Seeking advice about KitchenAid dishwashers.

[ctv]

I would very much like any and all opinions regarding some dishwashers I have. Two I'm pretty sure are true Hobarts. The other two (plus a "donor") I'm not sure about. All five say they're KitchenAid, but after some research here I suspect two, plus the donor, are maybe Whirlpool with Hobart innards? I can't seem to find either the right information or any at all on the web, so I don't know which one to use/install. I thought it might be better to not add all the pictures and info I'd written down, as I wasn't sure what was relevant.
I've been on this site often enough to realize different people look for different things when offering help, advise or guidance.
So I'd like to leave it up to the collective wisdom of the experts here to let me know what information and pictures they'd prefer to see.
I've written down everything from the front panels, plus the model numbers of the machines and motors.
I have pictures of the panels, the insides with and without the wash arm and of the sump area, and pictures of the motors.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Christine.

 

[stevet]

Hit us with your best shot!

Why not start with your Model Numbers as that is all anyone would need to begin with? We all probably know what the innards look like but always appreciate seeing what condition they are in to determine whether a machine is worth restoring or using.

Start there and let's see where it takes us!

 

[ctv]

Ok. Here goes...

1) Superba Sure-Temp Water Heating.
Whisper Quiet.
Model: YKUDA23OYWO
The sticker on the motor says "KitchenAid"
" Gold Seal Reversing Motor"

 

[ctv]

Number 2.

Energy Saver IV Imperial by Hobart.
Model number KDI-19C.
Motor number Type KD-18.

 

[ctv]

Number 3

Automatic Water-Heating.
Quiet Scrub.
Model number 4KUDP220T2.
I'm too blind to read the eeny-weeny model number on the motor, but the part number says ( I think) 242892. It also says KitchenAid with what looks like the back slanting letters RU stuck together.
This is what I'm using now and I'm not impressed, which I'll explain in number 4 coming right up.

 

[electronicontrl]

YKUDA23OYWO

YKUDA23OYWO
This is the Architect Series.
I'd put that one in my kitchen for certain.
IIRC it has the WP motor/pump but is "hybrid" with a "hobart-looking" interior.

 

[ctv]

And finally number 4

Imperial 21.
Model number KDI-61C.
Motor type KD-20A.
This one I've used before, and it worked great!. I really got into giving it a good clean before I was going to install it as an under-the-counter unit from it's original portable state, but discovered a leak when I test-drove it from the cooling fan area. It was flinging the water from the fan, so I turned it off, and it's sat there since then.
Number 5 is just a donor. Do you want info on that, too?

 

[ctv]

Poor baby needs some tlc.

She probably doesn't like feeling "naked".

 

[ctv]

To Electronicontrl

But that's the icky one I'm using now. I'm always having to scrub stuff off that's left behind, and little nibblies are left on the glasses and cups on the top rack. The one that's in pieces did a way better job, even with a really clogged filter-screen in the water intake valve thingy where the motor is.
I only discovered that while I was under there cleaning. Before that, I had always wondered why it sounded like the water was dribbling when it was filling. And it STILL did a better job than the one I'm using now.

 

[electronicontrl]

@ ctv

Interesting. I thought that was the last of the good ones.
I have this which I picked up off CL for $40
It is in my basement. I have 2 Maytag reverse racks in my kitchen, but I DO LIKE my KitchenAid

 

[ctv]

And this is where it gets confusing for me

because the picture you posted seems close to that white one I have, but because the indicator lights are slightly different and yours says Classic 21 makes me wonder if mine is still one of the "good" ones in that it'll still act like a true Hobart. I've read on here that even after Whirlpool took over, they were still for a time making them the same as what Hobart did. Or did I misunderstand that? The only thing I can compare any dishwasher to is my poor disassembled Imperial 21, which kicked ass no matter what I put in it or how much I loaded it. But by the time I had discovered the leak I had spent so much time taking it apart and cleaning it (scraping off rust down to metal), that I got frustrated with hand-washing and gave up. Now I'm wondering if I should re-address that leak (which also seemed like a daunting task at the time), or go with the white Superba or the black Energy Saver.
Please! I need some opinions on this dilema!

