The new energy labels - Shocking in 2 ways

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

H

henene4

Well-known member
Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
4,323
Location
Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)
So, I am actually awaiting delivery of a new washer (Wednesday) and I still am out from work (we will have closed at least until March 7th, projected).

Thus I thought hey, 2 weeks till the new labels will be shown officially.
Might as well calculate the ratings of some appliances.

Now these calculations are not hard per se, just kind of annoying.
So I only did them for washers and dishwashers, but I made them in a simple to use google doc.

I'll share them here.
All I ask you to do is if you want to play around with them to download them and use them then.
Or to at least not mess with the second page (Calculations).
This is an online doc, if you change something it will be visible to every other person following the link.

So just download it and open it on your desktop, that would be the best for everyone.

Washers:


Dishwashers:


The more shocking thing is:

Washers easily reach class A.
Most Eco 40-60 cycles achieve that.

However dishwashers will SUCK.
I own and use a Miele G7100SCi, one of the most efficent DW out there today.
It uses 0,75kWh for 14 place settings.
That is currently class A+++ -10%.

Yet it gets an D (though scraping verry close to C).

There really isn't a whole lot more efficent out there.
And its that bad.
Like...
What?
 
So I double checked

The most efficent DW available technically in germany from a know german brand is Mieles G6000 series at 0,67kWh.
These reach class C under the new rating system - but are "last gen"?!?

The thing is the VZug now lists DW on their german website.
And you can buy them through the online shop.

They might have the ONLY A-rated DW on the market by March.
Their V6000 with heatpump uses a whopping 0,49kWh putting it square in the A-class.

BUT:
- This DW cost 2000€ or more.
- The Eco-cycle runs 5h 55min. All other cycles are barely any more efficent and actually use more water from what I undestand.
- It is what would be considered "tall tub" height over here (at least 87cm height of installation space) while only being "standard tub" tub height.

So I couldn't even fit it in my kitchen.

On slimline DW, both Miele and Bosch run into class D with their A+++ machines, though interestingly, the Miele with its lower rated capacity is a little more efficent, much closer to C.

There is one machine on the market my calculation can't account for:
There is a Gorenje 45cm DW rated at 11 place settings which slips through my if-statement (there are 2 different virtual comparison machines; one for DW with at least 10 place settings and a width larger then 50cm and one for DW with a capacity up to 9 or a width up to 50cm; my calculation checks for only load size).
That would run as C.

So, if Miele could pump up their load size to that of the Gorenje machine, they could bump up verry close to a B.

I'm beginning to question if A is possible without a heatpump.

Funny neough as I checked again now:

Gorenje has a full size 16 plate setting DW running at 0,76kWh making it class C.

I would guess the trend in the comming months/years will be more place settings.
 
VZug

VZug is a "high end" swizz appliance manufacturer and they have a couple of things that "no one else has" (for example a EU full size oven-microwave-steamer-combo).

A couple of years ago they launched the first ever washing machine with heat pump heating.

A couple of years later they added that to a dishwasher as well.

Main idea is that the heat pump pulls heat from the surrounding area and puts it into the wash water.

On washers that works quite well.

The system is effective up to 40-50C, but of course isn't quite as fast at heating (about 1kW of power).
Paired with a normal resistive heater (about 2kW) the system is quite versatile.

You can choose 3 different economy settings.

The least efficient runs both heaters simultaneously making for a very high heating power.
With that it claims to still be 10% more efficient compared to the same machine just using it's normal heater.

The next level still maintains normal wash temperatures but heats solely with the heat pump until that is no longer effective.
That saves up to 30%.
Especially in lower temp cycles it makes a huge difference.

The next step up again drops the main wash temperature.
Especially on higher temp cycles that saves some more at the trade off of even longer wash times.
Basically you can get a 60C result just with the heat pump.

Though long cycles are kind of a stretch.
The default Cottons 40 is about 2h for a full load, 60 just a little more.
That is at the medium setting.

On DW the system is somewhat - odd?
Cycle times are kept largely the same since a claim to fame for these DW is their speed.

It saves anywhere from nothing to 0.1kWh on normal cycles.

The Eco cycle on the non heat pump DW is anywhere from 5h 50min to 6h 30mim and uses about 0.67kWh.
With the heat pump it takes 5h 55min and uses 0.485kWh.

The trade off is that a) the DW has no water storage tank (can't save the final rinse water for the next pre rinse) and b) the water ways are somewhat larger and thus fill Levels are naturally somewhat larger.

There is an Eco option for most cycles.
On the normal machine that just drops wash temp.

On the heat pump model that extends the cycle significantly but saves up to 30% supposedly.

The biggest caviat is that the DW is just a bad deal compared to the washer.

On the washer, you now trade off automatic liquid dosing (side note: their liquid dosing system is genius, the tanks are in a second drawer on the opposite side to the main drawer, no stopping and still a full normal drawe) and about 200€ or so for a very efficient system that actually saves significant amounts of energy in everyday use without extraordinary cycle times or dropped temps.

The DW however has no third rack, is extra high, has a "smaller" inner size, saves not all that much in day to day use and is priced 500€ and up over the non heat pump model.

Yeah there is one heat pump DW, but it is far from perfect.
 
>> Most built in stuff is F or E.
>> Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated.
>> My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow...

In the big picture, this is a good thing.

