The Longest Lasting And Most Durable Dishwasher Pump And Motor Ever Made

[combo52]

Shaded pole dishwasher main pump, Motors

Hi Brendan, I wondered whether that Westinghouse motor from 71 through five was a shaded pole motor. It wasn’t a great motor. That’s for sure. The shafts used to rust almost completely off those when we would try to rebuild them. The shaft was usually down to about nothing after it had a leak for a while.

You bring up some good points about those original GE motors. I couldn’t stand the sound of them as the speed of the motor increased and slowed down as the water surger through the pump. It was a very unnerving sound to say nothing about the general loud tinny sound of the fan and motor .

And I like that you also remembered how often those original motors got stuck because there was no starting torque with the shade and pole motor, the later PSC Motors also would occasionally get stuck. I’ve seen that but not near as often as the original motor we used to teach people how to get under their GE dishwasher and give the fan blade to spin often times if you go away for a week or so the thing would always get stuck again we used to have people put cooking oil in the dishwasher and run it a bit before they went on vacation ( to lubricate the seal )so they had a chance that it would work When they got back home from vacation and wouldn’t have to have yet another service call on it.

But I do think you’re right that that was also a shaded pole motor on the Westinghouse dishwashers. They at least didn’t make the surging sound that the GE black motors made. They seem to run to a nice consistent speed. We have a 72 Westinghouse dishwasher in our museum with that pump and motor system in it. I kept it as a demonstration to show what happens when Westinghouse copied the basic GE dishwashers. The GE dishwashers were much more durable overall but 71 to 75 Westinghouse was an attempt to compete with GE, making the cheapest possible dishwasher for builders.

John

 

[cfz2882]

i almost mentioned the WH shaft rust problem-rust buildup would expand and crack the bakelite impeller hub,really increasing the leak...Last one of these i saw was at the dump in '82 and i took the motor/pump because it was large and interesting Grandma would stop and restart the GE when the pump would stick: usually one restart would get it turning.

 

[reactor]

what's in a sound?

The sound of the GE dishwashers, with the pre-PSC has come up several times on this site. Many, including myself, like the purring rhythmic sound produced by the GE's. Comforting and familiar.

The motor is one of the reasons that General Electric dishwashers had such a high reliability rating in Consumer's Reports magazine. GE and Whirlpool were both always in the top of the reliability ratings based on consumer surveys conducted by CU in their annual questionnaire.

Dishwashers have a low and constant starting load. As usual GE engineers did a remarkable job of designing the machine to fit the need. That is why GE dishwashers were always a best seller in the industry.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

GE dishwashers

I remember the GE pumps would vibrate the entire cabinetry in my house. Mine was under the Kenmore label. This was when the dishwasher was trying to recirculate the water after it got done draining. It has done that even with the GE filter-flo set was running in the background. I clearly remember it. It seemed to do that when good smelling dishwasher detergent and rinse aid were used.

 

[rollermatic]

in 1972 i bought

a g.e. avocado portable dishwasher for our kitchen. i remember it had a plastic melmac (or whatever) top which was white with black speckles in it. the dishwasher was nothing like the kitchenaid portable i really wanted to buy (but felt i could not afford.) therefore it was deeply flawed before it was ever delivered to our 2nd. floor kitchen.

unlike my coveted kitchenaid all the controls were at the back, on the top of that cheesy plastic top. the door had nothing on it but the locking lever. i hated that!

it had feet on the bottom on the sides of the access panel that would pop out when you opened the door to keep it from tipping over when a loaded rack of dishes was rolled out. no other dishwasher did that, especially kitchenaids! this was a serious infraction and i hated that!

the detergent cup was so poorly designed that all the detergent would leak out during the initial 30 second purge/rinse that started the cycle. i had to cut a plastic peice from a margarine lid to fit over the cup after filling with detergent to keep it in the cup till the main wash. it worked but you had to hunt for that plastic shield when you unloaded the machine, it was usually floating in the sump. i hated that! but i loved it as it was my idea and it worked!

i remember the motor ran continuously just like a KitchenAid and i did like that! the drain valve solonoid was loud and unannounced and i definately liked that! it sounded like it meant business!

