I"ve had "modern" front loader without (first) and with heater (subsequent 2). And I don't want to go back to the dark ages.
Speed Queen Front Load With Heater?
- Thread starter Chetlaham
- Start date
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I know what it’s like having a machine without a heater
But the good thing is the machine does use a lot of hot water and so it’ll basically be about 50° once it reaches the machine, do you have a machine that I have they do have heaters are European machines and I only have one front loader with a built-in heater
But the good thing is the machine does use a lot of hot water and so it’ll basically be about 50° once it reaches the machine, do you have a machine that I have they do have heaters are European machines and I only have one front loader with a built-in heater
208-240v
Panethera, You're right. Though there is hope. Code requires that each laundry area have a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp circuit for the washer. Often times this circuit has no other receptacles but the one for the washer itself. It wouldn't be all that impractical to begin converting over to 208-240v. I think it needs to happen if we are to save water and energy. Given that the world will one day be all electric, I think this is inevitable.
@appnut: Much so, sadly. Americans need to broaden their horizon and accept that heaters along with extended wash times in a front load washer are better over all for both clothing and the environment.
Panethera, You're right. Though there is hope. Code requires that each laundry area have a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp circuit for the washer. Often times this circuit has no other receptacles but the one for the washer itself. It wouldn't be all that impractical to begin converting over to 208-240v. I think it needs to happen if we are to save water and energy. Given that the world will one day be all electric, I think this is inevitable.
@appnut: Much so, sadly. Americans need to broaden their horizon and accept that heaters along with extended wash times in a front load washer are better over all for both clothing and the environment.
iiijohnnymaciii
Well-known member
Whirlpool FL TOL energy usage is 159 kWH vs most manufacturers with heated FL that are in the 100-110 kWH range. I could be wrong, but I’m assuming this difference is either a more powerful heater or a less efficient one. Either way, I’m thinking the 120 volt outlets are not being maxed by the heaters in most brands as they seem to have some more room for more powerful heaters if they wanted to.
launderess
Well-known member
120v x 15amps gives about 1800 watts draw. Current code IIRC calls for not drawing more than 80% (more or less) of max so now things are down to about 1440 to 1500.
Sudden burst of high wattage use such as AC, fridge or other motors most circuits can withstand.
Thus most washers with heaters sold in USA for domestic use are at 1kva to 1.3kva or bit higher. To get slightly more power would require going to a 20amp circuit on 120v.
On the other hand many front loaders today are rather stingy with water, especially on wash cycles that require heater. Less water means less energy required for heating.
None of this even touches fact not all front loaders will reach set temp for wash cycle anyway.
Sudden burst of high wattage use such as AC, fridge or other motors most circuits can withstand.
Thus most washers with heaters sold in USA for domestic use are at 1kva to 1.3kva or bit higher. To get slightly more power would require going to a 20amp circuit on 120v.
On the other hand many front loaders today are rather stingy with water, especially on wash cycles that require heater. Less water means less energy required for heating.
None of this even touches fact not all front loaders will reach set temp for wash cycle anyway.
John, the reason why the WP FL has rating of 159 KWH is because of software programming. Coincidentally my old Duet also had a similar KWH rating all the way back to 2011. First of all, on the Duet most common cycles had the heater automatically maintain and boost wash water temperatures. I suspect the current WP & Maytag still have the same appropach. Cycles that did automatically have th heater come on was Bulky, Whites, Heavy Duty, Sanitize. Normal and Delicate the heater didn't come on. Currently, the heaeter may come on at highest soil levels for Wrinkle Free, but I don't know for sure. Also, the Duet heated warm water between 95 & 100F. Hot wash was 125F-127F. Allergene was between 131F & 133F. Contrast those temps with my LG. The heater will come on to reach target temp and once that is reaached, the heateer turns off and doesn't come back on. Those cycles are Whites, Bulky, Towels, and Perm Press. For warm target temp ranges from 89F to 94F. Hot ranges from 104F to 112F. For Normal & Heavy Duty cycles, the heater does not come on at all for warm or hot water temps. (by design). Whatevr the temperature is once fill is complete is what the wash water temps is and begins to decline from there. For these two cycles, if Extra Hot is selected, there's no specific target temp except highest temp before heater turns of is 158F (allergene is 161F-163F). As I've said before, 90F classified as warm is marginal at best. The thought of "hot" being 112 is abysmal and disgusting. With button pushing, I am thankful I can reach temperatures I find acceptable for warm or hot.