 

[rp2813]

The portable Imperial 21 appears to be a true Hobart machine.  That could be the reason why it kicks ass and why you like it so much.  You may be able to use parts from the machine you're using now, a Superba 22, to fix whatever is wrong with the Imperial.

 

If that's not possible, machine #1, the white Superba 23 with "Sure Temp" would be my next choice.  It's has more Whirlpool influence, but in a good way according to some of the experts here.  If noise is an issue, the 23 will be quieter than the 21.

 

The Imperial 19 "Energy Saver IV" is all Hobart but does not offer a heated dry cycle.  If you're OK with that, it should perform at least as well as the Imperial 21.

 

That's my $.02, but I know just enough to be dangerous.  Steve T. is our resident Hobart SME so let's see what he has to say.

 

[ctv]

To rp2813

I just checked, and the Imperial 21 has a Hobart motor. So, would it be worthwhile to look into the water leak, then? Through research on this site, it sounded like it needed a new seal (shaft?) of some kind, but I was looking into it awhile ago just before I gave up in frustration. I had already put about a weeks worth of extreme cleaning into it, and from what I read about a possible seal replacement seemed too much for my brain to handle. And right around that time is when I acquired the one I'm using now that doesn't do a good job, That Has Got To Go!
Regarding your take on the white Superba, I care not about noise as long as it blows the crud off the dishes. Small price to pay, in my opinion.
Both previous owners of the white Superba and the black Energy Saver said they did a good job, but I haven't tested either. It's a fairly large undertaking to move them where I can test them.
And I never use the heat option when drying anyway, so the black Energy Saver would be fine, too.
I just can't decide what to do with the choices I have.

 

[ctv]

To Electronicontrl

I'm sorry! I got it wrong. Too many numbers floating around......
I had thought you were making reference to the one I'm using now, thus my original response.
The white Superba is what you were recommending, right?
I knew I should have started this thread in the morning after, at least, the second cup of coffee.

 

[rp2813]

If replacing the seal or whatever component is causing the leak on the Imperial 21 seems like too big a job, the Imperial 19 "Energy Saver" would be the closest match to use as a replacement machine.  You may be happiest with that one.

 

If it's not too much trouble, you can test out the other machines outdoors or in a garage by filling them with water, either from a bucket or garden hose, and if necessary, using a bucket to catch the water as its pumped out during the drain function. 

 

The first test is the easiest and requires no water.  Just give the wash arm a spin and see how it behaves.  If it spins freely and quietly, great.  If it chatters its way around, you're looking at worn components. 

 

A deciding factor for you may be the number of rinses.  The Superba "Sure Temp" only provides a single rinse after the main wash.  I've owned a couple of single rinse models and it has never been a major issue.  Your current dishwasher is a single rinse model.  The Imperial 19 (and I think the 21) provides two rinses after the main wash.

 

If you're dealing with hard water, you may want to take into consideration which machines have rinse aid dispensers and which (if any) do not.

 

 

 

[Gilles8000]

In Canada, all dishwashers made by Hobart Canada all models have the rinse aid dispenser
.
All dishwahswer gave you a double rinse until the 21 series as explained below.

We used tp have a Kitchenaid KDC-20C (Custom) and remember ir quite well. After after, the main wash, it would go into a purge and then go into 2 rinses and dry.

The 21 series and later were the first dishwashers that would go into a purge after the main wash and then a final rinse. My aunt had the KDI-21C series made by Hobart.

I have the service manual for the 18, 18, and 20 series.

 

[ctv]

To rp2813

I think I like the idea of 2 rinses, as that seems a better idea than just the one. I'm also on well-water that can gurgle up some sediment that starts to clog up my kitchen faucet every couple of months or so but I wouldn't consider it really hard water.
I'm surprised to hear that the Superba only has one rinse. With all those lovely buttons I would have expected more from it.
All four have the rinse-aid dispensers. But I'm a bit of a chemical-phobe so am wary of what's in that stuff. I will do more research though, if you're recommending I use it for my type of water.
The weather is a bit too nippy to be testing the machines right now, which are on my deck, but that's a great idea and will do so when it warms up.
I have just done the wash-arm chatter test on all but the Imperial 21. The Energy Saver failed. The Superba didn't chatter, but I heard the faintest "whoosh" for about 1/4 of a full rotation which I'm assuming is normal.
So, it's down to the Superba or the Imperial. And since I know the Imperial does do a good job, along with having the coveted 2nd rinse, I'd like to find out more about that leak. The last time I ran it, water was being flung from what looked like the top of the cooling fan. I turned it off and unplugged it quick for fear of something getting zapped including me.
Any suggestions what to do from here?
I've got a friend who keeps threatening to buy me a brand new machine because of the griping I do about the currently installed one, but I keep telling him how great these baby's are.
So, ya, I'd like the opportunity to say to him "I told you so!"

