Should I fix a 1-18 (again), are parts available?

[goprog]

WIC-A

Replaced water and oil bellows a number of years ago.
Replaced lint filter and rail/track a couple years ago.
Replaced agitator a few years ago.
"Cleaned" contacts on timer a number of times.

Now it is leaking water - a bit down the shaft, but
mostly out the plastic "drain channel" beneath the
tub. But doesn't always leak. Also has had difficulties
spinning (drive/roller/roller-tub) slipping.

Used WD-40 on top/bottom of roller in case it was
sticking preventing good contact between drive and
tub shaft, then used emery cloth on the metal parts
after cleaning, etc., while it was spinning (still
have all my fingers.) Seems to work better, but not
sure it will last.

So:

1) Is leak indicative of tub seal failure? Don't
want to go to trouble of removing inner tub (bellows, etc)
if won't get at the problem. I attached a drain pipe
last night to direct the leaking water out to a pail
instead of dripping inside cabinet for now.

2) More importantly, am I out of luck on replacing
the rollers (assuming they are worn and that is my
other problem)? If they can't be replaced, then it
may not be worth it to replace the tub seal or spend
more money and time on it...???

So far, I've spent 5 hours today reading and searching
on the internet for information. (Am I using the right
term for the rollers? Maybe that is why I can't find
good information.)

Otherwise, except for the repairs, it has been a good
machine for the 20 years we have had it. A few years
ago it was washing 3-5 loads a day I think.

 

[goatfarmer]

Leak does sound like a tub seal, although the bellows "could" have a hole in it. Either way, if it continues leaking, it will take out the bearings.

kennyGF

 

[alr2903]

YES, if you are lucky enough to have one id sure try to get it fixed.

 

[goprog]

Forgot to say - I did take out the agitator and checked
the water bellows. Seems to still be in good shape so
that leaves the tub seal as you state...?

Still need to find out if the rollers/idlers/whatever can
be replaced before I do anything. And given the reply
above about the bearings:

1) Are the bearings still available?

2) How do I know if the bearings need replacing? It's
only been used 3 times since it got really bad so I
could see it running off the shaft - had to get those
clothes washed last night - but maybe I just never noticed
it before. Though a quart or more of water on the floor
every load I think I would have noticed. (3 quarts for the
3 loads last night...) Still odd that at times during the
wash it didn't leak at all.

3) Replacing bearings very difficult?

 

[goprog]

"George" sent me an email suggesting Affordable Appliance
and Appliance Parts. Sent email to both an hour or so ago,
got a reply from Affordable Appliance asking for part numbers.
So anyone have part numbers for the "rollers" and bearings?
(I've found part numbers for the two bellows and tub seal
with my previous searches.)
Thanks.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Are the rollers completely clean and dry? No oil residue what so ever on them? Any foreign substance will make them slip.

 

[gansky1]

Clean the rollers with lighter fluid - scrub off all the dirt and they shouldn't slip.

Sounds like you could use new bellows and/or a new center seal.

 

[goprog]

Lighter fluid to me means for pocket lighters (probably
since Dad smoked a pipe...)

But is that the same thing as charcoal lighter fluid?
I also have acetone, mineral spirits, Fedron, adhesive
remover, (whatever that is)... (no pocket lighter fluid)

I think I got the rollers cleaned off well, wasn't getting
any residue on the paper towel when I held it against the
spinning rollers.

Though there seemed to be sort of worn/flat spots on
the rollers - not sure how that will affect the performance.
(Once things get moving, doesn't seem to matter, but when
it is heavily loaded, makes it harder to get things underway?)

Basic question still remains: can replacement rollers be
found or do I have to live/deal with what I've got? Not that
I want to deprive the universe of limited replacement parts
if unnecessary. Just believe in "reuse" before "recycle"
before "trash" - and my house looks like it.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Mineral spirits will work just fine. As for replacing the rollers, well they are no longer avaiable, so you are probably going to have to do quite a bit of searching and calling around.

While I have every part number for early Frigidaire washers, I don't think I have part numbers for newer Frigidaire washers, newer meaning later than 1965. I'll look again, but I doubt it, maybe someone else here has some later part books.

 

[angus]

Interesting, I have a similar issue with my "copper brown" W-3. It apparently leaks but only with a medium to large fill. I have run it with the low water level and not a drop. I would have thought if it was the bellows or tub seal, it would leak regardless of the water level.
I recall that there didn't seem to be anything amiss with the outer tub when I looked, so I didn't think there was a hole or anything there.

The original person who looked at the machine for me said that it was leaking down the shaft and that the bearings were shot. OF course, he is also the person who discarded all his old Frigidaire parts....

 

[goprog]

I've removed the inner tub and poured water in to just
above the bottom of the bellows. I am getting a leak.
May let it sit awhile to see how far down the water
level goes, if it goes below the bellows, then I'll
have to remove the water bellows to check further.
(Don't remember how/where the oil bellows fit from
the last time.)

I "think" I remember it being difficult to remove the
damaged bellows before and I ended up cutting, etc,
to remove it. (Also might have told myself I would
never do this again...)

