Mr. Gore who first advocated a national ID card. Both parties are filled with sleazy small minded evil people.
As for Mr. Clinton bringing us a long run of peace and prosperity, I cannot deny the 1990s were a time of high consumption, but it wasn't prosperity, it was expansion of credit, just as in this decade.
You could even argue that the extra money freed up was from the end of the cold war which was a Regan/HW Bush policy.
The real issue is the American people: They have stopped pressing for Liberty, but only to Keep My Children Safe!
Liberty and Security only truly come when your populace is one of citizens, no 'consumers' or 'serfs.' Unfortunately, the people of the United States of America don't seem to be interested in being citizens any longer.
Before you make assumptions as to anyone's political beliefs, or beliefs on other social issues, please be sure you know what they are.
Nate
panthera
Well-known member
I stand corrected, Nate.
I assumed (made an ass of myself) you leaned towards the Republicans because I don't recall you ever having had anything but bad things to say about traditionally non-Republican concepts.
I am not a libertarian, but a pragmatist. Since the odds approach unity that the next president will be either a democrat or a republican, I must concern myself with the lesser of two evils. Of the only two parties having a realistic chance at nominating the president, I tend to lean towards that party which most respects the Constitution of the US.
I humbly bow out and leave you to your freedom - won't trouble you again.
I assumed (made an ass of myself) you leaned towards the Republicans because I don't recall you ever having had anything but bad things to say about traditionally non-Republican concepts.
I am not a libertarian, but a pragmatist. Since the odds approach unity that the next president will be either a democrat or a republican, I must concern myself with the lesser of two evils. Of the only two parties having a realistic chance at nominating the president, I tend to lean towards that party which most respects the Constitution of the US.
I humbly bow out and leave you to your freedom - won't trouble you again.
Hell, man, that's what good politicsl discourse is about
No worries panthera.
I am an equal opportunity skewerer. I agree with you, I'm very pragmatic too - how can you not be in this world?
I do believe in holding on to your highest ideals, though, as I have GOT to have something to hope for and work toward. It's difficult, given the current political and economic situation (for the last 20 years) to feelthat sometimes.
I'm a big believer in personal choice. Don't believe in gay marriage? Don't marry someone of your same gender. Don't believe in drugs? Don't take them. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. (though that one is tougher..when DOES life begin? It isn't only the mother's choice here..but that's ANOTHER firestorm I'm NOT going to invoke).
I certainly agree that I lean toward the party that most respects the US Constitution. I just don't know which one that is!
Nate
No worries panthera.
I am an equal opportunity skewerer. I agree with you, I'm very pragmatic too - how can you not be in this world?
I do believe in holding on to your highest ideals, though, as I have GOT to have something to hope for and work toward. It's difficult, given the current political and economic situation (for the last 20 years) to feelthat sometimes.
I'm a big believer in personal choice. Don't believe in gay marriage? Don't marry someone of your same gender. Don't believe in drugs? Don't take them. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. (though that one is tougher..when DOES life begin? It isn't only the mother's choice here..but that's ANOTHER firestorm I'm NOT going to invoke).
I certainly agree that I lean toward the party that most respects the US Constitution. I just don't know which one that is!
Nate
My partner and I were speculating yesterday on who would now pick up the NRA torch now that homophobe and gun fanatic Heston is rotting. My guess is Tom Selleck, another macho actor whose sexual preference has always been in question. He seems the most Heston-like guy to press onward with the NRA's misguided cause and most here have likely heard about the heated argument he had with Rosie O'Donnell on this issue back when she had her talk show.
well...Mr. Heston hasn't been president of the NRA for s
Mr. Heston has not been NRA president for several years. He's simply a celebrity who has had his name associated with it.
I cannot speak for his homophobia, but anyone who marched with MLK certainly had courage of his convictions.
As a pragmatist msyelf (thanks panthera I like the term too), I can admire the good the man has accomplished, while wishing he had more enlightenment.
Mr. Heston has not been NRA president for several years. He's simply a celebrity who has had his name associated with it.
I cannot speak for his homophobia, but anyone who marched with MLK certainly had courage of his convictions.
As a pragmatist msyelf (thanks panthera I like the term too), I can admire the good the man has accomplished, while wishing he had more enlightenment.
why, thank you.
As y'all can probably guess I'm a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.
In general, the people who commit crimes with guns are CRIMINALS.
There are by conservative estimates 40 million gun owners in the country, and by not so conservative estimates, 100 million gun owners.
