The new energy labels - Shocking in 2 ways

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henene4

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So, I am actually awaiting delivery of a new washer (Wednesday) and I still am out from work (we will have closed at least until March 7th, projected).

Thus I thought hey, 2 weeks till the new labels will be shown officially.
Might as well calculate the ratings of some appliances.

Now these calculations are not hard per se, just kind of annoying.
So I only did them for washers and dishwashers, but I made them in a simple to use google doc.

I'll share them here.
All I ask you to do is if you want to play around with them to download them and use them then.
Or to at least not mess with the second page (Calculations).
This is an online doc, if you change something it will be visible to every other person following the link.

So just download it and open it on your desktop, that would be the best for everyone.

Washers:


Dishwashers:


The more shocking thing is:

Washers easily reach class A.
Most Eco 40-60 cycles achieve that.

However dishwashers will SUCK.
I own and use a Miele G7100SCi, one of the most efficent DW out there today.
It uses 0,75kWh for 14 place settings.
That is currently class A+++ -10%.

Yet it gets an D (though scraping verry close to C).

There really isn't a whole lot more efficent out there.
And its that bad.
Like...
What?
 
So I double checked

The most efficent DW available technically in germany from a know german brand is Mieles G6000 series at 0,67kWh.
These reach class C under the new rating system - but are "last gen"?!?

The thing is the VZug now lists DW on their german website.
And you can buy them through the online shop.

They might have the ONLY A-rated DW on the market by March.
Their V6000 with heatpump uses a whopping 0,49kWh putting it square in the A-class.

BUT:
- This DW cost 2000€ or more.
- The Eco-cycle runs 5h 55min. All other cycles are barely any more efficent and actually use more water from what I undestand.
- It is what would be considered "tall tub" height over here (at least 87cm height of installation space) while only being "standard tub" tub height.

So I couldn't even fit it in my kitchen.

On slimline DW, both Miele and Bosch run into class D with their A+++ machines, though interestingly, the Miele with its lower rated capacity is a little more efficent, much closer to C.

There is one machine on the market my calculation can't account for:
There is a Gorenje 45cm DW rated at 11 place settings which slips through my if-statement (there are 2 different virtual comparison machines; one for DW with at least 10 place settings and a width larger then 50cm and one for DW with a capacity up to 9 or a width up to 50cm; my calculation checks for only load size).
That would run as C.

So, if Miele could pump up their load size to that of the Gorenje machine, they could bump up verry close to a B.

I'm beginning to question if A is possible without a heatpump.

Funny neough as I checked again now:

Gorenje has a full size 16 plate setting DW running at 0,76kWh making it class C.

I would guess the trend in the comming months/years will be more place settings.
 
VZug

VZug is a "high end" swizz appliance manufacturer and they have a couple of things that "no one else has" (for example a EU full size oven-microwave-steamer-combo).

A couple of years ago they launched the first ever washing machine with heat pump heating.

A couple of years later they added that to a dishwasher as well.

Main idea is that the heat pump pulls heat from the surrounding area and puts it into the wash water.

On washers that works quite well.

The system is effective up to 40-50C, but of course isn't quite as fast at heating (about 1kW of power).
Paired with a normal resistive heater (about 2kW) the system is quite versatile.

You can choose 3 different economy settings.

The least efficient runs both heaters simultaneously making for a very high heating power.
With that it claims to still be 10% more efficient compared to the same machine just using it's normal heater.

The next level still maintains normal wash temperatures but heats solely with the heat pump until that is no longer effective.
That saves up to 30%.
Especially in lower temp cycles it makes a huge difference.

The next step up again drops the main wash temperature.
Especially on higher temp cycles that saves some more at the trade off of even longer wash times.
Basically you can get a 60C result just with the heat pump.

Though long cycles are kind of a stretch.
The default Cottons 40 is about 2h for a full load, 60 just a little more.
That is at the medium setting.

On DW the system is somewhat - odd?
Cycle times are kept largely the same since a claim to fame for these DW is their speed.

It saves anywhere from nothing to 0.1kWh on normal cycles.

The Eco cycle on the non heat pump DW is anywhere from 5h 50min to 6h 30mim and uses about 0.67kWh.
With the heat pump it takes 5h 55min and uses 0.485kWh.

The trade off is that a) the DW has no water storage tank (can't save the final rinse water for the next pre rinse) and b) the water ways are somewhat larger and thus fill Levels are naturally somewhat larger.

There is an Eco option for most cycles.
On the normal machine that just drops wash temp.

On the heat pump model that extends the cycle significantly but saves up to 30% supposedly.

