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brettsomers

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so why did kenmore/whirlpool feature both agitator designs? what are the merits of each? did certain tubs get a certain agitator? was there a logic to what agitator when on what machine? thanks
 
This is my guess...
Fifty some years ago, Whirlpool had a huge contract with Sears to build most of their large appliances. (I think WP STILL makes most of the Sears brand large appliances) WP did not want to take sales away from the Kenmore line,but wanted to add to those sales. WP tried to "mask" the fact that the machines they were marketing were in reality the same machines Sears was selling. So the lids opened from the side on Kenmore,and from the front on WP. The tops and fronts of of the cabinets were changed slightly for either brand to make a difference of appearance. And of course the agitators had to be different also.
In my opinion,the Roto-Swirl is gentle,in comparison to the Surgilator. The Surgilator will handle 7 pair of heavy jeans without a problem,and still turn them over well. The Super-Roto-Swirl cannot turn jeans as well,and has a bad habit of winding the leg of the jeans around the itself instead,which then stops all turnover.
The Roto-Swirl is great for heavy towels and turns them over well without any sud lock problems. The Surgilator can also turn heavy towels over even better,however it will kick up so much suds that the machine suds locks every time. So either design was ok,but the Surgilator made for a much more aggressive washing machine.

3-17-2006-23-26-39--rickr.jpg
 
Oh, I agree with Rick, the Surgilator is VERY aggressive. The electric version of pounding clothes on a rock! Like so many of the older designs, it was meant to get really dirty clothes really clean, back when much of America worked a farm or in a factory. Lots of jeans and overalls/unionalls. I had friends whose families thought using the same bath towel for a week was perfectly acceptable----scandalous!
Combine that Surgilator with Whirly's "brisk" agitation speed and you had aggressive cleaning!

Kenmore took great delight in promoting that Roto-Swirl. I remember the first ones I saw at Atlanta's big old Sears (on Ponce de Leon) years ago. Seems like those display machines were almost always a "pank" pair of LK's with multi-colored poker chips in them for pleasing visual display. I remember how the roto-swirls would move the chips in a circle as well as rolling them over. It does the same thing with a "normal" load of clothes. Put a load of stiff and bulky denims in though and it tends to just pump everything up and down with little roll over. None the less, they sold a gazillion of 'em, so something worked!

I don't know if I EVER remember a Whirly/Kenmore back in the day that did not suffer suds-lock. It was just "normal", kind of like water dripping down the door of a "Rustinghouse". Also, the main line detergents of the day were nearly all high sudsing, and most people in those days equated a good layer of suds with good cleaning. (My family "killed" a Unimatic with Tide, I mean it got choked to death! I can't tell you how many times I discovered it with the overload button popped out----but of course could'nt say anything for fear of being blamed for something! Motor finally burned out!.My Mother finally "discovered" (red box "Fluffy") All and along with a new '64 Multimatic, the problems stopped.)

Anyway, both agitators were a lot of fun to see in action.
 
WP Surgilator-My favorite-then the Roto-Swirl and the Norge agitator and the WP-KN BD Dual Action--No DD Dual Actions please.My Grandmother had the KN with the big black fat Roto-Swirl-love watching it.And My stepmom's washer had one.It was that tan colored one.Then the laundramat in one of the apartment buildings I lived in-they Had the WP washers with Surgilators-as some of them wore out-the laundry company put Roto-Swirls in some of the machines-then the best of both!!In watching the Roto-Swirl-one one of the strokes it seems to suck the clothes down--then on the other stroke--pushes them back up.I could see this really well when you put a Roto-Swirl washer on "Gentle" speed.Please KN-Bring back the BD Roto-Swirl!!The Surgilator has the really aggresive actionalmost seems like its making the water and clothes boil!!nad splashy too!Better bring your raincoat if spectating one with a large load of clothes in it-a lighter load its less "splashy"
 
how do yall think a roto-swirl would work in one of the modern machines? would they have to make it smaller due to the shredder strokes?
 
I Agree!

That IS a beautiful picture - you couldn't have made the colors work so well if you tried - I saved it to my desktop and would like you to send it to me also rick so I can print it out and frame it - the gleaming surgilator ,the tongue of water and the perfect rainbow of clothes - I LOVE it!

Matt
 
Thanks guys...Didn't realize my gym clothes and underwear were "artworthy" But never understood Picasso either,so what can I say? These photos were taken last Summer with a 35mm camera.
Your artwork is on it's way. (:
 
You guys, you don't need anyone to send you a picture, all visible pictures on this site are unlocked. Simply go to the picture you want to save and bring you mouse over it. Right Click and select Save Picture As...

As for suds-locks, 1950's Whirlpool and Kenmore washers all suds-lock with towels or very absorbent items no matter what the agitator, they did get a little bit better in the 1960's but still had some suds lock issues. As for suds-locking a Unimatic that is working properly, in my eight years of using them I have never ever been able to do it, not once and boy have I tried with all kinds of detergents vintage and modern. But I have had issues with bad motor protector switches; each time the switch pops it seems to get slightly weaker and will pop faster the next time. Another thing that can cause the Unimatic motor protector switch to pop with moderate suds is if the drain hose is kinked, the pump being clogged or other obstruction to slow the water pump pressure down.
 