I am a big believer that any class of people who might get attacked because of the color of their skin, their gender, or their sexual orientation, should know how to shoot and own a gun.
People of various types - Jews, Gypsies, Jehova's Witnesses - were sent to concentration camps to die a horrible death, at government order. I do not advocate violence, but it seems to me in a case like this, take the oppressors with you.
Conversant with 'keeping your powder dry' I also believe in dialog aand discourse -- keep talking to people who don't understand you, because with understanding, comes enlightenment. "Oh, I don't like blacks but I like this guy, he's okay" "Oh, I don't like gays but my neighbors are cool." In some cases it is a lost cause.
But i have found in my life that very little is a lost cause.
Nate
As y'all can probably guess I'm a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.
In general, the people who commit crimes with guns are CRIMINALS.
There are by conservative estimates 40 million gun owners in the country, and by not so conservative estimates, 100 million gun owners.
I am a big believer that any class of people who might get attacked because of the color of their skin, their gender, or their sexual orientation, should know how to shoot and own a gun.
People of various types - Jews, Gypsies, Jehova's Witnesses - were sent to concentration camps to die a horrible death, at government order. I do not advocate violence, but it seems to me in a case like this, take the oppressors with you.
Conversant with 'keeping your powder dry' I also believe in dialog aand discourse -- keep talking to people who don't understand you, because with understanding, comes enlightenment. "Oh, I don't like blacks but I like this guy, he's okay" "Oh, I don't like gays but my neighbors are cool." In some cases it is a lost cause.
But i have found in my life that very little is a lost cause.
Nate
laundromat
Well-known member
I though this sight was for appliance collectors/restorers.Not religious,political radicals!
who is a religious or political radical?
I happen also to be an appliance collector.
And if you think I'm a religious radical, you're absolutely wrong.
If you think I'm a political radical, well, I suppose you also mean that free speech is radical? Being safe and secure in your home and possession is radical?
Give me a break.
I happen also to be an appliance collector.
And if you think I'm a religious radical, you're absolutely wrong.
If you think I'm a political radical, well, I suppose you also mean that free speech is radical? Being safe and secure in your home and possession is radical?
Give me a break.
panthera
Well-known member
a new low!
I have just about had it with the name calling around here.
First, I'm a "Bully" and a "Nazi" - me a nazi???
Then folks drag the name of one of the less pleasant but long since gone ex-members through the mud.
OK, I admit - I have a sharp tongue and sometimes I say things I regret. When I apologize, it is genuine and I make my best effort not to repeat it.
Calling Conate a radical or whatever because he happens to enjoy a right guaranteed to him by an amendment to the American Constitution is more than over the top, it is just plain wrong.
I firmly believe that there is a place here for everyone as long as we respect Robert's rules. We are, after all, in his living room here.
Would you attack me for being gay? Am I an object of your hatred because my murdered husband was black? The records were lost in the war, but with 99% certainty, my father was adopted out of Nazi Germany by good Catholics who, at their own risk, took Jewish babies, called them their own and smuggled them out. Israel might not consider me Jewish, but does my Jewish blood offend you?
Nope, of course not - you would rather bite your tongue off than to say anything nasty against one of the politically correct groups. But may the gods forfend that a member have a view of things which is not on the official "liberal" list.
I live in a city of over one million people. Our violent crime rate is so low that it takes us decades to equal the shootings and nastiness any American city our size achieves in one month - some in one weekend. Yet we have more citizens trained in the use of firearms and more firearms here than "officially" in the US.
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
Calling me a Nazi because I am German, calling Nate a radical and saying he is unwelcome because he dares to be something besides a lap-dog-Democrat (card carrying since my 18th birthday) is inexcusable. I don't agree with all of his views, but I don't recall him ever having been rude or nasty to anyone - especially not to me when we have disagreed. Frankly, I'd rather have him, armed, at my side walking down the streets of Denver than an intolerant person whose approval is dependent upon my following his narrowly defined code of political correctness. At least I could, then, walk the streets. Last time I was in Denver, we had to be sure to get out of the downtown area before sundown because our language and skin color were inappropriate to survival.
If you disagree, fine. But keep a civil tongue in your mouth!
I have just about had it with the name calling around here.
First, I'm a "Bully" and a "Nazi" - me a nazi???
Then folks drag the name of one of the less pleasant but long since gone ex-members through the mud.
OK, I admit - I have a sharp tongue and sometimes I say things I regret. When I apologize, it is genuine and I make my best effort not to repeat it.