The biggest caviat is that the DW is just a bad deal compared to the washer.

On the washer, you now trade off automatic liquid dosing (side note: their liquid dosing system is genius, the tanks are in a second drawer on the opposite side to the main drawer, no stopping and still a full normal drawe) and about 200€ or so for a very efficient system that actually saves significant amounts of energy in everyday use without extraordinary cycle times or dropped temps.

The DW however has no third rack, is extra high, has a "smaller" inner size, saves not all that much in day to day use and is priced 500€ and up over the non heat pump model.

Yeah there is one heat pump DW, but it is far from perfect.
 
>> Most built in stuff is F or E.
>> Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated.
>> My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow...

In the big picture, this is a good thing.

What good is the rating system to consumers, if everything gets an A?
As efficiencies continue improving, do we just keep adding pluses?
How much better is an A+++++++++ dishwasher than an A++++++++ model?

Whenever a scale is established with the intention of showing relative differences, it has to be updated over time as those items being measured evolve.
 
That is right Sean. Just think people are not even informed that much of the rating is based over the eco cycles which are cycles they basically never pick as they take forever.

Obsessed with this stupid letter European rating they do not understand anuyhing of it but the letter.[this post was last edited: 5/17/2021-19:51]
 
They just put those labels on appliances so gullible consumers who don’t know any better but that appliance then start kvetching that it doesn’t work and that it’s not holding up. Might look like it uses less energy but in reality it’s a whole lot different since things are always different in the real world compared to a test/engineering lab.
 
Energy Guides On New Appliances Etc.

Are a great way to inform consumers about energy usage and still allow freedom of choice when you purchase a new appliance, I do not understand why anyone of you are complaining about them.

 

Would you rather the EU hid the information ?,

 

You might accidentally go out and buy an efficient appliance, LOL

 

But seriously the saving of energy and fuel these cheap to add stickers have allowed world wide is enormous, I don't know anyone that buys a new car or even refrigerator without looking at them.

 

John L.
 
No they did not IMO.
Also, what I said was about the crazy labels and letter system not labels in general which could be and sometimes are a good thing.
And I agree that is mostly a bait and switch thing. "Buy me cuz I'm better" sticker.
With this letter system what people do is walking into a store and reach for the A's and the ones with more + not even aware of how the ratings is calculated and works. Yet they are obsessed only by a letter and pluses.
Much that they also believe that by buying a ++++ machine they will be able to run washer dishwasher and dryer at same time without exceeding the 3.3kwh that is the maximum a regular meter allows a home to pull over here.
So this let you understand how much they actually know, or Better Say, don't know.

They usually are unaware that is primarily calculated on the Eco cycles, cycles that they basically end up using rarely and more than often forget about.
It is totally missing the time factor which is important to have a better understanding.
I mean ok, you have a machine that in that particular cycle will use half a liter less and 300 Watts less hence deserve a plus, no doubts, but take 35 mins longer. Question is: Do you really want that? Is your €100-€200 more on the price tag worth it? Is it worth the potential saving on Electric bills?
Some attentive studies says it is not in many cases.
Anyway.
Nobody is put in front of this question.
Again clueless and selling people even more.

And I will explain this better later.
Selling personnel especially in chain stores are usually more clueless than buyers are and NEVER tells it like it is but just say yes or no same as asking questions to a magic ball.
So this usually have two effects, not only a purchaser is tempted to replace their slightly older machine with some with a couple of + more, but also leads a purchaser to spend more on a model with a couple + more when the cheaper other next to it will use just as much in the other cycles, yet they are convinced that the rating is about all the cycles and that the machine will always use less or be better than another which is not true.
As I was saying is very frequent on Facebook appliances groups also to find people unaware of all the rating thing, and as it turns out you find them asking "why the eco cycle takes the double of the normal?" Sometimes they ask if their machine is defective " Help my new dishwasher is working since 2hrs now, think it is broken it wont finish'.
And you got to explain them what actually eco means, about the ratings and that for istance a 60°c eco cycle Will not reach 60°c actually etc..
Not to mention the maintenance problems Eco cycles often cause and how many machine cleaning cycles you'll have to run after. Always if they will do them before seals bearings or spiders rottens
After aknowledging it many feels kind of "ripped off"... They come down to reality from their bubbles.
Of course that's also their fault not to do their own homeworks, but as they make this huge fuss about letters they are brought to make a bigger deal than it actually is.
Again, obsessed.
A few decide to use those endless cycles during the night and alternate with others (wise choice) most decide to just forget about whatever in the ECO chart and many others instead pick whatever cycle does it shorter as they want it done quick.
I also do not find the washing ability rating to be truthful at all.