Not for nothing, but I think the Roto-Swirls are more agressive. You have the big slope to suck and the big fins to thrash. I think the Surgilator is gentler in that it is smaller and the curvaceous vanes allow the clothes to slip on by easier. Nothing better than a standard capacity WP with a standard size Surgilator...

Except a Speed Queen...

And a Philco...

And a Kelvinator...

And a Frigidaire...

(ducking and running away at full speed...)
 
Robert,can you tell me what changes were made to the WP/KM from the 1950's to the 1960's to prevent the suds lock problems?
I did add the nylon drain deflector to the 56WP during the rebuild,however that is the only changes I could see from the 56WP to the 65 KM.( I used the tub from a 61 KM during the rebuild to add the lint filter)

Very witty Peter. Too bad of all the machines you listed,only Speed Queen is still in business.
 
While you're waiting for Robert's reply (that is, someone who actually knows what they're talking about) I think KM/SP began using 1/2- instead of 1/3-horsepower motors at some point in the 1960's. Whether that made a difference, I'm not sure.

Our 1960 KM suds-locked all the time, especially (as Robert noted) with towel loads. As a kid, I would wait for the first spin to start, let it spin just a few seconds, then I'd lift the lid and let the excess water drain; I'd close the lid and away it'd go. It just couldn't get rid of the spun-out sudsy water fast enough to prevent suds lock on its own.
 
love to know

Now that we're back to agitator power, I've always wondered about the Philco, since I've never seen one "in person." Can the Philco agitator accept and move more clothes than the classic three ring Frigidaire agitator.

thanks
 
I remember those Philco's could sure roll those clothes over but don't recall how they would handle an oversized or bulky load.

IMO they would not be able to move things around like a Frigidaire no matter which pulsator was used.

Robert should know---or Jimmy------?
 
Yes Frigilux,I'll just wait for someone that knows what they are talking about. Who do you think restored my machines? And why would I say that my 1950's WP suds locks on towels,and the 1960's Kenmore does not? Do you really think I would lie about that? What for?Would you like to come to Indiana with some dirty towels, and see for yourself?
There are people here that know me personally,and they would tell you that I do not deceive anyone. Someone asked a question on this thread,and I simply did my best to answer it,and included the photos for fun.
 
Robert--------

Just to stir the pot---------we had a neighbor who choked her Unimatic to death with Wisk when it first came out! I remember MANY Frigidaires back in the day choking on suds.

As I said before,IMO, I think people back in the day thought you had to have a suds cake a foot thick on top to have good cleaning so they tended to put too much detergent in. Also, I can't speak for what happens chemically as those vintage detergents age on the shelf, but I can speak about how high sudsing most of them were. Tide, Cheer, Duz, Super Suds, Wisk, and good old Ivory Snow soap flakes were really bad. HOWEVER here in Atlanta the water is naturally a bit on the soft side and that might have something to do with all the sudsing I remember.

I remember trying to dose Ivory Snow. It was o.k. with fabrics that did not hold on to water, but with heavy fabrics-----suds-lock all the time----and I remember the directions on the box calling for a "layer of suds".

So ANYWAY, thats my story and I'm sticking to it thhhhhhhhhhhht.
 
Hi Rick, I'm not quite sure exactly what changed, I'm only going by my observations between what I've seen between the 1950's models and the 1960's/70's models. I suspect the drain trap might have something to do with it.

Sorry Steve I have five Unimatics hooked up working like new, which get used weekly, I have very soft water as well and have had HUGE suds cakes rising up to the top of the open lid, without ever as much as a blink, so how exactly do we explain this...

http://68.89.57.239/VID/TEMP/WCI-58-Wash-Spin-Off.WMV
 
Whatever the problem with Kenmore was, the Maytag's and Frigidaire 1-18's that I've owned had the same problem! Yes, even my Miele has a problem (with Persil, no less).

Towels = suds lock.

As far as suds lock in a solid tub, it can happen. Someone who had a large capacity SQ solid tub used to get suds lock in his machine. Now, that Steve has seen it and Rober hasn't is not the issue: that it CAN happen has to be admitted. Conditions were right that Steve has seen it and conditions are right that Robert hasn't seen it. But the possibility remains..
 
rickr--- I'm not sure what happened in translation, but I was definitely not trying to call you a liar or question your knowledge about washers! I've had both a '59 and a '60 KM which had 1/3-horsepower motors and they both suds-locked quite often.

Neighbors who had a KM from later in the 1960's didn't have as much of a suds lock issue, and I think their machine had a 1/2-HP motor. I was just speculating as to whether the larger motor had helped improve the problem, that's all.

Sorry for any confusion--- certainly no insult was intended!
 
Peter, lets be careful with words here. I never said you can't suds lock a solid basket washer, because I have suds locked at least once my Speed Queen, Hotpoint, Philco and Easy. I was refering only to Unimatic washers only. I'm certainly not saying that Steve didn't actually see these Unimatics with their motor protectors popped, because I absolutely believe that he did. What I am saying is I'm trying to figure the root cause, because no matter how hard I try I cannot reproduce those results with my Unimatics.
 
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