the motor did have a nice purr to it (as mentioned in a post above) and since we were a cat family i did like that!

the spray arm was weird and i hated that! it was stainless steel with all the holes on one side only! the other side had one hole on the end to rotate the arm. that was heresy in my 16 year old mind!

i did like the power tower (i wonder why?) and have to admit that the racks were great at loading stuff randomly. you could really pack it full!

there was no visible pump at the bottom of the tub and to me that was not how any respectable dishwasher should look! all you saw was that deformed spray arm coupled with a large round sump to the left rear of it! i hated that!

the main wash was about 9 minutes long compared to the hotpoint 6 minute wash i was used to (as our first dishwasher was a hotpoint i got out of the garbage and fixed up when i was 13). that made sense to me and not much else on this little green machine did!

think it had about 3 after rinses and 3 prerinses but back then no one cared how much water a dishwasher or washing machine used so that was fine! besides i didn't pay the water bill so the more washes and rinses the better! just like our coppertone frigidaire custom imperial jet action rollermatic in the basement! i used to love to watch those deep overflow rinses that seemed to go on and on!

i later built it in getting rid of those damned feet that would pop out the front to steady it and moving the control panel in it's entirety from the machine itself to the top panel on the sink base cabinet next to the dishwasher. i had also put in an avocado double bowl sink that was popular at the time crowned with an in- sink-erator reversing motor 1/2 hp disposer that phyllis diller advertised! it converted to a built in nicely, looked good next to that sink and i liked that!

i did all this by cutting grass at 2 bucks a yard! it took awhile!

that dishwasher was still usable when that house was sold in 1987, however the plastic (whatever they called it) tub coating was peeling off like the machine had leprosy, and i had replaced the pump seal once or twice by the mid 80's.

it was definitely a love hate relationship between that g.e. potscrubber and me, i despised that thing but then again i loved to load it up and watch it's every move! i would sit in the kitchen and time it and critique it and hate and love it at the same time!

AND IT DID A GREAT JOB OF CLEANING THE DISHES!

(i might add we always used finish detergent and the rinse aid dispenser was always filled with jet dry!)

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>it had feet on the bottom on the sides of the access panel that would pop out when you opened the door to keep it from tipping over when a loaded rack of dishes was rolled out. no other dishwasher did that, especially kitchenaids! this was a serious infraction and i hated that!</blockquote> IIRC, Whirlpool frontloading portables had that feature.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

GE dishwasher motors

Is it me, or am I noticing that GE dishwashers from 2000 onwards have quieter motors due to the lack of a cooling fan?

 

[neptunebob]

No, they actually are quieter

I have Kenmore that is the lowest priced in the basement that is made by GE and I call it the KenROAR. I remember GE always be a loud one, D&M Kenmores would be quiet when new but get louder as they aged. But no dishwasher was quiet back then.

Another issue with GE is maybe the dishwasher motors got cheaper when Jack Welch was at GE and that he cheaped out all of the GE appliances before Haier bought them.

 

[Chetlaham]

In the very late 90s / early 2000s GE switched their shaded pole motors to PSC induction motors. These motors were much more quiet, efficient, vibrated less, had higher starting and running torque. GE's shaded pole motors peaked between 1983 and 1989. After that they gradually declined in quality up until there total cessation.    

 

[combo52]

GE dishwasher shaded pole motor 1967 through 1989

Was easily the worst piece of crap for a motor ever used in a domestic dishwasher, the motor was fairly reliable. The issue was the amount of noise. It made an energy it consumed and it’s very low starting torque

Sometime in the 80s, they stopped welding the steel cooling fan onto the shaft, and they just crimped it on. After that time the cooling fans used to come loose and disintegrate that made a hell of a lot of racket, but the biggest problem with this motor was the very low starting to work we did thousands of service calls just unstick the motor. We used to have to show the customer how to get down on the floor. Take the panel off and unstick the motor so they could use, their dishwasher. When customers went away on vacation, they would always come home and find the dishwasher stuck in unusable, we had a good bit of luck by having the customer put a quarter cup of cooking oil in the sump of the dishwasher and running it for a few minutes before they went on vacation and then it seemed like it was less apt to have a stock seal and an unusable dishwasher when they got home. The other minor issue with the shaded pole motors was the unnerving sound they made when pumping water because the speed constantly varied and it sounded like an animal straining.