[this post was last edited: 5/18/2021-11:07]
 
And as we are talking about it, another thing I will never understand about Europe's washer-dryer market is why nobody regulated how the declared capacity is expressed.
Because the kilograms thing is also more than often a bait and switch and pretty dumb.
You had models with the exact same basket mentioning different capacities.
Kilograms means nothing, 8kg of thick jeans take less space than 8kg of towels, not to mention synthetics.
Based on this manufacturers can basically write whatever they want.
And since also capacity plays a fundamental role picking a new machine what I would rather like to see from EU is to forbid Kg's advertising but shift to capacity in liters.
That way you cannot deceive.
 
?

That's the EU energy label.
It is literally mandated by law AND with the new energy label repairability requirements went into affect as well.

A whole country left the EU due to this.

Dyson sued the EU and won so the vacuum energy label was scrapped.

Sources for you claims?
 
Henrik
I do not understand your comments.
Did somebody say that or are these your considerations?
Anyway:

Yes they are mandated by law and like everything coming out of the EU is dumb and corrupt and blinking to China and manufacturers now involved with China.
As for the repairability requirements do you really think they are going to make any difference? Because I don't, incomplete requirements and silly.

About Brexit.
UK certainly did not leave because of Dyson LOL
But because they were sick and tired of Europe's dishonesty and wanting to command everything and only to advantage a couple ones, Germany primarily.

Say how big zucchini must be, how much milk you can export, how big clams must be, (Just think they wanted Italy to make cheese with dry milk LOL and expect not to get a "puncha on tha face") bans on ingredients, products etc... Nanny statism etc.
And a lot of other reasons including illegal immigration also resulting from how bad EU is managing migrant chrisis but vacuums or appliances.
In fact never heard say Boris Johnson say a word about vacuum cleaners.
Not a fan of Dyson myself, but I think that the lawsuit was legit (and apparently even a judge thought so as they won) testing vacuum cleaners when empty is not a real life condition, as soon those modern oil filter- like filters of chinese vacuums get some dust in them suction changes drastically hence vacums that sucked well when empty then "sucked" at sucking after awhile.
Dyson vacuums have a different system and wont cause these problems.
Always china made stuff but at least the design and particular technology is patented and British.
DeLonghi for istance just delegate technology and design to China. like them many others. "Just make something looking like this"...
Profit profit profit 🤑🤑🤑
But again not a fan of these.

Am currently using a 1970s 800w canister vacuum and with only 800watts outperrorms 6 times those chinese 1600w ones. Plus filter is washable in the washer.
Really you gotta see the suction it got only using 800watts!

Regarding how labels makes a person willing to buy a new appliance, it is simple.

If your machine needs say a sily thing such as a new thermostat and it is an A and you walk in a store and see a A++++++ on offer.
Someone might well be thinking not to fix the thermostat but buy that A+++++ machine as by having all those + will think it'll give a saving on electric and it'll be a huge incentive not to fix the old but buy the new one, even though that saving just won't be real as explained in my other reply.
The wise thing to do would have been spend your 50-80 euros get it fixed, what actually happens is that they think the new will be better and Will repay itself with money spared on bills so go out and buy the new one.
Is the saving going to happen? No.

[this post was last edited: 5/18/2021-19:13]
 
Oh China??

They may be communist, but who lives in the nice large houses adjacent to the Shanghai aeroport? who golf's on the numerous beutiful golf courses they have now?
Whom drives all the Audi, BMW, Buicks, Mercedes, VW's, Cherry, Rowe', etc., etc. cars there now? Until we traded with China, they were all but starving. They are ahead of us in high speed rail, mag Lev., light rail, not to mention tech.and the future og artificial intelect for robotics.
You will never change it. The world as we now know it will end first.
You come here and buy certain GM (Cadillac) vehichles, they have China owned Fauyju glass in them made in Dayton Ohio.
 
Inh

Who lives in those places?

Probably some fat western a or chinese exploiter that made money over there exploiting and polluting thanks to the inhumane and rule-less system there.

People to envy? No thanks.

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Do you even travel </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">or read to see how the rest lives? LOL</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Big homes? There is not even the material space to make chinese people live in big homes!!</span>

And by all means not the size americans are used to.

