The BIG Question
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dogboy44
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vivalalavatrice
Gabriella Ferri was my Mother in Law.
Gabriella Ferri was my Mother in Law.
electron800
Well-known member
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in all honesty
Front loaders are capable of washing perfectly with very little water, i.e.the water does not need to be visible when the machine is on. I do beleive that if the wash results of modern and vintage front loaders were compared, the modern ones would generally have the upper hand due to longer cycle times and more accurate control over temperature, not to mention profile washes.
Modern machines CAN rinse well, providing the spins between the rinses are very fast and water levels are adequate (what adequate is is debatable).
Personally I do not see how a top loader can rinse better than a front loder with only one deep rinse, but it's been a long time since I used one.
There is something quite fun about top loaders, but if I could only have one machine it would have to be a front loader.
For me the most important thing in a machine is reliability and wash/rinse results. Water/energy usage, as well as fancy features and capacity/spin speed/styling are an afterthought for me.
Matt
Front loaders are capable of washing perfectly with very little water, i.e.the water does not need to be visible when the machine is on. I do beleive that if the wash results of modern and vintage front loaders were compared, the modern ones would generally have the upper hand due to longer cycle times and more accurate control over temperature, not to mention profile washes.
Modern machines CAN rinse well, providing the spins between the rinses are very fast and water levels are adequate (what adequate is is debatable).
Personally I do not see how a top loader can rinse better than a front loder with only one deep rinse, but it's been a long time since I used one.
There is something quite fun about top loaders, but if I could only have one machine it would have to be a front loader.
For me the most important thing in a machine is reliability and wash/rinse results. Water/energy usage, as well as fancy features and capacity/spin speed/styling are an afterthought for me.
Matt
supremewhirlpol
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- Mar 25, 2009
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- 2,134
Sudsman ... Where should I be looking on Ebay to find machines that cheap?
Have posted links to eBay auctions for commercial washing machines and the like here in the group for ages.
Most if not all are in the category listed above, but sometimes they are found under "Major Appliances" sub-category "washing machines" and or "washing machines and dryers".
If you really want to cry, check out the same listings for any of the European eBay sites. We're talking some serious commercial laundry equipment.
Most if not all are in the category listed above, but sometimes they are found under "Major Appliances" sub-category "washing machines" and or "washing machines and dryers".
If you really want to cry, check out the same listings for any of the European eBay sites. We're talking some serious commercial laundry equipment.
Front, Side, & Top Loading
H-Axis washing machines have long dominated the commercial laundry market, leaving aside laundromats for a good reasons.
Capacity, gentleness of wash action, and ability to do more wash with less water than a top loading washing machine with a central beater.
Indeed once one goes about washing machines rated for say 25lbs, you aren't going to find a top loader, certianly not one for 100lbs of laundry or more.
Top loading washing machines, later automatic top loading washing machines came to dominate the American market for several reasons.
In the early days of washing machines, there were all sorts, including tumblers (like the Thor washer in another member's post), and wringers. What all these machines had in common was the fact none spun laundry dry. In a commercial laundry workers unloaded the washers into extractors, but that was neither practical nor safe for wide household use. So women dealt with wringers, automated and hand crank.
Meanwhile Bendix was at work on their front loader, and due to their work and patents, no other manufacturer could build nor improve upon the design for their own use without paying royalties, if Bendix allowed it at all. Front loaders then only tumbled in one direction, causing Madame's laundry to emerge often in one tangled mess. Indeed these machines were nicknamed the "rope maker".
Since Bendix had the front load market tied up, American laundry makers continued to innovate and develop the top loading model. These machines gave acceptable results for most American housewives, especially when coupled with the ample supply of hot to very hot water from the taps, and chlorine bleach used for stain removal and whitening.
What is also important to remember top loading washing machines were a natural evolution from the way most women did laundry; that is in a tub using a dolly stick to "agitate" the wash water.
H-Axis washing machines have long dominated the commercial laundry market, leaving aside laundromats for a good reasons.
