jessed
Well-known member
I have been reading some older discussions about adding STPP to laundry detergent to make up for the missing phosphates. I was wondering how well it helps and where I could get some and also how it affects the clothes.
STPP for the washer
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kb0nes
Well-known member
Out of curiosity what are you using for detergent(s)?
I've been adding STPP for upwards of 8 years. Several online sources are available, including ChemistryStore.com and sellers via Amazon and eBay.
jessed
Well-known member
I use Tide powder original or mountain spring.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
The latest Tide powder is pretty good stuff. Unless you are not getting various stains, esp stuff like ground in garden dirt, out of clothing, you might not need STPP added. And, I'm a big fan of STPP, but have found the Tide powder I bought in the last year or two works well enough without it. Thus I haven't yet resorted to amending the powder with STPP. However in the past I've amended another powder, Sears Ultra Plus HE, with about 30% by weight STPP. That worked fairly well, but the finished laundry tended to be not as soft as with just Tide powder alone.
It's up to you. If you have very hard water, then STPP may help considerably to prevent the redeposition of precipitated calcium and magnesium carbonates onto not only your laundry, but also on internal washer parts. Again, from the way it performs, I'm guessing the chemists at Tide have figured out how to minimize this without needing STPP. On the other hand, the municipal tap water here is moderately soft (2-5 grains) so this isn't as big a problem here as it might be at some place running on well water.
It's up to you. If you have very hard water, then STPP may help considerably to prevent the redeposition of precipitated calcium and magnesium carbonates onto not only your laundry, but also on internal washer parts. Again, from the way it performs, I'm guessing the chemists at Tide have figured out how to minimize this without needing STPP. On the other hand, the municipal tap water here is moderately soft (2-5 grains) so this isn't as big a problem here as it might be at some place running on well water.
arbilab
Well-known member
Our water is hard enough to deposit a grey mineral ring at the toilet bowl waterline in a week. I find that generous use of Tide powder plus ~tbsp STPP functions as fabric softener without the glop of the bottled stuff, waterproof towels, etc.
kb0nes
Well-known member
I've bought STPP from Chemistry store also. I have mechanically softened water so I have generally used very little of it. It seems to help more in the dishwasher then the laundry. You are using a good detergent, but it might be worth experimenting with especially if your water is hard.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I should hasten to add that STPP can function not only to prevent the deposition of hard water mineral precipitates on clothes and washer internals, but also to help break away and hold in suspension many of the same hard water minerals that are integral to soil on fabrics - you know, stuff like garden dirt. And perhaps also mineral based industrial or automotive grease. It does this better than any other single laundry additive.
However since the banning of phosphates in many products in many states and countries, the laundry detergent mfgs have devised various work arounds. IMHO, the early ones, which relied heavily on sodium carbonate, which can leave a mess when combined with hard water, didn't clean so good. It's my impression (not based on any insider knowledge) that mfgs like Persil and Tide have figured out how to get good results without phosphate. At least with their powders. I still don't think there's any liquids out there that can handle really filthy laundry as well as the top powders.
The replacments for phosphates include such oddities as zeolites (basically, aluminum silicates that capture some but not all hard water minerals in their nooks and crannies, or odd sounding organic chemicals like TAENF whatever that is. Zeolites do a good job with calcium ions but not so good with magnesium and other hard water minerals. And so on ad nauseum.
A while back I devised a home test for demonstrating part of the hard water mineral problem. In one jar I'd put some well water (we have soft muni tap water, but the well is for irrigation) and some standard laundry detergent. In another, some STPP. Shake them up, when the suds subside, you can actually see the flakes of precipitated out calcium and magnesium carbonate in the standard detergent jar, but the jar with STPP would remain crystal clear. And yes, the ppt looks like lint, but it's not so nice to have on finished laundry and it can put a layer of something akin to concrete inside the washer.