 

[ctv]

To Gilles8000

Yes, mine all have rinse-aid dispensers. And with me being on well-water, it might be that I'll have to start using it although it isn't really hard water.
With the info I've gotten so far, it's now down to the Superba or the Imperial.
What would your opinions be on those two?

 

[rp2813]

I don't know if the wash arms are interchangeable on the two Imperials (there's an outside chance since the 21 is a Hobart), but you can determine that with just a visual check.  If the hubs look the same, try taking the arm from the 21 and putting it on the 19 and see if the chattering still happens -- that's if you first determine the arm on the 21 doesn't chatter where it is now.

 

The arms lift right off.  Just be sure the tips of them clear the bumps on the sides of the tubs that support the lower racks, and lift straight up.

 

If you still have chattering on the 19, the wash arm support likely needs some new components which others here can elaborate on.

 

[ctv]

Ah-Ha!

Another good idea about how to test something! Off to try that right now....

Ok, I'm back. The Energy Saver now has 2 strikes against it.
I switched wash-arms, and the Superba chattered a little bit in the Energy Saver, and the Energy Saver still chattered in the Superba. So I looked at where the arm sits on the shaft on both of them, plus the one from the Imperial, and it looks like some of the lip of the plastic which overlaps the inner metal tube has worn to the metal.
This is what it looks like, whereas the other two did not have that metal exposed. Is this normal for that type of wash-arm? And if not, would continuing to use it in that condtion contribute or be the cause of damage to anything else?

 

[electronicontrl]

@ CTV

Hi again. Yes I was referring to the white "top of line" model. IIRC it has the porcelain tub and racking just like the Hobart design. I have heard the Whirlpool pump & motor was a fine combination with this design. I think it is a pretty machine.
My Classic 21 Superba KDSC21A 223328700
was purchased by it's original owners in 5/1986. I bought it in 2007 for $40. The only reason it was removed from it's home was the owners were selling the house and they thought a brand new dishwasher would help sell the house (LOL)
The normal cycle sequence is wash - purge - rinse - wash - purge - rinse - dry
These machines used 2gal per fill (not sure how much the purge uses; the water runs for maybe 15-20 sec). It does a wonderful job.
Whirlpool bought KA in 1986. Hobart was using a motor from Emerson at the time.

 

[rp2813]

It could be that a plastic/neoprene washer belongs there.  If all three of those machines have interchangeable wash arm and support components, you should be able use the best ones to get at least one machine working properly.

 

This is where things get sketchy for me and I'll have to turn it over to the experts for further coaching.

 

If Steve T doesn't check in here soon, try to e-mail him directly.

 

[ctv]

To Electronicontrl

Thank you for getting back to me.
Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was the dumb-bunny that I sounded like from that first response I gave you.
It's my bedtime now, but will continue tomorrow.
Christine.

 

[ctv]

To Electronicontrl

To continue on.....
First off I'd like to say-Now that's the way to pack a dishwasher!
The poopy one I'm using now would get nothing clean if I packed it like that, but the Imperial sure would!
Sigh.....
The Superba does have the 4 option adjustable upper rack, and a removable thing on the bottom rack to make more room and the porcelain tub.
I wonder if those people who sold you theirs had any regrets later on. I myself never thought much about dishwasher til I got the Imperial. It was left by the previous tenants of a house I rented years ago. Now I'm spoiled because nothing compares!
So, did I understand correctly that you're saying the white Superba has 2 rinses?
I did find out something about the motor, though. It has a gold sticker that says "Gold Seal Reversing Motor". I found a 1991 newspaper advertisment about KitchenAid wanting to buy back those motors, among other things. I'm taking that as meaning that they're good motors, but was hoping someone here had heard of them.