Any hints on how to remove the bellows/ring-clamp
without damaging it before I become impatient and
start hacking away at it?

"newer meaning later than 1965" Dang, guess that
confirms it. I'm not young any more...

 

[Unimatic1140]

Any hints on how to remove the bellows/ring-clamp
without damaging it before I become impatient and
start hacking away at it?

Yes if you don't have the bellows ring tool, use a C-Clamp, it will depress the ring enough to open it.

 

[goprog]

AH!!! Right. I had forgotten how the clamp worked.
(That's sort of annoying. Wonder what else I no
longer remember...)

Thanks.

 

[goprog]

Inner (oil?) bellows top was torn (think that's where it
was damaged the last time, too.) Any idea why it is called
an oil bellows? Dave's Repair website says most of the
later 1-18's didn't use the inner bellows and smaller leaks
(especially on the later models) "were often through the
main shaft seal. Water leaking through this seal was
usually seen running out the plastic trough attached to
the mechanism." So wonder what would happen if I simply
didn't replace the inner bellows - or did they make other
changes at the same time to compensate?

Haven't been able to find a parts diagram that definitively
identifies a part number for the tub seal, but this link
seems to look like what I need - anyone who has replaced
the tub seal, does this look right? At $50, would hate
to order the wrong part. (Does that price sound right
too?)

http://www.repairclinic.com/0081.asp?RccPartID=643032
And theoretically... Thinking about the design for the
up/down agitation, I wonder about the air displacement
between the inner/outer bellows. Where does the air
"go" on the downstroke (and conversely where does it
come from on the upstroke?)

 

[Unimatic1140]

http://www.repairclinic.com/0081.asp?RccPartID=643032
Well that looks like it, but I can't tell for sure. Tonight I will scan a picture of what it looks like from the repair manual for you.

 

[whirlcool]

Remember WD-40 is a cleaner/penetrating type of product. It is not a lubricant.

 

[jetcone]

Yes thats the right part for the tub seal

Your old seal has collapsed as they do,the rubber gets hard and the internal spring no longer can push up so as the Jetcone comes down WHAM it causes the seal to jump off the bronze ring under the tub for a second and water gets in down the shaft.
That leak will do a real number on a 1-18!!

ALWAYS ALWAYS REPLACE THE OIL BELLOWS! That advice you got is totally WRONG!
The factory tried this for ONE year to cut corners in production>>>>>>>>> and it was a resounding disaster for the mechanism. Whoever gave you that advice has the one wrong manual Frigdaire produced in their possession!

You will have to dig around for an oil seal from an old dealer or a used machine.
The tub seals are still available from FRIGIDAIRE direct or your Repair Clinic for the same price.

 

[goprog]

Jetcone

Thanks. I'll order the tub seal today. Have found the
oil bellows a couple places and will order that too.

 

[angus]

Jon- just out of curiosity, for which year did Frigidaire dispense with the oil bellows?

 

[jetcone]

Anthony

Its been years since I read all this but I think it was the 1974-5 model year. I know it was after the S-T line disaster but before the 1977 change to venting the bellows.

Now that I think about it, it seems to me it was the 1974 line I think. I'll try and dig out the TechTalk telling techs to install an oil bellows in these machines whenever they opened one up.

I opened up one or two of these machines and boy a pinhole leak in the water bellows meant you were not getting the tub out ever! I had a machine hanging from a winch on the ceiling of my basement once, two guys yanking and hitting with a 5 pound hammer and we couldn't get that tub off the spin shaft. I had to junk the whole machine.

 

[goprog]

Jetecone

What was venting the bellows about?

 

[goprog]

Tub seal, oil bellows, and spin roller ordered.

 

[jetcone]

They changed the air venting several times over the

1970's. All machines vented the bellows air down past the spin shaft but the hole arrangement was changed so you have to be sure when pulling and replacing the transmission that you have the correct support bracket and matching gasket so that the air holes line up down through the tub.

You won't need to worry about that you are not replacing the transmission. But if you agitate the machine and listen under the cabinet you can hear the bellows venting.

 

[goprog]

Okay. So the venting probably relates to my theoretical
question about 10 posts above? I don't see any holes
that would allow venting. Serial no. is 71EE 6328. Does
that mean 1971 - before there was venting? Could that
make it more susceptible to bellows failure with no
pressure/suction relief between the two bellows?

 

[roto204]

S-T line disaster

What was the S-T line disaster all about, Jon?

 

[jetcone]

Goprog

all 1=18's were vented, just vented differently.

Nate: The S-T disaster was a big wash out for Frigidaire.

S-T were the first two model years off the 1-18 assembly line. On those machines they swapped out the aluminum drive roller on the motor shaft for a cast iron one.
This caused the spin idler roller to develop lumping around its surface because the iron was much harder than the aluminum against the polyurethane roller material.
This caused machines to thump hump and bump and roll away the contact surface to the point they would not spin.

To replace this driver you have to almost put a new motor in because it was pressed onto the drive motor shaft and if it got corroded. Well bye bye motor.
Most of these failed within the warranty period.
Next the Sub tops had a flaw that caused the lint filter "bed of nails" to wear down and caused the lint filter to come flying out just at the end of the wash spin cycle and when the machine hit Rinse well with 330 Strokes/minute that chewed up your Jetcone real good.
Next on the S-T line they used Stainless Steel clips to hold the sub top down on the outer tub. Normally this would be a good thing but not in this application. Steel makes a better spring than SSteel.