Calling Conate a radical or whatever because he happens to enjoy a right guaranteed to him by an amendment to the American Constitution is more than over the top, it is just plain wrong.
I firmly believe that there is a place here for everyone as long as we respect Robert's rules. We are, after all, in his living room here.
Would you attack me for being gay? Am I an object of your hatred because my murdered husband was black? The records were lost in the war, but with 99% certainty, my father was adopted out of Nazi Germany by good Catholics who, at their own risk, took Jewish babies, called them their own and smuggled them out. Israel might not consider me Jewish, but does my Jewish blood offend you?
Nope, of course not - you would rather bite your tongue off than to say anything nasty against one of the politically correct groups. But may the gods forfend that a member have a view of things which is not on the official "liberal" list.
I live in a city of over one million people. Our violent crime rate is so low that it takes us decades to equal the shootings and nastiness any American city our size achieves in one month - some in one weekend. Yet we have more citizens trained in the use of firearms and more firearms here than "officially" in the US.
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
Calling me a Nazi because I am German, calling Nate a radical and saying he is unwelcome because he dares to be something besides a lap-dog-Democrat (card carrying since my 18th birthday) is inexcusable. I don't agree with all of his views, but I don't recall him ever having been rude or nasty to anyone - especially not to me when we have disagreed. Frankly, I'd rather have him, armed, at my side walking down the streets of Denver than an intolerant person whose approval is dependent upon my following his narrowly defined code of political correctness. At least I could, then, walk the streets. Last time I was in Denver, we had to be sure to get out of the downtown area before sundown because our language and skin color were inappropriate to survival.
If you disagree, fine. But keep a civil tongue in your mouth!
Panthera, thank you!
Panthera, thank you for your great comments.
The fact of the matter is, folks, none of you know me. Heck some of you have met each other, but I daresay most of the board has never met.
Having said that, it is very dangerous for anyone to draw conclusions based on erroneous data. And when you have inadequate facts, your data is erroneous.
I do not have to agree with everyone. Everyone doesn't have to agree with me. However, name calling is not appropriate in any way, shape, or form. Bludgeoning with words is a bludgeoning, just as folks who commit crimes with baseball bats etc. But,a s panthera pointed out so nicely, a civil discourse is always appropriate.
You know, when I was growing up in the '60s and '70s, I used to believe that liberal meant 'You do your thing and I'll do mine, and we'll be happy together' and conservative meant 'You do my thing and I'll do my thing and I'll be happy.' But as the years have gone by, BOTH liberal and conservative have grown to mean 'You do my thing and I'll do my thing.' Two of the saddest things in the USA these days is that BOTH the Republican and Democrat parties have been co-opted by radical elements, and portray each other as evil horrors - when in reality there is so little difference between them, when all is said and done, to be laughable. BOTh believe in ever increasing state control of every aspect of our lives - except the Ds want to control money and business first, then personal behavior and the Rs want the other way around.
Before anyone calls anyone a fanatic, learn where they are coming from. You might find that decent people who support freedom are much more similar than different.
It might also surprise some -- those who think me a radical conservative bigot -- that i SUPPORT gay marriage (Hell if 'n' people love each other and are attracted to each other and are of legal age and can consent, GO FOR IT), I SUPPORT racial equality and integration, I SUPPORT the ERA. Some of us believe that freedom is not 'choose one from column A, one from Column B' -- it means freedom, freedom to be what you wish, to choose, to do. It means that others must leave you unmolested, even if they disagree. Indeed, engaging in spirited discussions is great, but use of force - through the gun or written word - is inappropriate in civil discourse.
Nate
Panthera, thank you for your great comments.
The fact of the matter is, folks, none of you know me. Heck some of you have met each other, but I daresay most of the board has never met.
Having said that, it is very dangerous for anyone to draw conclusions based on erroneous data. And when you have inadequate facts, your data is erroneous.
I do not have to agree with everyone. Everyone doesn't have to agree with me. However, name calling is not appropriate in any way, shape, or form. Bludgeoning with words is a bludgeoning, just as folks who commit crimes with baseball bats etc. But,a s panthera pointed out so nicely, a civil discourse is always appropriate.
You know, when I was growing up in the '60s and '70s, I used to believe that liberal meant 'You do your thing and I'll do mine, and we'll be happy together' and conservative meant 'You do my thing and I'll do my thing and I'll be happy.' But as the years have gone by, BOTH liberal and conservative have grown to mean 'You do my thing and I'll do my thing.' Two of the saddest things in the USA these days is that BOTH the Republican and Democrat parties have been co-opted by radical elements, and portray each other as evil horrors - when in reality there is so little difference between them, when all is said and done, to be laughable. BOTh believe in ever increasing state control of every aspect of our lives - except the Ds want to control money and business first, then personal behavior and the Rs want the other way around.