The other bad problem with this pump side is GE never could get a trip shaft seal to not leak (one old GE repairman I knew always claimed GE couldn’t get a decent seal on anything as evidence by the number of GE filter flow washers that leaked oil either top or bottom of the transmission )As a result of the leaking from the trip shaft, countless customers, homes had floor damage under the dishwasher that was about the only good thing about the shaded pole motor is all that hot air blowing around under the dishwasher did help dry up leaking water and many many customers resorted to putting cookie sheet or low baking pan under the pump assembly with sponges in it so that the pump would dry up the water from the operation of the dishwasher.

The best motor in any home dishwasher, of course was the Hobart built KitchenAid motors. They not only had ball bearings with decent water protection, but they also had a real stainless steel shaft so the pumps were rebuild easily.

Generally dishwashers with the horizontal motor had less failures because the water leaks would not go into the motor as easily, but the real key to a good dishwasher. Motor is good bearings and good protection from water that was one of the downfalls of D&M dishwashers Even though they had a nice robust motor, it only had sleeve bearings. It did not have ball bearings like all the better machines such as KitchenAid whirlpool Maytag.

John

 

[pierreandreply4]

dishwasher i remember that lasted was this dm kenmore from

dishwasher i remember that lasted a long time was this dm kenmore dishwasher credit to the site owner for the pic i am using since i had the same model portble but in gold color

 

[reactor]

quiet motors, John's diatribe

Jerome,

The "quieter" motors began being used in the 90's model General Electric dishwashers. They also had a cooling fan, but the fans were much smaller and unobtrusive than the previous induction motors that were used. The permanent capacitor motors draw less current and run cooler than conventional motors and do not need a larger fan.

Disregard John's usual childish attacks on General Electric dishwashers. No one asked anything about his opinion of GE dishwashers. All that was asked by Jerome, was did the later GE dishwashers have a quieter motor, and the answer as I stated above is "yes." They began using them before the 2000's.

That's all that was asked, period. People are getting tired of John using this site as a forum for forcing his biased opinions, exaggerations, and sadly oftentimes outright lies, upon everyone.

Jerome's question was nothing more than a platform for John to use as a device to start blasting his biased diatribe upon everyone.

If it weren't for exaggeration and generalizations, John wouldn't be able to communicate at all. A true professional would not be using childish language such as "crap" to describe a dishwasher motor. Especially for the motors in General Electric's highly reliable dishwashers. GE and Whirlpool consistently were in the top dishwasher ratings, by Consumer Reports, for reliability for decades and Kitchen-Aid (Hobart) was not far behind. You don't get such high reliability ratings by producing shabby motors. Even John stated they were reliable.


Most of John's words are subjective, not quantitative. How many here have ever encountered a bad non-capacitor motor in a vintage GE dishwasher? How many have encountered a leak, in a seal, of a GE dishwasher? Probably few of you, if any.

John tends to exaggerate to promote his biases. Just as he used Jerome's question, which was unrelated to anything but sound level, as a springboard to force his negative opinions on you.

All someone need do is ask a simple question, such as Jerome did, post a vintage appliance on Marketplace or proudly post an appliance find of theirs. If it is not one of John's favorites, he finds it necessary to attack and denigrate it, often while promoting his favorite.

As previous posts prove, John is extraordinarily jealous of GE dishwashers and Maytag Reverse dishwashers as they often had CU ratings as good as, and at times exceeding, his favorites of Whirlpool and Hobart Kitchen-Aid.

There no reason for him to have this psychotic jealousy and use people's posts as platforms for his propagandizing. They are all good machines, each with differences that may endear them to one member or another in different ways.

General Electric dishwashers with the pre-capacitor motors were/are very reliable and exemplary performers. So were Whirlpools, Maytags and Hobart Kitchen Aids.

Continually using AW.org as a platform for forcing one's opinions upon others, denigrating others opinions and building one's ego is not what it's all about.[this post was last edited: 7/17/2024-12:31]

 

[steved]

it had feet on the bottom on the sides of the access panel that would pop out when you opened the door to keep it from tipping over when a loaded rack of dishes was rolled out. no other dishwasher did that, especially kitchenaids! this was a serious infraction and i hated that!