Code legally lets you draw 100% of the circuit. The 80% rule on applies to items that will run for more than 3 hours without cycling on/off and a select few items specifically listed in the code like water heaters. Other than that an 1,800 watt hair dryers and 1,800 watt toaster ovens, panini presses, ect are both safe and legal.
The intent of the 80% rule is to reduce the probability of nuisance tripping due to heat build up in panel-boards which could shift a breaker's time current curve below the breaker's rating. The wire itself can handle its rated current and then some continuously without even getting warm to the touch. Modern wire insulation is good for 90*C and device terminals at least 60*C.
But your still right. At 1,800 watts heating will take much longer than at 3,600 watts. Boil wash won't take place without a long thermal hold that most people will not want to wait for. On the other hand detergent works better with longer wash times.
The intent of the 80% rule is to reduce the probability of nuisance tripping due to heat build up in panel-boards which could shift a breaker's time current curve below the breaker's rating. The wire itself can handle its rated current and then some continuously without even getting warm to the touch. Modern wire insulation is good for 90*C and device terminals at least 60*C.
But your still right. At 1,800 watts heating will take much longer than at 3,600 watts. Boil wash won't take place without a long thermal hold that most people will not want to wait for. On the other hand detergent works better with longer wash times.
mieleforme2
New member
I would not have a washer without an internal heater. It makes all the difference in the world.
Front load washers with resistance electric heating
These can make a little bit of sense from a sufficiency basis if you have a resistance electric water heater and that’s all that you can have in your home.
I have a 17-year-old Speed Queen front load washer with a heater, it probably has been used 20 times in 17 years.
I have a KitchenAid pro line frontload washer with a heater as well I’ve probably used it six times, I also have a new stainless steel Speed Queen frontload washer without a heater it’s the best of the three of those machines at cleaning.
I work as a technician I get very dirty every item of clothing Hass to be changed every day I have no problem getting large loads of dirty clothes clean without a heater, a wash temperature of around 120° works very well bleach is used for white loads and very dirty like things to sanitize.
For me and many people using the heater is just a large waste of electricity.
Over half the front load washers I work on have a heater option 90% of customers tell me they never use it or only tried it a couple times.
The 17 year old Speed Queen I have can heat the water to about 150°, the KitchenAid pro line also heats the water quite hot if desired but I’ve never seen any difference in cleaning a quarter cup of bleach does much more.
John L
These can make a little bit of sense from a sufficiency basis if you have a resistance electric water heater and that’s all that you can have in your home.
I have a 17-year-old Speed Queen front load washer with a heater, it probably has been used 20 times in 17 years.
I have a KitchenAid pro line frontload washer with a heater as well I’ve probably used it six times, I also have a new stainless steel Speed Queen frontload washer without a heater it’s the best of the three of those machines at cleaning.
I work as a technician I get very dirty every item of clothing Hass to be changed every day I have no problem getting large loads of dirty clothes clean without a heater, a wash temperature of around 120° works very well bleach is used for white loads and very dirty like things to sanitize.
For me and many people using the heater is just a large waste of electricity.
Over half the front load washers I work on have a heater option 90% of customers tell me they never use it or only tried it a couple times.
The 17 year old Speed Queen I have can heat the water to about 150°, the KitchenAid pro line also heats the water quite hot if desired but I’ve never seen any difference in cleaning a quarter cup of bleach does much more.
John L
pinkpower4
Well-known member
More concentrated?
I have top loads.
My water heater is set at 120. I use warm for almost all loads and hot for whites.
John L.'s post made me think. Was it really the heat option on the LG that reduced the mildew and pet odor smell or something else? Both of my top loads have a really good wash action, use the proper temperature (no adding cold when hot is chosen), and have plenty of water. This along with a quality detergent has worked for our needs for the most part. I've only had a few cases where something with a mildew or pet smell lingered.
With my LG front load, I didn't use more than the recommended amounts of anything. I have two options. Turn up the heat or possibly use an enzyme product.
So I have this one article of clothing that I really want the pet smell out. I read the instructions on OdoBan a little closer. It looks like it requires 32 ounces per gallon of water to remove pet odor. So I have filled up the washer with just enough water to cover the item and added a lot more of the OdoBan and will let it soak. But whatever is used also needs to kill the odor causing bacteria too. It was really expensive to use the recommended amount of the product I have, so I be curious is there is a more concentrated option. This is where the hotter temperature might come into play. While this was just one article sometimes it can be a whole load full of stuff that requires some extra product.