However since the banning of phosphates in many products in many states and countries, the laundry detergent mfgs have devised various work arounds. IMHO, the early ones, which relied heavily on sodium carbonate, which can leave a mess when combined with hard water, didn't clean so good. It's my impression (not based on any insider knowledge) that mfgs like Persil and Tide have figured out how to get good results without phosphate. At least with their powders. I still don't think there's any liquids out there that can handle really filthy laundry as well as the top powders.
The replacments for phosphates include such oddities as zeolites (basically, aluminum silicates that capture some but not all hard water minerals in their nooks and crannies, or odd sounding organic chemicals like TAENF whatever that is. Zeolites do a good job with calcium ions but not so good with magnesium and other hard water minerals. And so on ad nauseum.
A while back I devised a home test for demonstrating part of the hard water mineral problem. In one jar I'd put some well water (we have soft muni tap water, but the well is for irrigation) and some standard laundry detergent. In another, some STPP. Shake them up, when the suds subside, you can actually see the flakes of precipitated out calcium and magnesium carbonate in the standard detergent jar, but the jar with STPP would remain crystal clear. And yes, the ppt looks like lint, but it's not so nice to have on finished laundry and it can put a layer of something akin to concrete inside the washer.
jessed
Well-known member
Since I am trying to clean dirt from a farm so I think it will defiantly help.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Yes it will help with farm dirt, especially if you have clay dirt.
Before
You spend a lot of money on STTP try a small box of TSP. If it works well, STTP will be worth the money.
You spend a lot of money on STTP try a small box of TSP. If it works well, STTP will be worth the money.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Used to be you could pick up a box of Calgon or White King laundry booster in the supermarket and get STPP that way.
Also
Worth noting, regardless of whether my autocorrect is saying STPP or STTP,STPP turns into TSP really fast no matter how well you store it.
Most people who think they're using STPP are really using a mixture of the two and quite happy with it. Buy the smallest amount you can.use it soon.
Worth noting, regardless of whether my autocorrect is saying STPP or STTP,STPP turns into TSP really fast no matter how well you store it.
Most people who think they're using STPP are really using a mixture of the two and quite happy with it. Buy the smallest amount you can.use it soon.
mamapinky
Well-known member
tsp
I thought it was unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp?
I thought it was unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp?
sudsmaster
Well-known member
STPP turns into TSP really fast
Not really. It has to be damp and subjected to elevated temps.
However it's a good point to remember. Part of the power of STPP is that it carries a fair amount of chemical energy. It's this energy that enabled it to latch onto hard water minerals and hold them in suspension. As with most things, entropy is always increasing, which means systems tend to migrate from higher energy states to lower energy states. With STPP that means some of the polyphosphate structure can degrade to bi- and mono- phosphate. TSP is the mono-phosphate version.
I have some STPP I've stored in the original sacks, kept in water resistant plastic tubs for over 10 years. Might be time to do another shaken pickle jar with well water test
Not really. It has to be damp and subjected to elevated temps.
However it's a good point to remember. Part of the power of STPP is that it carries a fair amount of chemical energy. It's this energy that enabled it to latch onto hard water minerals and hold them in suspension. As with most things, entropy is always increasing, which means systems tend to migrate from higher energy states to lower energy states. With STPP that means some of the polyphosphate structure can degrade to bi- and mono- phosphate. TSP is the mono-phosphate version.
I have some STPP I've stored in the original sacks, kept in water resistant plastic tubs for over 10 years. Might be time to do another shaken pickle jar with well water test
sudsmaster
Well-known member
unsafe for washers and textiles to use tsp
I don't see why it would be, other than dumping phosphate into the waste stream with decreased benefit.
TSP is a milder alkali than the main ingredient in most laundry and dishwasher powders, sodium carbonate. So on that score it's more gentle than the main alkali in store bought. However, because it's a mono-phosphate, it won't keep hard water and soil minerals from precipitating out on fabrics and washer parts, same as sodium carbonate. In other words, it's no worse than unboosted store bought detergent, but not much better.