Capacity, gentleness of wash action, and ability to do more wash with less water than a top loading washing machine with a central beater.
Indeed once one goes about washing machines rated for say 25lbs, you aren't going to find a top loader, certianly not one for 100lbs of laundry or more.
Top loading washing machines, later automatic top loading washing machines came to dominate the American market for several reasons.
In the early days of washing machines, there were all sorts, including tumblers (like the Thor washer in another member's post), and wringers. What all these machines had in common was the fact none spun laundry dry. In a commercial laundry workers unloaded the washers into extractors, but that was neither practical nor safe for wide household use. So women dealt with wringers, automated and hand crank.
Meanwhile Bendix was at work on their front loader, and due to their work and patents, no other manufacturer could build nor improve upon the design for their own use without paying royalties, if Bendix allowed it at all. Front loaders then only tumbled in one direction, causing Madame's laundry to emerge often in one tangled mess. Indeed these machines were nicknamed the "rope maker".
Since Bendix had the front load market tied up, American laundry makers continued to innovate and develop the top loading model. These machines gave acceptable results for most American housewives, especially when coupled with the ample supply of hot to very hot water from the taps, and chlorine bleach used for stain removal and whitening.
What is also important to remember top loading washing machines were a natural evolution from the way most women did laundry; that is in a tub using a dolly stick to "agitate" the wash water.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
Thanks Launderess!!
Once Again
Keep in mind the four variables of good laundry practice:
Time
Mechanical Action
Water Temperature
Chemical Action
Be it by hitting it against a rock, beating it with a wooden paddle, scrubbing it against a wash board, you name it, women have been using heavy mechanical action to get through their wash day. While it can be hard on textiles, the more mechanical action one applies, the less time one has to spend "washing", especially with high water temperatures.
Considering the above a top loading washing machine suited what many women felt was the proper way of doing laundry. More importantly it allowed them to get the job of doing tons of wash over quite quickly. In the days of large familes, this was important.
Finally remember low sudsing detergents are a must for front loading washing machines, and aside from Dash, and a few others they were hard to find. Until around WWII and probably for a good while after, soap was the most often used product for laundry, and soap requires hot water to clean and creates lots of froth. The last bit rules out their use in front loaders.
Keep in mind the four variables of good laundry practice:
Time
Mechanical Action
Water Temperature
Chemical Action
Be it by hitting it against a rock, beating it with a wooden paddle, scrubbing it against a wash board, you name it, women have been using heavy mechanical action to get through their wash day. While it can be hard on textiles, the more mechanical action one applies, the less time one has to spend "washing", especially with high water temperatures.
Considering the above a top loading washing machine suited what many women felt was the proper way of doing laundry. More importantly it allowed them to get the job of doing tons of wash over quite quickly. In the days of large familes, this was important.
Finally remember low sudsing detergents are a must for front loading washing machines, and aside from Dash, and a few others they were hard to find. Until around WWII and probably for a good while after, soap was the most often used product for laundry, and soap requires hot water to clean and creates lots of froth. The last bit rules out their use in front loaders.
That I Do Not Know
Am sure others will chime in however.
IIRC Bendix held patents on suspension systems and so forth, but the suspension system is the key to any decent front loader, both then and now. Without a great system, you are limited in many ways, especially how fast the washer can spin. Well you could try high spin speeds, and also risk the machine taking off and going for a walk, if not falling over one someone.
Am sure others will chime in however.
IIRC Bendix held patents on suspension systems and so forth, but the suspension system is the key to any decent front loader, both then and now. Without a great system, you are limited in many ways, especially how fast the washer can spin. Well you could try high spin speeds, and also risk the machine taking off and going for a walk, if not falling over one someone.
Sorry to change the subjet slighlty but.....
I would reather have the best rinsing washer than worry about how much Co emmittences new cars emit co!!! We're looking for a new car and the emmitances of CO seem to be more of an issue!!!! Personally I would have my mind on CLEAN WELL RINSED clothes.... Maybe I'm in the minorigity..