Is there an enzyme cleaner that is more concentrated to work in top loads?
I have top loads.
My water heater is set at 120. I use warm for almost all loads and hot for whites.
John L.'s post made me think. Was it really the heat option on the LG that reduced the mildew and pet odor smell or something else? Both of my top loads have a really good wash action, use the proper temperature (no adding cold when hot is chosen), and have plenty of water. This along with a quality detergent has worked for our needs for the most part. I've only had a few cases where something with a mildew or pet smell lingered.
With my LG front load, I didn't use more than the recommended amounts of anything. I have two options. Turn up the heat or possibly use an enzyme product.
So I have this one article of clothing that I really want the pet smell out. I read the instructions on OdoBan a little closer. It looks like it requires 32 ounces per gallon of water to remove pet odor. So I have filled up the washer with just enough water to cover the item and added a lot more of the OdoBan and will let it soak. But whatever is used also needs to kill the odor causing bacteria too. It was really expensive to use the recommended amount of the product I have, so I be curious is there is a more concentrated option. This is where the hotter temperature might come into play. While this was just one article sometimes it can be a whole load full of stuff that requires some extra product.
Is there an enzyme cleaner that is more concentrated to work in top loads?
Water Heater
The advantage to heating in a front load is two fold.
1) The water is heated in real time and only the amount being used. Vs keeping 40 gallons of water hot 24/7. In addition to partly filling with cold water, then having several gallons of heated water cool of in the piping afterwords.
2) Starting cold and gradually heating the water lets detergent do its work, in steps, for best soil removal.
The best approach IMO is to fill with cold water, and start tumbling while the heater runs until the desired temp is reached.
The advantage to heating in a front load is two fold.
1) The water is heated in real time and only the amount being used. Vs keeping 40 gallons of water hot 24/7. In addition to partly filling with cold water, then having several gallons of heated water cool of in the piping afterwords.
2) Starting cold and gradually heating the water lets detergent do its work, in steps, for best soil removal.
The best approach IMO is to fill with cold water, and start tumbling while the heater runs until the desired temp is reached.
What about the other way around? Such as washing machines
That would have a thermostat that once the water has heated it would start tumbling, what about that?
That would have a thermostat that once the water has heated it would start tumbling, what about that?
ozzie908
Well-known member
Static heating
In front loaders was quite common on early models, Indesit L5 would fill tumble and when the heat phase started it would wait until it reached the set temperature, it also if on a hot cycle would leave the heater on whilst tumbling going way past the desired setting if you turned the dial around to the start of the wash section you could get it to actually boil whilst tumbling...
In front loaders was quite common on early models, Indesit L5 would fill tumble and when the heat phase started it would wait until it reached the set temperature, it also if on a hot cycle would leave the heater on whilst tumbling going way past the desired setting if you turned the dial around to the start of the wash section you could get it to actually boil whilst tumbling...
Tumbling would start after the water is hot, not enough time to let the detergent shine on the cold side of things. EU detergent works in stages as the temperature rises.
Personally I think the industry needs to move away from thermostatic interlocks in wet appliances and just let the heater run for the duration of the cycle with only a stat in series with the heater acting as an upper limit (180*F). Build the temps into the cycles themselves via the time spent washing.
Personally I think the industry needs to move away from thermostatic interlocks in wet appliances and just let the heater run for the duration of the cycle with only a stat in series with the heater acting as an upper limit (180*F). Build the temps into the cycles themselves via the time spent washing.
pinkpower4
Well-known member
Update to Reply #29 for Top Load Owners & Idea for FL?
For top load owners...
The OdoBan (or something similar) used per instructions (key is to soak in as little water as possible to allow for the concentration of solution as recommended), machine wash as usual, and use the anti-bacterial cycle on a dryer (extended heated dry) seemed to have finally done the trick for that pesky item. The anti-bacterial, if available, dryer cycle may not be an option for some items. Also, it did not seem to work on its own before trying more concentrated enzyme solution.
BTW, I keep wondering how they got the TC5 in this video (link included) to operate with so little water? The cycle I needed extra hot water for is usually a small load of whites. I waste water and chemicals washing this even as a half load.
The TC5 "normal eco" along with the "Heavy Soil" option is a very long soak/wash cycle and seems to use tap hot. Wonder if that is similar the the sani-cycles on other machines without internal heaters?
