Sealed Tubs in Front Loaders (VIDEO)

[washerdude]

Saw an interesting video on sealed tubs being used in front load washers. I personally have never been a fan of sealed tubs as it reduces the ability to replace critical components. I wouldn't call it a scam though, i've always been under the impression that manufactures do this simply because many consumers don't opt to spend the money it would cost to replace bearings, spiders etc, however I still think offering a tub which can be split and have replaceable components is the obvious ideal choice.

Whirlpool began doing this 15-ish years back I believe, in the last 5-6 years LG followed and GE, Electrolux, Samsung have continued providing the ability to replace spiders and bearings.

 

[henene4]

He has a lot of opinions I personally put down to "old man yelling at clouds" - but that's just me...

Sealed tubs are indeed a huge PITA for future collectors. It is a certain repairability issue.
And there are stil a bunch of machines here in the EU (and thus the UK) that have splittable tubs, and even at a bunch of price points.
Many Midea (I think it was Midea) designs still have splittable tubs. So do LGs here. And Miele in the TOL.
So I don't think it's necessarily a pricing issue - but a sealed tub is easier to produce. Ultrasonic welding is a 0 person 0 interaction job, and even the simplest splittable tub needs something like 8 bolts and a somewhat delicate seal.

The parts being expensive is mostly down to storing them.
They are HUGE, so even if you have to store let's say only 1000 of them for 10 years, that's a big volume of pretty irregularly shaped stuff takeing up space in a warehouse somewhere.


And for repairs in the end, I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
Can't say when I actually paid an appliance technician - but I guess their hourly rate is 100-200€?

Of course it's a huge variance from case to case -
but you'd have to rip out the entire tub anyway.
And then, with a split tub, you have to take apart the tub, take out the bearings, clean everything up, put in the bearings, reassemble everything and HOPE the seal is ok at the end.
That takes what - at least an hour to do, probably more?

So if you spend 300€ on the tank or 150€ on parts and 150€ on extra labor - most people would still not do that for a machine that's 500€ new when the total bill at the end is around 500€ anyway.


And then there's the additional layer of work context.
I think it was on here someone hat a Miele W1 have a bearing failure during warranty. Unfortunate, but manufacturing defects happen to everyone.
I think that the W1 is actually one of the designs where you could - with some finesse, though I haven't seen proof of it yet - get out the bearing cross without tearing the tub out.

But they just replaced the entire machine. Why? To do that repair to Miele standards, you'd need tools not easily transportable. And even if not, to not violate work safety in relation to max lift weights per person, you'd need 2 people there.
So, even for Miele, it would be more expensive to do a bearing job than to replace the entire machine.



I do think it's a shame that that's what it has come to - but I don't think having splittable tubs, or stainless tubs, would change the fact a bearing failure is not economically repairable.

 

[henene4]

I'm a bit more awake now, and have something to add for a bit of a comparison.

I went back to check if the Midea machines have splittable tubs here - and they do!
A back tub with bearings can be had for 75€ for a base 7kg machine - but that's for a 280€ machine.

In lieu I also stumbled across one of the new-ish trends in these super low end washers here.
These now have the majority of motor electronics mounted directly on the motor.
So an inverter failure - a pretty well known failure mode - would mean you'd have to replace the entire motor.
That has to be planned obsolescence, right?
Well - that motor is 125€ total. That's WAY less than an ELux inverter board.
But it's still probably not economically viable to exchange the motor on that particular machine.
But neither would be just replacing an inverter board.


So again:
Is it actually THAT wasteful that replacing one part needs the replacement of multiple parts if the repair itself barely ever actually makes sense?
The whole item being disposable is wasteful - but again, many would not be willing to pay twice or thrice for 2x or 3x the lifetime of that item up front.

There's a certain debate about car engines with plasma sprayed cylinder liners not really being rebuildable.
And some call that planned obsolescence.
But if you buy a car for 30k new off the lot, you can drive that for 15 years, and after 250000km/155000miles your engine would need a rebuild, how many would actually put 3k or more in repairs into a 15y car?
And even those who wanted - would those pay 3k for the new block, or 3k for something like 10-15 mechanic hours?

That's nothing new. The debate is with basically every product on the market today.
And my answer will always be the same:
You get what you pay for. The engineers on the backside are in more than 80% of cases not in any way evil.
The market wants what it wants (a 10kg high end brand washer in the sub 600€ range), the manufacturer makes that possible (stripped down, highly automatic and optimised assembly) and repairability is the thing that has to give cause it's the exact same equation - human labour is expensive, and products are not.

 

[launderess]

He has a lot of opinions I personally put down to "old man yelling at clouds" - but that's just me...

Sealed tubs are indeed a huge PITA for future collectors. It is a certain repairability issue.
And there are stil a bunch of machines here in the EU (and thus the UK) that have splittable tubs, and even at a bunch of price points.
Many Midea (I think it was Midea) designs still have splittable tubs. So do LGs here. And Miele in the TOL.
So I don't think it's necessarily a pricing issue - but a sealed tub is easier to produce. Ultrasonic welding is a 0 person 0 interaction job, and even the simplest splittable tub needs something like 8 bolts and a somewhat delicate seal.

The parts being expensive is mostly down to storing them.
They are HUGE, so even if you have to store let's say only 1000 of them for 10 years, that's a big volume of pretty irregularly shaped stuff takeing up space in a warehouse somewhere.