IIRC, Whirlpool frontloading portables had that feature.

 

An anti-tip feature was also found on Hotpoint-design convertible dishwashers. Two legs were extended when the door was opened. Westinghouse featured a "break-away" door hinge arrangement. I'm not exactly clear how that worked.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to reactor

Thank you for the answer. I've noticed that the later GE dishwashers sounded quieter. Maybe I didn't notice the cooling fan from the late 1990s models onward. The Kenmore by GE that I had used a cooling fan. It had 4 buttons: 2 for cycles and the other 2 for heat dry. The off position on the timer was at the 12:00 position. To start it, all you had to do was turn the dial 2 clicks with the door locked, then it would start. It would occasionally do the buzzing noise as if something was caught in the pump. roughly a year later in 2004, I went to my dad's workplace and I heard the dishwasher running. There was that familiar sound. Then a month later that same year, There was another GE dishwasher that was quiter. This time, the off position was at the 10:00 position. My dad's coworker told me that the dishwasher was so loud (the one that was there before the quieter model).[this post was last edited: 7/21/2024-23:18]

 

[gelaundry4ever]

whirlpool point voyager

I've noticed that the Whirlpool point voyager dishwasher wash pumps sounded similar to the GE shaded pole motor, but at a higher pitch without the large cooling fan. I suspected it was a PSC motor. This was true for me when I got another Kenmore which was a tall tub by Whirlpool. when my mom moved into her present home in 2007, there was an actual Whirlpool Gold dishwasher there. I remember when she ran it, that familiar sound brought back memories. I'm speaking from experience. The sprays may have sounded different between the GE and Whirlpool built Kenmores, but their motors sounded similar during the wash/rinse cycles.

 

[combo52]

Whirlpool point voyager motor versus GE shaded pole motor

Hi Jerome , There was nothing similar in sound between these two very different motors, the whirlpool was a 3450 RPM permanent split capacitor Motor that was a full 1/5 hp. You really didn’t hear the motor at all in the whirlpool dishwasher. It started quickly never had any trouble with starting to work. It ran at the same consistent speed. This was very different than the GE with the new loud cooling fan. That labored was less than 1/6 of a horsepower in fact GE never claimed a horsepower on it. It was so low and it would look so ridiculous next to any other brand. The GE motor ran varying speeds, depending on load it rattled and carried on when it finished draining as the motor was still running.

It had starting low torque and one of the most frequent service calls on. It was to just actually go and get underneath the machine and give the motors fan a spin so that it could work again every time people went on vacation , the thing would get stuck, we used to have to show people how to put a 1/4 cup of cooking oil in the sump of the dishwasher and run it for a little while before they went on a vacation so they wouldn’t have to pay for another service call to get their dishwasher operate when they got back lol

There is simply no defending the shaded pole motor that GE used. It was the cheapest motor to make it did get the job done but the biggest thing that GE dishwashers did throughout the 60s and 70s was reserve a spot in kitchens after builders installed a new GE dishwasher for a real dishwasher. These two different dishwashers and motors and pump systems did not sound the same at all. Nobody would ever mistake a cheap GE dishwasher with a shaded pole motor for a dishwasher that had a real constant speed 3450 RPM motor.

Jerome You claimed to have this great sense of hearing things but claiming these two dishwashers sound even similar it’s like claiming an air cooled Volkswagen beetle sounds like a Toyota Corolla there is simply no similarity in the sound these two dishwashers make.

Representatives from KitchenAid whirlpool and Maytag all told me at various times that GE was responsible for more than one quarter of their dishwasher sales because once people got used to having a dishwasher and once the thing rusted out or broke down, they didn’t want broken piece of equipment in their kitchen, and they would go out and look for a good dishwasher we owe so many of these dishwashers to builders for making a space in kitchens for a dishwasher.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

whirlpool tall tub

Have you not heard the Whirlpool tall tubs from the early 2000's running? If you listen closely, the pumps from GE and Whirlpool do sound somewhat similar. The Whirlpool horizontal pumps sounded quieter. This was noticeable with tiny suds in the tub all the while the spray being constant provided there was enough water.
I asked my dad one time, "What does our new dishwasher sound like?" and he said, "Similar to our old one." This was back in 2004. I first heard it running before I left to go to TSBVI on the bus, and noticed that it did sound similar to the GE/Kenmore. It was a Whirlpool/Kenmore tall tub.