I don't see why it would be, other than dumping phosphate into the waste stream with decreased benefit.
TSP is a milder alkali than the main ingredient in most laundry and dishwasher powders, sodium carbonate. So on that score it's more gentle than the main alkali in store bought. However, because it's a mono-phosphate, it won't keep hard water and soil minerals from precipitating out on fabrics and washer parts, same as sodium carbonate. In other words, it's no worse than unboosted store bought detergent, but not much better.
TSP
Definitely does not harm to either clothes or water.
I've never had the precipitate problem with it, and when a glass of our water falls it's an open question what breaks first, the glass or the water.
That said, there's different mineral situations in each location so I don't exclude the possibility.
As to cleaning, I must disagree - it does an outstandingly better job of grease and dirt removal and enzymatic detergents clean far, far better with it than without.
As to STPP, I doubt most people who use it realize how quickly it degrades, so, yeah - most folks using "STPP" unless its fresh aren't.
I still say - try the TSP. If it makes a big difference, invest in STPP. If it doesn't, STPP won't, either.
Definitely does not harm to either clothes or water.
I've never had the precipitate problem with it, and when a glass of our water falls it's an open question what breaks first, the glass or the water.
That said, there's different mineral situations in each location so I don't exclude the possibility.
As to cleaning, I must disagree - it does an outstandingly better job of grease and dirt removal and enzymatic detergents clean far, far better with it than without.
As to STPP, I doubt most people who use it realize how quickly it degrades, so, yeah - most folks using "STPP" unless its fresh aren't.
I still say - try the TSP. If it makes a big difference, invest in STPP. If it doesn't, STPP won't, either.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I doubt that TSP would be a good indicator of how well STPP would boost laundry detergent, because it lacks the chelating ability of STPP that makes STPP so useful. Without that chelating ability one might just as well dump in more sodium carbonate (washing soda) instead.
As for STPP losing its special ability over time... I wonder if anyone has actual test data, or a literature reference, to back up the claim that it degrades rapidly even when kept dry and cool.
Data should include storage conditions, including temperature and humidity, length of storage, and any quantified loss of chelating ability over time.
Otherwise one might be tempted to dismiss such claims as unsubstantiated rumor.
As for STPP losing its special ability over time... I wonder if anyone has actual test data, or a literature reference, to back up the claim that it degrades rapidly even when kept dry and cool.
Data should include storage conditions, including temperature and humidity, length of storage, and any quantified loss of chelating ability over time.
Otherwise one might be tempted to dismiss such claims as unsubstantiated rumor.
Interesting subject
There must have been a reason for the use of STPP by detergent manufactures vs using TSP. I know that TSP is more alkaline than STPP . Maybe TSP cleans better for wall washing...paint prep. TSP will cut through grease and etch into old paint making new paint adhere. (Needs to be rinsed, and ware gloves, made that mistake once)
But wait..why would that be good for laundry or fabric.
If TSP does not suspend hard water, or form a complex with hard water ions...Then why use it in laundry?
There must have been a reason for the use of STPP by detergent manufactures vs using TSP. I know that TSP is more alkaline than STPP . Maybe TSP cleans better for wall washing...paint prep. TSP will cut through grease and etch into old paint making new paint adhere. (Needs to be rinsed, and ware gloves, made that mistake once)
But wait..why would that be good for laundry or fabric.
If TSP does not suspend hard water, or form a complex with hard water ions...Then why use it in laundry?
Before this gets ridiculous
1) STPP is a much better laundry cleaner than TSP in hard water - it chelates the minerals which interfere with cleaning. No question. That's why I use it.
2) STPP deteriorates quickly if not properly stored - it's on every data sheet, we don't need to pretend it doesn't.
3) If we're now going to pretend TSP doesn't clean and that alkaline conditions are bad for laundry then we might as well just give up.
Nobody is saying STPP isn't wonderful - it is. I use it.