Once a service man opened the subtop, the clips would not go back on the subtop. So if the guy had no extras then its a trip back to the shop and "Jallah-Sue Customer" would be furious her machine was not working. The problem was so bad some machines would go back togther and then on the spin the 1-18 throws alot of water up to this joint before the drain pump can pull down on the water level so it was always at that point the subtop would flip off somewhere and skiens of water would come rushing over the top down inside the machine and you know what that would do to those rollers you aren't supposed to lubricate!!

Between the lint filters flying out and the subtops flying off they had to completely redesign the subtop assembly for the 1974 line. And make a retro fit kit for all the S-T machines.
Those early 1-18's had a horrible track record and don't get me started on the dryers!

I had more than one subtop fly off with skiens of water around my knees!

Jet

 

[goprog]

Okay.

Since it hasn't been verified, I'm going to ASSUME my
serial no. 71EE-6328 is a 1971 machine, ergo an S-T model
(again assuming first two years were 70-71 since I haven't
seen anything that says differently.)

What was the "fix" for the drive motor when it failed within
the warranty period (or after)? I don't see what I would call
a driver pressed onto the motor shaft. There is a separate
shaft driven by a belt off the motor that I would call a
driver - and the lower part of that shaft (that drives the
spin roller) I would say is iron vs. aluminum. Should I be
expecting a problem after 30-some years???? Of course, if
those assumptions above are wrong...

I don't see what I would call vents for the bellows - unless
they are under the bottom part of the tub seal so they can't
be seen with the seal in. Not planning on removing it until
the new one gets here to be sure they are the same in case
I have to use what I've got.

And I can't say what happened in its life before 1986 when
we bought the house it was in, but I've had the subtop off
a number of times and used the same clips to put it back on.

The bed-o-nails lint filter DID come out numerous times. I
tried using J-B Weld, etc, on the rail and filter to make it
more secure (parts had worn down) since the place I normally
got repair parts said they were NLA. But eventually bought
replacements for both when I found them a few years later
on Repair Clinic.

 

[jetcone]

Yes Goprog

If it is an S or T model it will say that in the model number , something like WC-T or WS.

If there is no S or T you are beyond that. But I don't think many S or T's would have survived this far without a retro fit.

Sorry for the confusion,yes you are right the driver I am talking about is mounted on the drive shaft which is connected to the motor shaft by a belt and two pulleys. And the bottom end drives the pump.
The smaller of the drive rollers is the spin drive, it should not look red or rusty or darker than the upper aluminum wash drive roller.
But don't mistake darker for old polyurethane that has worn off onto the driver and darkend it that happens normally over time on the aluminum drivers.

If your machine was used by the prior owners then you should be able to feel the lumps across the surface of the spin idler roller, in many cases you can see the lumpiness of the roller.
If not then you have an aluminum driver there and good for you.

 

[goprog]

So the 71EE doesn't mean anything as far as the year or were
the S-T before 71?

Yes, the lower, smaller driver is for the spin, but it does
look darker than the upper portion which looks like regular
aluminum. But the spin roller itself looks darker than the
agitate roller so maybe it has worn off as you say - more
on the smaller part of the shaft than the upper part?

Oh yes, this machine has been used - by the previous owners
and by us for the last 20 years - as I said 3-5 times a day
for a number of years until a couple years ago. No sign of
real lumpiness. Perhaps it is just the darker polyurethane
that has come off on the smaller part of the driver. In
any case, glad I have a new roller coming.

"To replace this driver you have to almost put a new motor in because it was pressed onto the drive motor shaft and if it got corroded. Well bye bye motor."

Don't understand that comment as far as "bye bye motor" since
the driver shaft is separate. Or are you meaning bye bye
pump?

But since mine is WIC-A, I suppose none of this should
probably mean much to me other than educational
enlightenment (which is always good anyway in my view.)

 

[goprog]

Opinions?

Tub seal arrived today, but the oil bellows didn't - hope that
is being shipped separately.

Removed the old seals - upper part of seal looks the most
worn compared to the new one, worn down so far it was getting
wavy. And don't know if I did it when I pulled the lower seal,
but once I got it out I saw a crack in the hard/Teflon portion.

Took out the big washer beneath it and saw the vents Jon was
talking about. Can hardly see them, but can feel them - they
are on the outside of the tub seal area (not the tub seal
itself) around the edge and very thin. Think of four dimes
bent slightly to form a circle (half circle actually) and
being half as thick as they are. The vents are that small
and "long" around the edge.

The question is:

I saw slight surface rust (can be rubbed off) on just a
portion of the bottom side of the big washer and the top
of the bearing (wiped it off). Bearing/shaft seems tight.

Should I do anything? Couple drops of oil, light spray
grease - foaming motorcycle chain oil/grease, or just
leave it and put the seal in? Will trying to add oil
or grease make it worse? Is there normally a lubricant
in there?