Before anyone calls anyone a fanatic, learn where they are coming from. You might find that decent people who support freedom are much more similar than different.
It might also surprise some -- those who think me a radical conservative bigot -- that i SUPPORT gay marriage (Hell if 'n' people love each other and are attracted to each other and are of legal age and can consent, GO FOR IT), I SUPPORT racial equality and integration, I SUPPORT the ERA. Some of us believe that freedom is not 'choose one from column A, one from Column B' -- it means freedom, freedom to be what you wish, to choose, to do. It means that others must leave you unmolested, even if they disagree. Indeed, engaging in spirited discussions is great, but use of force - through the gun or written word - is inappropriate in civil discourse.
Nate
I collect both appliances and --guns.And of course vacuum cleaners.
Anyway-I beleived in Mr Heston when he was president of NRA-I am a card carrying member-and proud of it.The 2nd Amendment is one of our MOST precious ones in the Consitutuion next to the 1st.If the 2nd Amendment is taken away-many politicians are trying and the NRA is fighting them like a pit bull.If the 2nd is taken away it is then MUCH easier to take away others.Folks have to WAKE up to this.The Democrat presidentual candidates want to try to take away YOUR 2nd Amendmet rights.Don't let this happen!I think most folks in the US want to have the choice of owning and using a firearm up to THEM--not the politicians.Think CAREFULLY before you vote-Your RIGHTS may be at stake!
I admired Mr Heston when he held up his rifle that was presented to him and Says"From My Cold Dead Hands!"I agree with him 100%.Now back to appliances!
Anyway-I beleived in Mr Heston when he was president of NRA-I am a card carrying member-and proud of it.The 2nd Amendment is one of our MOST precious ones in the Consitutuion next to the 1st.If the 2nd Amendment is taken away-many politicians are trying and the NRA is fighting them like a pit bull.If the 2nd is taken away it is then MUCH easier to take away others.Folks have to WAKE up to this.The Democrat presidentual candidates want to try to take away YOUR 2nd Amendmet rights.Don't let this happen!I think most folks in the US want to have the choice of owning and using a firearm up to THEM--not the politicians.Think CAREFULLY before you vote-Your RIGHTS may be at stake!
I admired Mr Heston when he held up his rifle that was presented to him and Says"From My Cold Dead Hands!"I agree with him 100%.Now back to appliances!
runematic
Well-known member
amen, Nate & Rex.
I would never entertain the suggestion that I MUST own a gun and make no mistake about it, the NRA does NOT in any way shape or form speak for me and I find it insulting that anyone would suggest that they do. Once my dad passed away we got rid of every gun he owned. The toughest one to unload was a German machine gun he brought home as a trophy from WWII. As much as I respected his sentiment behind nabbing that gun from a presumably dead enemy soldier, as I looked at that gun all I could feel was bad karma from an instrument that killed who knows how many allied soldiers. What a hot potato that gun turned out to be. It was illegal in California, and most states for that matter even though ammunition is no longer available, and my mom ended up giving to a law enforcement acquaintance so we could just be rid of it. I hope that thing was melted down post haste.
Did I make myself clear? The NRA does NOT speak for me!
Did I make myself clear? The NRA does NOT speak for me!
panthera
Well-known member
Ralph,
I am walking a pretty tight line here. It is sad fact that in the US today, things have become so polarized, that one is pretty much either so or so.
I am most definitely a liberal, closely aligned with the Democrats when it comes to human rights (especially Constitutional Rights like habeas corpus), my right to marry and love the man I care for, a woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, the right of black people to be treated with the same humanity as white people.
But, having grown up in the Rocky Mountain West, not the crime filled violence of big American cities - and living in Western Europe where, although we are armed to the teeth, guns and violence just aren't a problem, I can't do the knee-jerk thing on gun control.
That does not mean I support the NRA, I resigned my life-long membership a long time ago, back when they started looking like the dictionary definition of paranoid.
I think I understand your feelings on the matter, really I try to. I just think it is up to us on the "left" not to fall into the black and white thinking which has let the Republicans win so many folks over to them in the last years.