BUT - TSP together with a good enzymatic laundry detergent and hot water cleans really well, especially greasy/oily stains.
Come on folks, are we really going to pretend it doesn't? Are we really going to pretend that one should spend the money on STPP without trying TSP first? That TSP doesn't clean?
Seriously?
1) STPP is a much better laundry cleaner than TSP in hard water - it chelates the minerals which interfere with cleaning. No question. That's why I use it.
2) STPP deteriorates quickly if not properly stored - it's on every data sheet, we don't need to pretend it doesn't.
3) If we're now going to pretend TSP doesn't clean and that alkaline conditions are bad for laundry then we might as well just give up.
Nobody is saying STPP isn't wonderful - it is. I use it.
BUT - TSP together with a good enzymatic laundry detergent and hot water cleans really well, especially greasy/oily stains.
Come on folks, are we really going to pretend it doesn't? Are we really going to pretend that one should spend the money on STPP without trying TSP first? That TSP doesn't clean?
Seriously?
I don't doubt
That TSP cleans. Like I said I've used it as a paint prep. And made the mistake of not wearing gloves and burnt the hell out of my hands. So I know it cuts grease. The red burnt hands showed up the day after I used it.
Panthera, how much TSP do u use for laundry use
That TSP cleans. Like I said I've used it as a paint prep. And made the mistake of not wearing gloves and burnt the hell out of my hands. So I know it cuts grease. The red burnt hands showed up the day after I used it.
Panthera, how much TSP do u use for laundry use
Stan,
Here's my recipe for dirty clothes:
1/2 cup TSP
145F hot water
1/2 cup Arm&Hammer HE with enzymes
22 minute soak, 14 minute agitation
2 real rinses in a 42 year old Maytag
It never fails.
STPP, 4T instead of 1/2 cup.
Here's my recipe for dirty clothes:
1/2 cup TSP
145F hot water
1/2 cup Arm&Hammer HE with enzymes
22 minute soak, 14 minute agitation
2 real rinses in a 42 year old Maytag
It never fails.
STPP, 4T instead of 1/2 cup.
Are you
Able to do warm rinses with ur Maytag?
Able to do warm rinses with ur Maytag?
Back then, yup
We've a couple, I'm using an A702 (the following year it had an extra rinse option, I just reset the dial on this one).
Lovely machine. Never had to do any work on it.
Sometimes I use a '67 Filter-Flo, especially when there's dog hair.
We've a couple, I'm using an A702 (the following year it had an extra rinse option, I just reset the dial on this one).
Lovely machine. Never had to do any work on it.
Sometimes I use a '67 Filter-Flo, especially when there's dog hair.
OK,
I just bought a small pail (forgot if it's 5 or 10 lbs) of Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) from the Chemistry Store a few months ago.
It came in the sealed plastic pail. I transferred some to a small ziploc bag.
Since day 1, it has been a smooth flowing white powder that transforms into a hard rock as soon as it touches water. Cold, warm, hot, it does not matter. It takes a looong time and a lot of agitation for it to dissolve.
This has not been my experience with previous water softeners.
For the record, my water is naturally soft (0-4 grains) *most* of the year it can reach 6-8 grains in some parts of winter when the city uses water from other sources.
So yes, in my experience, STPP came to me "pre-stale", lets say.
Color me not so happy.
I'm also wondering if the majority of people who are the target market for this (traditional agitator toploaders) even notice, given that they dump the powder into the washer with other stuff, dum the clothes on top, and close the lid.
And by that I mean people in general, not folks here who like to watch the entire cycle.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
I just bought a small pail (forgot if it's 5 or 10 lbs) of Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) from the Chemistry Store a few months ago.
It came in the sealed plastic pail. I transferred some to a small ziploc bag.
Since day 1, it has been a smooth flowing white powder that transforms into a hard rock as soon as it touches water. Cold, warm, hot, it does not matter. It takes a looong time and a lot of agitation for it to dissolve.