What good is the rating system to consumers, if everything gets an A?
As efficiencies continue improving, do we just keep adding pluses?
How much better is an A+++++++++ dishwasher than an A++++++++ model?

Whenever a scale is established with the intention of showing relative differences, it has to be updated over time as those items being measured evolve.
 
That is right Sean. Just think people are not even informed that much of the rating is based over the eco cycles which are cycles they basically never pick as they take forever.

Obsessed with this stupid letter European rating they do not understand anuyhing of it but the letter.[this post was last edited: 5/17/2021-19:51]
 
They just put those labels on appliances so gullible consumers who don’t know any better but that appliance then start kvetching that it doesn’t work and that it’s not holding up. Might look like it uses less energy but in reality it’s a whole lot different since things are always different in the real world compared to a test/engineering lab.
 
Energy Guides On New Appliances Etc.

Are a great way to inform consumers about energy usage and still allow freedom of choice when you purchase a new appliance, I do not understand why anyone of you are complaining about them.

 

Would you rather the EU hid the information ?,

 

You might accidentally go out and buy an efficient appliance, LOL

 

But seriously the saving of energy and fuel these cheap to add stickers have allowed world wide is enormous, I don't know anyone that buys a new car or even refrigerator without looking at them.

 

John L.
 
No they did not IMO.
Also, what I said was about the crazy labels and letter system not labels in general which could be and sometimes are a good thing.
And I agree that is mostly a bait and switch thing. "Buy me cuz I'm better" sticker.
With this letter system what people do is walking into a store and reach for the A's and the ones with more + not even aware of how the ratings is calculated and works. Yet they are obsessed only by a letter and pluses.
Much that they also believe that by buying a ++++ machine they will be able to run washer dishwasher and dryer at same time without exceeding the 3.3kwh that is the maximum a regular meter allows a home to pull over here.
So this let you understand how much they actually know, or Better Say, don't know.

They usually are unaware that is primarily calculated on the Eco cycles, cycles that they basically end up using rarely and more than often forget about.
It is totally missing the time factor which is important to have a better understanding.
I mean ok, you have a machine that in that particular cycle will use half a liter less and 300 Watts less hence deserve a plus, no doubts, but take 35 mins longer. Question is: Do you really want that? Is your €100-€200 more on the price tag worth it? Is it worth the potential saving on Electric bills?
Some attentive studies says it is not in many cases.
Anyway.
Nobody is put in front of this question.
Again clueless and selling people even more.

And I will explain this better later.
Selling personnel especially in chain stores are usually more clueless than buyers are and NEVER tells it like it is but just say yes or no same as asking questions to a magic ball.
So this usually have two effects, not only a purchaser is tempted to replace their slightly older machine with some with a couple of + more, but also leads a purchaser to spend more on a model with a couple + more when the cheaper other next to it will use just as much in the other cycles, yet they are convinced that the rating is about all the cycles and that the machine will always use less or be better than another which is not true.
As I was saying is very frequent on Facebook appliances groups also to find people unaware of all the rating thing, and as it turns out you find them asking "why the eco cycle takes the double of the normal?" Sometimes they ask if their machine is defective " Help my new dishwasher is working since 2hrs now, think it is broken it wont finish'.
And you got to explain them what actually eco means, about the ratings and that for istance a 60°c eco cycle Will not reach 60°c actually etc..
Not to mention the maintenance problems Eco cycles often cause and how many machine cleaning cycles you'll have to run after. Always if they will do them before seals bearings or spiders rottens
After aknowledging it many feels kind of "ripped off"... They come down to reality from their bubbles.
Of course that's also their fault not to do their own homeworks, but as they make this huge fuss about letters they are brought to make a bigger deal than it actually is.
Again, obsessed.
A few decide to use those endless cycles during the night and alternate with others (wise choice) most decide to just forget about whatever in the ECO chart and many others instead pick whatever cycle does it shorter as they want it done quick.
I also do not find the washing ability rating to be truthful at all.

[this post was last edited: 5/18/2021-11:07]
 
And as we are talking about it, another thing I will never understand about Europe's washer-dryer market is why nobody regulated how the declared capacity is expressed.
Because the kilograms thing is also more than often a bait and switch and pretty dumb.
You had models with the exact same basket mentioning different capacities.
Kilograms means nothing, 8kg of thick jeans take less space than 8kg of towels, not to mention synthetics.
Based on this manufacturers can basically write whatever they want.
And since also capacity plays a fundamental role picking a new machine what I would rather like to see from EU is to forbid Kg's advertising but shift to capacity in liters.
That way you cannot deceive.
 
?

That's the EU energy label.
It is literally mandated by law AND with the new energy label repairability requirements went into affect as well.

A whole country left the EU due to this.

Dyson sued the EU and won so the vacuum energy label was scrapped.

Sources for you claims?
 

Similar threads

H
The new EU energy label for dryers - coming mid 2025
2
Replies
29
Views
43
launderess
launderess
W
confused between 3 different "heavy" cycles on Bosch TOL dishwasher
Replies
1
Views
12
logixx
logixx
maytagneptune
Supco Shock Absorbers are JUNK
Replies
5
Views
11
maytagneptune
maytagneptune
M
Whirlpool Washer Repair
Replies
0
Views
14
maytaglover68
M
G
dishomat dreams and ideas
3 4 5
Replies
94
Views
95
maytaga806
M

Latest posts

Back
Top