And for repairs in the end, I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
Can't say when I actually paid an appliance technician - but I guess their hourly rate is 100-200€?

Of course it's a huge variance from case to case -
but you'd have to rip out the entire tub anyway.
And then, with a split tub, you have to take apart the tub, take out the bearings, clean everything up, put in the bearings, reassemble everything and HOPE the seal is ok at the end.
That takes what - at least an hour to do, probably more?

So if you spend 300€ on the tank or 150€ on parts and 150€ on extra labor - most people would still not do that for a machine that's 500€ new when the total bill at the end is around 500€ anyway.


And then there's the additional layer of work context.
I think it was on here someone hat a Miele W1 have a bearing failure during warranty. Unfortunate, but manufacturing defects happen to everyone.
I think that the W1 is actually one of the designs where you could - with some finesse, though I haven't seen proof of it yet - get out the bearing cross without tearing the tub out.

But they just replaced the entire machine. Why? To do that repair to Miele standards, you'd need tools not easily transportable. And even if not, to not violate work safety in relation to max lift weights per person, you'd need 2 people there.
So, even for Miele, it would be more expensive to do a bearing job than to replace the entire machine.



I do think it's a shame that that's what it has come to - but I don't think having splittable tubs, or stainless tubs, would change the fact a bearing failure is not economically repairable.

A member had bearing issue with his new Miele 48XX washer.

Miele sent a tech from several states away to diagnose issue and reported machine would require transporting back to Miele's shops in NJ for the work, then shipped back. Since machine was still under warranty this would all be covered with no out of pocket cost to owner.

Member told Miele USA to scrub that, as a new machine shouldn't have bearing issues (tech agreed) and he wanted Miele USA to replace defective machine with new, that is what happened.

Here in USA Miele will not carry out any sort of major repair of laundry appliances on site. Things such as motor, bearing changes, etc.. all happen at their shops in New Jersey. Units are packed up, crated, shipped to NJ, repaired, then reverse.

Quite honestly can understand Miele's point.

Not every home has a winch or whatever equipment required to safely get tub out of washer. Nor do all homes have space for repair person to litter about with bits and components removed from washer that need to come off or out to make repair.

 

[me]

I'd rather see manufacturer's fit a more durable shaft seal than putting prices up by going back to non-welded tubs. In my experience, it is almost always the shaft seal that fails before the bearings, and hard water seems to make the seal fail much sooner, I believe because the lips on the rubber seal can't flex once they get encrusted with hard limescale, and with the water level being quite low, even descaling it doesn't get it all off.

I'm no expert, but possibly a "Cassette Seal" might last longer.

I wonder what percentage of splitable tub machines were actually being repaired before welding became popular. Unless a machine is still in guarantee when the bearings start to go, I'd expect most people would run it into the ground until the noise became unbearable, the electronics refused to spin anymore, the door seal started smoking, or something broke.

By the time the bearings fail, the machine is likely to be at least 7 years old or had very heavy use, unless it is a complete POS, or has been abused. If you opt to get a professional repair, you've got a call out fee( likely £100 - £150 here in the UK) which will just cover diagnosis, plus I would expect about 3 hours labour, plus the price of parts. And on top that you may well have to take the day off work to let the repairman in and could be over a week without a machine, if he's busy. And even then, being old, if you get unlucky, the machine might breakdown with another fault in a few months time.

It only really makes sense these days, if you are prepared to do it yourself, and if you DIY, even a sealed tub is not insurmountable. * (Although I'd not use silicone, either weld or use a polypropylene adhesive. )

I think most people would opt to buy a nice and shiny new machine, with lots of brand new, although possibly pointless, extra features and more importantly a decent length guarantee. Might well be cheaper too.


*

As a keen DIYer, I'm not a fan of sealed tubs either, but consider them practically inevitable to allow manufacturer's to keep cost down, If he got his way and banned them it would simply push manufacturers to move production to cut labour costs.

I'd commented in that YT video [link here] and one of his previous about the cost savings and reducing the number of parts and assembly steps in production, although henene4 explains it better here, but it didn't go down very well

Someone made a very good point in one of his other videos, that even if a manufacturer was to use a machine to put all the screws in at once, it is still likely to be slower than an ultrasonic welder and it would be far more costly to buy and maintain the machinery and would need more frequent maintenance to ensure it works properly and achieves the correct torque.

 

[me]

I think that the W1 is actually one of the designs where you could - with some finesse, though I haven't seen proof of it yet - get out the bearing cross without tearing the tub out.

I have watched a YT video, where someone changing the bearings on a Miele without dismantling it. As I recall, they wedged the stainless steel tub as far forward as possible, unbolted the cast iron crosspiece with the bearings in it and had to pry it off the shaft because the clearance was slightly too tight. Didn't seem to cause any damage and they got it working ok.

I've also seen one where a low end make with a plastic tub had the front of the tub held on by plastic clips moulded in the tub instead of screws, the rear and sides were a single very deep moulding. This meant he could remove the front of the machine and rear access panel and knock out the tub without dismantling the machine.

I did wonder if it might be viable with to have a design with the drum bearings and seal mounted in a direct drive motor that bolted to the back of a sealed plastic tub, so that the bearings, seal and gasket could be changed by removing the rear access panel and pulling the motor off.