Hope all is well with the Gang!!!
Pete
I would reather have the best rinsing washer than worry about how much Co emmittences new cars emit co!!! We're looking for a new car and the emmitances of CO seem to be more of an issue!!!! Personally I would have my mind on CLEAN WELL RINSED clothes.... Maybe I'm in the minorigity..
Hope all is well with the Gang!!!
Pete
We always go too far....
No one wants to waste,but we have gone too far the other way when it comes to washers.They do not use enough water to properly wash or rinse.From my old FL to the new,I can tell significant difference in three ways.First,the clothes are simply not as clean-especially whites-nor do they smell as fresh.Two,there is more wear on clothes.Three,rinsing is not near as good.I bleach my whites about every three washes,and must run them through another rinse cycle to get rid of the smell-that tells me the soap is not properly flushed away either.My old FL,when filled without clothes,had about 3 1/2 inches of water in the tub.The new fills only to 1 1/2 inches.Just not enough water to get the job done.The "wet nap" approach to washing can not deep clean,and it takes a certain amount of rinse water to flush the soap from a given amount of clothes.
Tom
No one wants to waste,but we have gone too far the other way when it comes to washers.They do not use enough water to properly wash or rinse.From my old FL to the new,I can tell significant difference in three ways.First,the clothes are simply not as clean-especially whites-nor do they smell as fresh.Two,there is more wear on clothes.Three,rinsing is not near as good.I bleach my whites about every three washes,and must run them through another rinse cycle to get rid of the smell-that tells me the soap is not properly flushed away either.My old FL,when filled without clothes,had about 3 1/2 inches of water in the tub.The new fills only to 1 1/2 inches.Just not enough water to get the job done.The "wet nap" approach to washing can not deep clean,and it takes a certain amount of rinse water to flush the soap from a given amount of clothes.
Tom
ronhic
Well-known member
From what I can gather from here regarding American made front load machines, it would appear that the cycle times are not sufficiently long enough to cope with both the lower water levels and the large capacity of the machines.
Laundress has stated above that there are 4 variables that need to be in sync to achieve a good wash result.
European machines have no problems providing a consistantly good to excellent result (depending on brand) whilst using very little water and, in our market, no bleach (there is no provision for it in the drawer in any front loader sold here).
As an example, Miele machines sold here are generally at the top of the washing performance scores and mid to high mid range for rinsing yet a 6.5kg or (16 pound) normal cycle uses only 50 litres (12.5 US gallons) of water whilst still retaining one of the highest gentleness ratings for fabric care.
So what have we achieved and what has had to give to get there.
Wash performance - Excellent
Rinse performance - Good
Gentleness - Excellent
ahhh...the wash time. Standard wash cycle at full capacity (so no quick wash or time reducers) is 112 minutes at 30c.
Now before people start to say that it must cost a fortune to run a machine like that and you are better off being quick with the cycle and heavy with the chemicals and water...consider this.
An equiv. capacity standard Fisher and Paykel top loader rates as follows
Wash performance - Excellent
Rinse performance - Excellent
Gentleness - Poor
Wash time 47m....which is fast, but then the water usage was 157 litres (40 US Gallons) or more than 3 times what the Miele uses.
Now stick with me as here is the crunch. Estimated cost to run both machines through the same number of cycles over 10yrs is:
Miele $336
F&P $688
...and that is with cold water washing in the Fisher and Paykel.
Now it gets better. When you start looking at life expectancy of an appliance, Miele tends to come out on top. I would fully expect a Miele to last between 15-20yrs if it is looked after and a Fisher and Paykel to last about half that. So when you factor in replacing the Fisher and Paykel half way through the life of the Miele and it was half the price initially, suddenly the Miele looks not only better value for the environment with its lower usage of resources, but it is cheaper to run by half and lasts longer.