This has not been my experience with previous water softeners.
For the record, my water is naturally soft (0-4 grains) *most* of the year it can reach 6-8 grains in some parts of winter when the city uses water from other sources.
So yes, in my experience, STPP came to me "pre-stale", lets say.
Color me not so happy.
I'm also wondering if the majority of people who are the target market for this (traditional agitator toploaders) even notice, given that they dump the powder into the washer with other stuff, dum the clothes on top, and close the lid.
And by that I mean people in general, not folks here who like to watch the entire cycle.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
mamapinky
Well-known member
Prior to The Dafna General Store closing their store I always ordered my STPP from them than myself along with a bunch of others over on Gardenweb noticed this STPP not disolving, turning to hard clumps even in hot water. Dafna sent new bags...same thing...I ordered a small bag from the Chem store..same thing...I picked up a small bag from Pittsburgh Spice..same thing.. I haven't a clue why.
Get my STPP
From Soap Goods, 4lb container with screw on lid.. No problem.
I only have Top Load machines, so I alway pre-dissolve any powdered substance including powdered detergent in hot water before adding. The STPP is the quickest to de solve.
From Soap Goods, 4lb container with screw on lid.. No problem.
I only have Top Load machines, so I alway pre-dissolve any powdered substance including powdered detergent in hot water before adding. The STPP is the quickest to de solve.
kb0nes
Well-known member
Paulo,
That is odd, I bought the exact same container from Chemistry Store. When I dummped the shot of powder into standing water in my top loader it was dissolved before it hit the bottom if of the basket. I left mine in the pail and slowly used it over the course of about a year. Never experienced anything like you describe... The powder was always free flowing as you mention and there was never any caking or issues with it dissolving. Strange
That is odd, I bought the exact same container from Chemistry Store. When I dummped the shot of powder into standing water in my top loader it was dissolved before it hit the bottom if of the basket. I left mine in the pail and slowly used it over the course of about a year. Never experienced anything like you describe... The powder was always free flowing as you mention and there was never any caking or issues with it dissolving. Strange
sudsmaster
Well-known member
STPP degredation:
I guess you (Panth) need to define "proper storage", and "quickly".
Like I said before, if the STPP is kept dry and out of the heat, it will last in powder form for years. I know this from personal experience.
Now, if you leave a cardboard box of it open under the kitchen sink next to damp garbage, yeah, it might degrade. Just like powder DW detergents will as well.
But keep it dry and room temp or lower, it doesn't "degrade quickly". At least not in my book.
I guess you (Panth) need to define "proper storage", and "quickly".
Like I said before, if the STPP is kept dry and out of the heat, it will last in powder form for years. I know this from personal experience.
Now, if you leave a cardboard box of it open under the kitchen sink next to damp garbage, yeah, it might degrade. Just like powder DW detergents will as well.
But keep it dry and room temp or lower, it doesn't "degrade quickly". At least not in my book.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
STPP that is lumpy and won't dissolve?
Most likely old stock that was not properly stored. It's absorbed moisture.
It might still work well enough. One could test its effectiveness by mixing it with warm or hot hard water in a glass jar, and noting if there's any visible precipitate. If none, then it's good to go.
As a control, do the same with a precipitating water softener like washing soda or TSP. If you see a precipitate with those ( and you should with hard water ), then you know your test regimen is good.
Don't have hard water? I suppose one could approximate it by mixing tap water with calcium cloride and magnesium sulfate.
Next question.
Most likely old stock that was not properly stored. It's absorbed moisture.
It might still work well enough. One could test its effectiveness by mixing it with warm or hot hard water in a glass jar, and noting if there's any visible precipitate. If none, then it's good to go.
As a control, do the same with a precipitating water softener like washing soda or TSP. If you see a precipitate with those ( and you should with hard water ), then you know your test regimen is good.
Don't have hard water? I suppose one could approximate it by mixing tap water with calcium cloride and magnesium sulfate.
Next question.
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