 

[Chetlaham]

There is one thing GE shaded pole motors could do over all other competitors: last 40+ years, on a grand scale. Cheap motors that managed to rival Hobart.

 

[reactor]

John's dribble

Don't mind John's insatiable desire to force his opinions on you and everyone else on this site, Jerome.

Now he is telling you what you did and didn't hear. It's the same old story, John is jealous of GE tower wash dishwashers and Maytag Reverse racks as many if not consider them superior to Whirlpool dishwashers. Yes, in many years they have even been ranked higher than Whirlpool, in Consumer Reports Ratings. GE and Whirlpool almost always vied for the highest ranks in reliability.

Most of us on this site have the intellect to know that Whirlpool, Maytag and General electric all produced very fine dishwashers. they all wash dishes well and they all had fine repair records.

John demonstrates the emotional maturation level of a three to four year old child, in many respects. He has to think he is right, and he wants everyone to believe that he is the ultimate of opinions on this site.

John has a selective memory that only remembers things that agree with his internal biases. Especially when it comes to Whirlpool. Anytime he can attack Whirlpool's competitors, or those on this site who have differing opinion, than he, should get ready for an attack. Just like a small spoiled child who reaches out in anger when he doesn't get his way.

Lefever's selective memory, his ability to generalize and exaggerate out of reality, coupled with his outright lies, are legendary on this site. His disrespectful treatment of other members who disagree with him are legendary, as well. John reacts as a child when his lies and exaggerations are attacked, or even questioned for that matter.

GE's motors are the heart of the dishwasher, and you don't get consistently high reliability ratings in consumer Report, for decades, by having a faulty motor. I have used and/or collected GE dishwashers for slightly over fifty years, straight. Never once did I have a motor failure. Not once.

I did recently have a bearing, in one of GE's newer Siemens fixed capacitor motors get noisy. That was the only motor issue I ever had. Period.

The older induction motors were not noisy, not by most normal people's standards. Because a motor is audible does not make it noisy. Although "noisy" is a qualitative term meaning different things to different people. We have talked about the sound of the GE pre-capacitor motors, many times on this sight. It is distinctive. My qualitative feeling is is it is low rhythmic drone, comforting and soothing.

My definition of noisy would be if something inhibits conversation, or interferes with a television in the kitchen, etc. GE's motor noise is background noise. You can easily have a conversation with one someone standing directly in the front of the machine, no auditory competition at all.

John calls it "noisy" as he wants to denigrate virtually anything that is not Whirlpool, and to a lesser degree Hobart/Kitchen-Aid made.

Just take Joh with a grain of salt. He is becoming a laughing stock of this site, with his child-like behavior. However, there is nothing humorous about his disrespect and denigration of our members on this site.

Virtually any site, nowadays, has a few contributors who are psychologically unsound and are present to build their ego and compensate for their emotional insecurities. It's a sad fact of life.

Don't let anyone tell you what you heard, didn't hear or tell you your opinion is right or wrong. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it and allowed to share it without getting told you are wrong by John. He does not run the site, he is not the most intelligent on this site and he certainly does not have the engineering skills of many of the members this site.

We appreciate your comments and your questions, Jerome.

 

[Chetlaham]

Gaslighting

Reactor, I believe the term you're searching for is gaslighting. The manipulation of facts coupled with the disparagement of someones character in hopes of getting the victim to question their own sanity, reasoning or perception.  We all know what we heard, we all know what we saw, we all know what we smelled, we all know what we experienced, we all know what we lived. We are not wrong and neither is our inference, synthesis or conclusions. We are lucid and our reasons are sound. Real world data only vindicates us. GE motors are fine motors and millions of GE dishwashers continue to validate the old shaded pole motors while millions of new dishwashers, especially Whirlpool, prove just how reliable the old design was and how short lived new motors really are.