So over 20yrs, you could save upwards of $700 (in Australia) in utility costs at todays prices (and you are washing in warm water not cold) AND based on 7 loads a week over 20yrs, 728000 litres of water or 182000 US Gallons.
So if we change the way we do things, we can benefit as well as the environment. If the makers of appliances in the US increased the wash cycle of their front loaders, stuck a heater in them so they could at least maintain the wash temperature and re-educate the population about the use of (or excessive use of) additives such as LCB, then everyone would win (I have never quite understood the addiction to LCB that people in the US seem to have)
Clothes would be clean (as they should be - clean that is), there would be less chemicals used and less water washed down the drain.
Isn't that worth saving?
Laundress has stated above that there are 4 variables that need to be in sync to achieve a good wash result.
European machines have no problems providing a consistantly good to excellent result (depending on brand) whilst using very little water and, in our market, no bleach (there is no provision for it in the drawer in any front loader sold here).
As an example, Miele machines sold here are generally at the top of the washing performance scores and mid to high mid range for rinsing yet a 6.5kg or (16 pound) normal cycle uses only 50 litres (12.5 US gallons) of water whilst still retaining one of the highest gentleness ratings for fabric care.
So what have we achieved and what has had to give to get there.
Wash performance - Excellent
Rinse performance - Good
Gentleness - Excellent
ahhh...the wash time. Standard wash cycle at full capacity (so no quick wash or time reducers) is 112 minutes at 30c.
Now before people start to say that it must cost a fortune to run a machine like that and you are better off being quick with the cycle and heavy with the chemicals and water...consider this.
An equiv. capacity standard Fisher and Paykel top loader rates as follows
Wash performance - Excellent
Rinse performance - Excellent
Gentleness - Poor
Wash time 47m....which is fast, but then the water usage was 157 litres (40 US Gallons) or more than 3 times what the Miele uses.
Now stick with me as here is the crunch. Estimated cost to run both machines through the same number of cycles over 10yrs is:
Miele $336
F&P $688
...and that is with cold water washing in the Fisher and Paykel.
Now it gets better. When you start looking at life expectancy of an appliance, Miele tends to come out on top. I would fully expect a Miele to last between 15-20yrs if it is looked after and a Fisher and Paykel to last about half that. So when you factor in replacing the Fisher and Paykel half way through the life of the Miele and it was half the price initially, suddenly the Miele looks not only better value for the environment with its lower usage of resources, but it is cheaper to run by half and lasts longer.
So over 20yrs, you could save upwards of $700 (in Australia) in utility costs at todays prices (and you are washing in warm water not cold) AND based on 7 loads a week over 20yrs, 728000 litres of water or 182000 US Gallons.
So if we change the way we do things, we can benefit as well as the environment. If the makers of appliances in the US increased the wash cycle of their front loaders, stuck a heater in them so they could at least maintain the wash temperature and re-educate the population about the use of (or excessive use of) additives such as LCB, then everyone would win (I have never quite understood the addiction to LCB that people in the US seem to have)
Clothes would be clean (as they should be - clean that is), there would be less chemicals used and less water washed down the drain.
Isn't that worth saving?
ronhic
Well-known member
Sorry about that....got a bit carried away
Washer Fan
Some things to keep in mind when selecting a Commerical Washer.
Most require to be bolted down. Some require as much as 8" of concrete. most have gravity drains and not pumps. Most have drain that are 3 to 4" min. I have 2 that require 8" most require 3 phase electric service. some require 440 or 580 In the event you need service Commerical rates will range in the 100.00 Hr/ range plus service call fees which start on a ave of 100.00. Not unusual to have a service ticket to run the area of 500 to 600.oo; have had them up to 3 or 4 . thousand. Shock waves from high speed extract will be felt through out the house. And can cause damage. Not meaning to discourage you just know what you are getting into. Be sure you read the specs very carefully.
Some things to keep in mind when selecting a Commerical Washer.
