jessed
Well-known member
I have been reading some older discussions about adding STPP to laundry detergent to make up for the missing phosphates. I was wondering how well it helps and where I could get some and also how it affects the clothes.
STPP for the washer
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Out of curiosity what are you using for detergent(s)?
I've been adding STPP for upwards of 8 years. Several online sources are available, including ChemistryStore.com and sellers via Amazon and eBay.
jessed
Well-known member
I use Tide powder original or mountain spring.
The latest Tide powder is pretty good stuff. Unless you are not getting various stains, esp stuff like ground in garden dirt, out of clothing, you might not need STPP added. And, I'm a big fan of STPP, but have found the Tide powder I bought in the last year or two works well enough without it. Thus I haven't yet resorted to amending the powder with STPP. However in the past I've amended another powder, Sears Ultra Plus HE, with about 30% by weight STPP. That worked fairly well, but the finished laundry tended to be not as soft as with just Tide powder alone.
It's up to you. If you have very hard water, then STPP may help considerably to prevent the redeposition of precipitated calcium and magnesium carbonates onto not only your laundry, but also on internal washer parts. Again, from the way it performs, I'm guessing the chemists at Tide have figured out how to minimize this without needing STPP. On the other hand, the municipal tap water here is moderately soft (2-5 grains) so this isn't as big a problem here as it might be at some place running on well water.
It's up to you. If you have very hard water, then STPP may help considerably to prevent the redeposition of precipitated calcium and magnesium carbonates onto not only your laundry, but also on internal washer parts. Again, from the way it performs, I'm guessing the chemists at Tide have figured out how to minimize this without needing STPP. On the other hand, the municipal tap water here is moderately soft (2-5 grains) so this isn't as big a problem here as it might be at some place running on well water.
arbilab
Well-known member
Our water is hard enough to deposit a grey mineral ring at the toilet bowl waterline in a week. I find that generous use of Tide powder plus ~tbsp STPP functions as fabric softener without the glop of the bottled stuff, waterproof towels, etc.
I've bought STPP from Chemistry store also. I have mechanically softened water so I have generally used very little of it. It seems to help more in the dishwasher then the laundry. You are using a good detergent, but it might be worth experimenting with especially if your water is hard.
I should hasten to add that STPP can function not only to prevent the deposition of hard water mineral precipitates on clothes and washer internals, but also to help break away and hold in suspension many of the same hard water minerals that are integral to soil on fabrics - you know, stuff like garden dirt. And perhaps also mineral based industrial or automotive grease. It does this better than any other single laundry additive.
However since the banning of phosphates in many products in many states and countries, the laundry detergent mfgs have devised various work arounds. IMHO, the early ones, which relied heavily on sodium carbonate, which can leave a mess when combined with hard water, didn't clean so good. It's my impression (not based on any insider knowledge) that mfgs like Persil and Tide have figured out how to get good results without phosphate. At least with their powders. I still don't think there's any liquids out there that can handle really filthy laundry as well as the top powders.
The replacments for phosphates include such oddities as zeolites (basically, aluminum silicates that capture some but not all hard water minerals in their nooks and crannies, or odd sounding organic chemicals like TAENF whatever that is. Zeolites do a good job with calcium ions but not so good with magnesium and other hard water minerals. And so on ad nauseum.
A while back I devised a home test for demonstrating part of the hard water mineral problem. In one jar I'd put some well water (we have soft muni tap water, but the well is for irrigation) and some standard laundry detergent. In another, some STPP. Shake them up, when the suds subside, you can actually see the flakes of precipitated out calcium and magnesium carbonate in the standard detergent jar, but the jar with STPP would remain crystal clear. And yes, the ppt looks like lint, but it's not so nice to have on finished laundry and it can put a layer of something akin to concrete inside the washer.
However since the banning of phosphates in many products in many states and countries, the laundry detergent mfgs have devised various work arounds. IMHO, the early ones, which relied heavily on sodium carbonate, which can leave a mess when combined with hard water, didn't clean so good. It's my impression (not based on any insider knowledge) that mfgs like Persil and Tide have figured out how to get good results without phosphate. At least with their powders. I still don't think there's any liquids out there that can handle really filthy laundry as well as the top powders.
The replacments for phosphates include such oddities as zeolites (basically, aluminum silicates that capture some but not all hard water minerals in their nooks and crannies, or odd sounding organic chemicals like TAENF whatever that is. Zeolites do a good job with calcium ions but not so good with magnesium and other hard water minerals. And so on ad nauseum.
A while back I devised a home test for demonstrating part of the hard water mineral problem. In one jar I'd put some well water (we have soft muni tap water, but the well is for irrigation) and some standard laundry detergent. In another, some STPP. Shake them up, when the suds subside, you can actually see the flakes of precipitated out calcium and magnesium carbonate in the standard detergent jar, but the jar with STPP would remain crystal clear. And yes, the ppt looks like lint, but it's not so nice to have on finished laundry and it can put a layer of something akin to concrete inside the washer.
jessed
Well-known member
Since I am trying to clean dirt from a farm so I think it will defiantly help.
Yes it will help with farm dirt, especially if you have clay dirt.
Before
You spend a lot of money on STTP try a small box of TSP. If it works well, STTP will be worth the money.
You spend a lot of money on STTP try a small box of TSP. If it works well, STTP will be worth the money.
Used to be you could pick up a box of Calgon or White King laundry booster in the supermarket and get STPP that way.
Also
Worth noting, regardless of whether my autocorrect is saying STPP or STTP,STPP turns into TSP really fast no matter how well you store it.