There is no way in hell you are ever going to get guns out of American society. It's like prohibition. Even if you succeeded in taking them away from people who legally own them, the criminals would still have them. All we can succeed in doing there is in driving otherwise sane people further into the arms of the wing-nut right. And please, even if you only view guns as instruments of crime and evil - for many folks in the West, they are necessary tools. I'm a vegetarian, I don't hunt. But I truly enjoy target shooting.
Of all the issues which separate the east and west coast liberals from the independent and moderate voters in the West and South, this is the one where the folks on the coasts are just going to have to buy a clue - it's a non-starter.
What is much more worth spending time on is the question of why there is so much violent crime in the US. I've said it about a million times, but we are armed to the teeth here and yet we just do not have the problems you have. Sure, the occasional whack job will get a gun and murder people. But it takes us years to equal one bad weekend in Detroit. That is so wrong!
Can we have a dialog - you, me, everyone on this and leave our resentments ("only from my cold, dead hands" "all democrats want to take away our rights" on the one side and "all guns are evil, anybody who carries one is sick" on the other?) I truly don't believe anyone, not even Rex is trying to make you join the NRA.
But if I, one of the most liberal folks on this board can be notional, well, can't we all try a bit?
Huh?
Please?
(Oh, and Rex, I gotta say it - it was the Republicans and not the Democrats who took away your right to habeas corpus. That right was fundamental to what made America free. And your only hope for getting that right back is, hold your nose, the democrats. Just a thought.)
I am walking a pretty tight line here. It is sad fact that in the US today, things have become so polarized, that one is pretty much either so or so.
I am most definitely a liberal, closely aligned with the Democrats when it comes to human rights (especially Constitutional Rights like habeas corpus), my right to marry and love the man I care for, a woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, the right of black people to be treated with the same humanity as white people.
But, having grown up in the Rocky Mountain West, not the crime filled violence of big American cities - and living in Western Europe where, although we are armed to the teeth, guns and violence just aren't a problem, I can't do the knee-jerk thing on gun control.
That does not mean I support the NRA, I resigned my life-long membership a long time ago, back when they started looking like the dictionary definition of paranoid.
I think I understand your feelings on the matter, really I try to. I just think it is up to us on the "left" not to fall into the black and white thinking which has let the Republicans win so many folks over to them in the last years.
There is no way in hell you are ever going to get guns out of American society. It's like prohibition. Even if you succeeded in taking them away from people who legally own them, the criminals would still have them. All we can succeed in doing there is in driving otherwise sane people further into the arms of the wing-nut right. And please, even if you only view guns as instruments of crime and evil - for many folks in the West, they are necessary tools. I'm a vegetarian, I don't hunt. But I truly enjoy target shooting.
Of all the issues which separate the east and west coast liberals from the independent and moderate voters in the West and South, this is the one where the folks on the coasts are just going to have to buy a clue - it's a non-starter.
What is much more worth spending time on is the question of why there is so much violent crime in the US. I've said it about a million times, but we are armed to the teeth here and yet we just do not have the problems you have. Sure, the occasional whack job will get a gun and murder people. But it takes us years to equal one bad weekend in Detroit. That is so wrong!
Can we have a dialog - you, me, everyone on this and leave our resentments ("only from my cold, dead hands" "all democrats want to take away our rights" on the one side and "all guns are evil, anybody who carries one is sick" on the other?) I truly don't believe anyone, not even Rex is trying to make you join the NRA.
But if I, one of the most liberal folks on this board can be notional, well, can't we all try a bit?
Huh?
Please?
(Oh, and Rex, I gotta say it - it was the Republicans and not the Democrats who took away your right to habeas corpus. That right was fundamental to what made America free. And your only hope for getting that right back is, hold your nose, the democrats. Just a thought.)
Thanks Keven. This forum isn't really the place for such a discussion but after reading Rex's post I had to add my $.02 even though I swore I wouldn't get involved. Statements like those made by Rex demand a response. Yours was far better than mine. Especially the parenthetical portion at the end of your post. The polarization in the U.S today is disturbing, the current administration is force feeding this cancerous condition in an attempt to maintain power via Mc Cain and will continue to do so right up until November and beyond to 1/20/09 regardless of who wins the general election.
So much for what I just said in my e-mail to you, eh Lawrence?
Ralph
So much for what I just said in my e-mail to you, eh Lawrence?
Ralph
panthera
Well-known member
I know, Ralph
It just dries me ape shit. I aprecate your point of view - and hope we can all finally rise above the GAGA level to tackle the real problems.
It just dries me ape shit. I aprecate your point of view - and hope we can all finally rise above the GAGA level to tackle the real problems.
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
Nuke the whales.
Chuck
Chuck