 

[rp2813]

The white Superba has only one rinse after the main wash.

 

Reversing motors appeared beginning with the 21 series, as did the single final rinse.  The Imperial 19 has a non-reversing motor.  You can hear the distinct snapping sound of a solenoid when machines with non-reversing motors go into drain mode.

 

There's definitely something amiss with your current machine if it can't clean a load like the one pictured in reply #20.  That should be a cinch for a properly functioning KitchenAid.

 

I think you'd be satisfied with the results from the white Superba if that turns out to be the easiest option for replacing your current machine.  If you decide to go that route, there is a check valve you should examine for proper operation.  It's located at the end of the drain hose under the machine where it comes off the pump, and is fairly easy to remove.  It's just a rubber flap inside a plastic housing, but it's important that it's not stuck in the open position, otherwise spray from the upper wash arm could be compromised. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ctv]

Yes, that machine of mine..........

(picture #3),has brought forth many an expletive.
Amongst the Huge list of things I had to do to even get it to it's current crappy state was fix that valve you mentioned.
I too paid $40 for this one, plus 2 hours of my time to get it plus over a solid week of cleaning and repairs.
I'm just hoping now it will provide some good donor parts.
I also was told by the previous owner that the white Superba had what she called a "built-in garburator". Any idea what that's all about? And would you say it's similar to the Superba Classic 21 that you posted a picture of? And does yours also have the 8 buttons on the right?
Before I am able to remove the installed one, I need to get my Imperial out of the way as it's been sitting in my kitchen since I last worked on it but will need to be put back together before moving it.
So, this might inspire me to have one last look at that leak.
Have you ever fixed something like that?

 

[rp2813]

I didn't post the picture of the Superba Classic 21, but am thinking it would be missing one or two of the buttons that the white Superba has.  I don't think I've seen the "Quick/Glass" option on machines older than the 23 series.

 

The "garburetor" wouldn't be a new feature.  It's just a way of capturing and pulverizing solid food waste before sending it down the drain when the machine empties.  KA's made before the white Superba had this capability, but on the white machine the pump is a new and improved "power module" type that (some experts will say) performs better than its predecessors.  A visual check of the white Superba's sump area shows the obvious difference from your other, older KA machines.

 

I did have a leak issue with my In-Sink-Erator Classic Supreme dishwasher (identical to the KA 22 series you're currently using) after I installed it.  I couldn't find the source down below and I don't remember how I finally isolated it, but it turned out to be a loose screw on the exterior that helped secure the glide for the top rack assembly.  An easy fix.

 

I hope yours is something as simple to repair.  If not, install the white Superba which should give you good results, and then you can take your time trying to fix the Imperial 21.

 

[ctv]

Alrighty then

it'll be the Superba that's going in.
I do so hope it'll perform well.
I think, though, I'll see if I can "test drive" it first, while it's still on the deck.
I'll update how everything goes.
Many Thanks to all who have helped me thus far.
I love this site!
Even just to come on and read the banter that goes on here is sometimes very entertaining.
Now, if someone could just tell me how to alert or post about something I've seen for sale that I thought might be interesting....
Christine.

 

[rp2813]

For Sale Alerts

If you have access to the "Shoppers Square" forum, that's where to post.  If you don't, you can post it in the forum appropriate for the age and/or type of the item.

 

Copy the URL off the page you want to provide a link to, and paste it in the "URL Link to share" field directly below the "Message" field where you type the verbiage for your post.

 

Then hit "Preview," then "POST this to Discuss-o-Mat"

 

Good idea to give the white Superba a whirl before installing it.  If you do decide to use it, run the machine empty of dishes with a cup or two of white vinegar added after it fills for the main wash, or you can buy Lemishine powder at the grocery store or Target, which can also be used for cleaning the machine (more convenient than vinegar since you can use the dispenser) as well as for glassware loads.  It's usually found on the same shelves with the dishwasher detergents.

 

[ctv]

To rp2813

Yes, I've read here and other places about that vinegar idea. But once it's all rigged up for it's test-drive, what is it I should look/listen for?