Most people who think they're using STPP are really using a mixture of the two and quite happy with it. Buy the smallest amount you can.use it soon.
Worth noting, regardless of whether my autocorrect is saying STPP or STTP,STPP turns into TSP really fast no matter how well you store it.
Most people who think they're using STPP are really using a mixture of the two and quite happy with it. Buy the smallest amount you can.use it soon.
mamapinky
Well-known member
tsp
I thought it was unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp?
I thought it was unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp?
STPP turns into TSP really fast
Not really. It has to be damp and subjected to elevated temps.
However it's a good point to remember. Part of the power of STPP is that it carries a fair amount of chemical energy. It's this energy that enabled it to latch onto hard water minerals and hold them in suspension. As with most things, entropy is always increasing, which means systems tend to migrate from higher energy states to lower energy states. With STPP that means some of the polyphosphate structure can degrade to bi- and mono- phosphate. TSP is the mono-phosphate version.
I have some STPP I've stored in the original sacks, kept in water resistant plastic tubs for over 10 years. Might be time to do another shaken pickle jar with well water test
Not really. It has to be damp and subjected to elevated temps.
However it's a good point to remember. Part of the power of STPP is that it carries a fair amount of chemical energy. It's this energy that enabled it to latch onto hard water minerals and hold them in suspension. As with most things, entropy is always increasing, which means systems tend to migrate from higher energy states to lower energy states. With STPP that means some of the polyphosphate structure can degrade to bi- and mono- phosphate. TSP is the mono-phosphate version.
I have some STPP I've stored in the original sacks, kept in water resistant plastic tubs for over 10 years. Might be time to do another shaken pickle jar with well water test
unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp
I don't see why it would be, other than dumping phosphate into the waste stream with decreased benefit.
TSP is a milder alkali than the main ingredient in most laundry and dishwasher powders, sodium carbonate. So on that score it's more gentle than the main alkali in store bought. However, because it's a mono-phosphate, it won't keep hard water and soil minerals from precipitating out on fabrics and washer parts, same as sodium carbonate. In other words, it's no worse than unboosted store bought detergent, but not much better.
I don't see why it would be, other than dumping phosphate into the waste stream with decreased benefit.
TSP is a milder alkali than the main ingredient in most laundry and dishwasher powders, sodium carbonate. So on that score it's more gentle than the main alkali in store bought. However, because it's a mono-phosphate, it won't keep hard water and soil minerals from precipitating out on fabrics and washer parts, same as sodium carbonate. In other words, it's no worse than unboosted store bought detergent, but not much better.
TSP
Definitely does not harm to either clothes or water.
I've never had the precipitate problem with it, and when a glass of our water falls it's an open question what breaks first, the glass or the water.
That said, there's different mineral situations in each location so I don't exclude the possibility.
As to cleaning, I must disagree - it does an outstandingly better job of grease and dirt removal and enzymatic detergents clean far, far better with it than without.
As to STPP, I doubt most people who use it realize how quickly it degrades, so, yeah - most folks using "STPP" unless its fresh aren't.
I still say - try the TSP. If it makes a big difference, invest in STPP. If it doesn't, STPP won't, either.
Definitely does not harm to either clothes or water.
I've never had the precipitate problem with it, and when a glass of our water falls it's an open question what breaks first, the glass or the water.
That said, there's different mineral situations in each location so I don't exclude the possibility.
As to cleaning, I must disagree - it does an outstandingly better job of grease and dirt removal and enzymatic detergents clean far, far better with it than without.
As to STPP, I doubt most people who use it realize how quickly it degrades, so, yeah - most folks using "STPP" unless its fresh aren't.
I still say - try the TSP. If it makes a big difference, invest in STPP. If it doesn't, STPP won't, either.
I doubt that TSP would be a good indicator of how well STPP would boost laundry detergent, because it lacks the chelating ability of STPP that makes STPP so useful. Without that chelating ability one might just as well dump in more sodium carbonate (washing soda) instead.
As for STPP losing its special ability over time... I wonder if anyone has actual test data, or a literature reference, to back up the claim that it degrades rapidly even when kept dry and cool.
Data should include storage conditions, including temperature and humidity, length of storage, and any quantified loss of chelating ability over time.
Otherwise one might be tempted to dismiss such claims as unsubstantiated rumor.
As for STPP losing its special ability over time... I wonder if anyone has actual test data, or a literature reference, to back up the claim that it degrades rapidly even when kept dry and cool.
Data should include storage conditions, including temperature and humidity, length of storage, and any quantified loss of chelating ability over time.
Otherwise one might be tempted to dismiss such claims as unsubstantiated rumor.
Interesting subject
There must have been a reason for the use of STPP by detergent manufactures vs using TSP. I know that TSP is more alkaline than STPP . Maybe TSP cleans better for wall washing...paint prep. TSP will cut through grease and etch into old paint making new paint adhere. (Needs to be rinsed, and ware gloves, made that mistake once)
But wait..why would that be good for laundry or fabric.
If TSP does not suspend hard water, or form a complex with hard water ions...Then why use it in laundry?
There must have been a reason for the use of STPP by detergent manufactures vs using TSP. I know that TSP is more alkaline than STPP . Maybe TSP cleans better for wall washing...paint prep. TSP will cut through grease and etch into old paint making new paint adhere. (Needs to be rinsed, and ware gloves, made that mistake once)
But wait..why would that be good for laundry or fabric.
If TSP does not suspend hard water, or form a complex with hard water ions...Then why use it in laundry?