With that said, I do believe front load washers can even use less water and more efficiently to clean clothes because of the tumble wash action. It may be an especially good idea to run some tap hot near the washer machine location before using, so it fills with tap hot. For those few loads where no internal heater is present, I wonder if one could add some heated water before adding clothes and letting the washer fill? I have a gas stove. Obviously a little more of a scald risk than just making dinner, but...I don't have that many loads that need the internal heater either if it meant a better quality washer or a significant savings. With that said, the TC5 will probably last longer than a front load in the same price range(bought before price went up) and basic model means easier and possibly less costly for me to repair. However, you will also spend more on water and detergents (and other additives too) for top loads. It may be a "wash" there when comparing that to a FL LOL.
Any front load sold should use tap hot when hot is chosen. Any temp sensing should just be used to ensure that warm is warm and cool is warm enough to dissolve detergents. I also think the same should apply to top loads. Instead of crippling products, it is just better to educate people on how to use them which in turn will reduce the energy use. I highly recommend a spin dryer to reduce line or machine dry time.
For top load owners...
The OdoBan (or something similar) used per instructions (key is to soak in as little water as possible to allow for the concentration of solution as recommended), machine wash as usual, and use the anti-bacterial cycle on a dryer (extended heated dry) seemed to have finally done the trick for that pesky item. The anti-bacterial, if available, dryer cycle may not be an option for some items. Also, it did not seem to work on its own before trying more concentrated enzyme solution.
BTW, I keep wondering how they got the TC5 in this video (link included) to operate with so little water? The cycle I needed extra hot water for is usually a small load of whites. I waste water and chemicals washing this even as a half load.
The TC5 "normal eco" along with the "Heavy Soil" option is a very long soak/wash cycle and seems to use tap hot. Wonder if that is similar the the sani-cycles on other machines without internal heaters?
With that said, I do believe front load washers can even use less water and more efficiently to clean clothes because of the tumble wash action. It may be an especially good idea to run some tap hot near the washer machine location before using, so it fills with tap hot. For those few loads where no internal heater is present, I wonder if one could add some heated water before adding clothes and letting the washer fill? I have a gas stove. Obviously a little more of a scald risk than just making dinner, but...I don't have that many loads that need the internal heater either if it meant a better quality washer or a significant savings. With that said, the TC5 will probably last longer than a front load in the same price range(bought before price went up) and basic model means easier and possibly less costly for me to repair. However, you will also spend more on water and detergents (and other additives too) for top loads. It may be a "wash" there when comparing that to a FL LOL.
Any front load sold should use tap hot when hot is chosen. Any temp sensing should just be used to ensure that warm is warm and cool is warm enough to dissolve detergents. I also think the same should apply to top loads. Instead of crippling products, it is just better to educate people on how to use them which in turn will reduce the energy use. I highly recommend a spin dryer to reduce line or machine dry time.
<blockquote>PinkPower4: Instead of crippling products, it is just better to educate people on how to use them which in turn will reduce the energy use.</blockquote> The typical consumer doesn't want education. He/She wants to mindlessly toss-in the load with a premeasured pod, press one button (too many options!!!) and be done with it.
Regards to the TC5 in the video, the woman is a repair tech and likely can find a way to test-run it with minimal water.
"For those few loads where no internal heater is present, I wonder if one could add some heated water before adding clothes and letting the washer fill? "
During really cold weather and our FL SQ is chilly (sits against an outside wall),
I have filled it with HOT but empty and no detergent, let it run five minutes, and then canceled the cycle so it all drains out. This is what I call a pre-heat measure. I always prime the HOT water pipes in the laundry room sink, but the washer interior is quite cold and laundry room temp is under 68F, so that HOT water is chilled down rather quickly.
Once a week for whites, for a couple of months, is not wasting as much water as our old TL ful-fill water hog did for every single load of wash.
During really cold weather and our FL SQ is chilly (sits against an outside wall),
I have filled it with HOT but empty and no detergent, let it run five minutes, and then canceled the cycle so it all drains out. This is what I call a pre-heat measure. I always prime the HOT water pipes in the laundry room sink, but the washer interior is quite cold and laundry room temp is under 68F, so that HOT water is chilled down rather quickly.
Once a week for whites, for a couple of months, is not wasting as much water as our old TL ful-fill water hog did for every single load of wash.
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