Most require to be bolted down. Some require as much as 8" of concrete. most have gravity drains and not pumps. Most have drain that are 3 to 4" min. I have 2 that require 8" most require 3 phase electric service. some require 440 or 580 In the event you need service Commerical rates will range in the 100.00 Hr/ range plus service call fees which start on a ave of 100.00. Not unusual to have a service ticket to run the area of 500 to 600.oo; have had them up to 3 or 4 . thousand. Shock waves from high speed extract will be felt through out the house. And can cause damage. Not meaning to discourage you just know what you are getting into. Be sure you read the specs very carefully.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
I have never quite understood the addiction to LCB that peop
Hello, My name is Iheartmaytag, and I'm a Bleach-a-holic. I can't remember a time I wasn't addicted to bleach. It may have started in the days when I worked in a resturant and did many sinks full of dishes by hand. It could have been those many times I cleaned the restrooms and didn't want to leave any survivers in the germ and virus department. Perhaps it could have been heridatiry as my mother too is a Bleach-a-holic.
Mother always insisted on Bleach for her Whites. Mom is an obsessive like myself so all of our sheets were washed, hung to dry and ironed daily. (This was, of course, when she was a stay-at-home-Mom and had the time to devote to her addiction).
I have always associated the clean fresh smell of chlorine as sanatized and perfectly clean. We have linens that are 30 or more years old with no holes or signs of fabric breakdown; yet still as white as the day they came home. They have always been washed in a top-load machine, ususally hot water, and yes LCB.
Thank you for listening, I have no intentions of being cured--I'm a bleach-a-holic.
Oh-OH, not to mention chlorine is almost solely responsible for cheap, safe drinking water, as well as crystal clear swiming pools. Chlorine is not an addiction, chlorine is your friend.
*****
The proceeding message has been brought to you by the Chlorine lovers of America, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the webmaster.
Hello, My name is Iheartmaytag, and I'm a Bleach-a-holic. I can't remember a time I wasn't addicted to bleach. It may have started in the days when I worked in a resturant and did many sinks full of dishes by hand. It could have been those many times I cleaned the restrooms and didn't want to leave any survivers in the germ and virus department. Perhaps it could have been heridatiry as my mother too is a Bleach-a-holic.
Mother always insisted on Bleach for her Whites. Mom is an obsessive like myself so all of our sheets were washed, hung to dry and ironed daily. (This was, of course, when she was a stay-at-home-Mom and had the time to devote to her addiction).
I have always associated the clean fresh smell of chlorine as sanatized and perfectly clean. We have linens that are 30 or more years old with no holes or signs of fabric breakdown; yet still as white as the day they came home. They have always been washed in a top-load machine, ususally hot water, and yes LCB.
Thank you for listening, I have no intentions of being cured--I'm a bleach-a-holic.
Oh-OH, not to mention chlorine is almost solely responsible for cheap, safe drinking water, as well as crystal clear swiming pools. Chlorine is not an addiction, chlorine is your friend.
*****
The proceeding message has been brought to you by the Chlorine lovers of America, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the webmaster.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
After my long-winded
and tongue in cheek response above. Here is the skinny and sweet. Many Americans are germ-o-phobes. It comes from a Dr. Spock upbringing. Everything has to be sanatized, and steralized. Bleach is associated with the sanitary environmet we need to live in. Being obsessive, germ-o-phobes this leads to our addiction.
There are also studies that show we are making ourselves sick from being too clean, which causes our immune systems to not develope as well as causes our systems to go overboard when we are exposed to something. Speaking as an addict and Asthmatic, I can almost attest.
and tongue in cheek response above. Here is the skinny and sweet. Many Americans are germ-o-phobes. It comes from a Dr. Spock upbringing. Everything has to be sanatized, and steralized. Bleach is associated with the sanitary environmet we need to live in. Being obsessive, germ-o-phobes this leads to our addiction.
There are also studies that show we are making ourselves sick from being too clean, which causes our immune systems to not develope as well as causes our systems to go overboard when we are exposed to something. Speaking as an addict and Asthmatic, I can almost attest.