<span style="font-size: 12pt;"> What you see is the 0.1% do you think the rest have those privileges? </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Or are those for those already rich that got richer that now deal in China as It Is becoming a superpower? So american big greedy companies mostly? </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Audi, BMW, Buicks, Mercedes, VW's, do Cherry, Rowe', etc. Are European and american cars, is not it weird rich folks over there wear drive and eat nothing that is Chinese? Answer yourself. Do you think rich chinese folks wear Prada or the "chingchung" junk dress that looks made by a blind seal or at best got cancirogen dyes? Do you  think their maids will vacuum with a junk china made Kenmore or a Haier or They got a  made in Wuppertal vorwerk? </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">They are proud of the 80% junk stuff they produce knowing it is junk? Or are rather proud they are screwing america hard and lubeless? Is their government planning for a pacific cohabitation or you see troubles coming once they take over!?</span>

You know, am kinda worried, don't know what to expect from a country where it is normal to produce and sell keychains with live animals trapped inside. That is just a silly example and don't you dare say i'm racist! These are facts.

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">As for technology, I'd like to remind who taught them and who could still be ahead of them, of course granted that some folks in a certain country are rather busy getting back on track and not too busy self loathing and self spanking or self burning looting their cities over fake racism issues and bullshit and impeaching annoying patriots only to elect a senile moron colluded with China as well. </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">People thinking like that are the ruin of USA. So sad. </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">But again do you really like drag politics out of the blue when it got nothing to do? One mentions chinese made junk vacuums and you come over with your deliriums over china golf courses for the rich bastards? Geez you mus be one of those eating thanks to China! LOL</span>

[this post was last edited: 5/20/2021-12:12]
 
An example of the destructive mindset

Again it is everything so damn hilarious!😂😂😂

People do (rightly) boycott a pasta brand because allegedly homophobic.

At the same time they are sold for life to a brand if they decide to turn the logo rainbow in June. Marketing. In 201* that Is marketing. If they did that back in '95-98'  2000ish that'd been taking a stance, you know when even the beloved Killary believed marriage was man-woman only.

They now see racism even in butter packages and pancake mixes,  but they must be american or ain't worth boycottin'!!! They are perfectly fine to buy chinese because China is absolutely known to be "human rights paradise" right?  Or buy whatever goods from a company that is ethical only on the cover.
Racism homophobia etc is non existent there!

An example to follow Indeed! 😂😂😂

[this post was last edited: 5/20/2021-11:55]
 
Look How Many People On This Website

Are all giddy about buying their next washer from China with the LG name on it.

 

If I live to be a 100 I will never buy Chinese appliances as long as we make great washers and dryers here in Union factories from WP and MT.

 

And we build hands down the best full sized washers and dryers in the world by the worlds largest builder of commercial laundry equipment Speed Queen, Union built in Wisconsin.

 

The good news on SQ FL washers is the price has come down, we are selling them for about $1600, Delivered and installed, still with a 5 year P&L warranty, not bad for a washer that will outlast 2 or 3 regular home machines and best of all are simple to fix for do-it-your-selfers.

 

John L.
 
I have also seen European and italian washer people being giddy over getting a Candy as it became Haier owned.

Especially the ones for which Candy was the all time favourite , and they never believed some day Candy would not be Candy anymore.

But as they say that's crying over spilled milk...

Because when it was time to face reality and at least admit what was what<span style="font-size: 12pt;"> you had them on total denial .</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Claiming cheap china made Candy boards and parts were as sturdy as a tank and many even claimed there was no difference with a Miele. A MIELE!!! LOL</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Drooling over a punch in the guts such as a Candy Bianca when it cane out because it "talked". Washing? That's another matter.</span>

This did not prevent China to knock on Fumagalli's door one day and buy the brand as he was sick and tired to deal with a system that favourites china and constantly gets in the way if one (for some weird reason) still have their manufacturing in the same country the Company headquarter is.

 

Unfair competition.

Same could one day happen to SQ too. Especially as  other companies are incited to put profit in front of enviroinment and quality and even get a pat on the back from certain politicians.

Candy of course wasn't a world leader like Alliance, which let's be honest,  Is so like Miele by being into the big commercial laundry  if it had to rely on domestic and coin laundry only it'd be dead already  not because Is not good but cuz it is too good.

 

But was not even the last wheel of the wagon.

The company ate Hoover, Zerowatt, Otsein...It  eventually got eaten by the chinese. 

Most Italians and Europeans are not even aware of the change.

It just quickly passed on some journals, those kind of things always do pass unnoticed and never gets properly reported as people would (rightly) perceive something just Is not right. You know "how come"?

People Just go out and buy..and again look at the letter on a tag a capacity and how many leds it got,  eventually  the Turkish will soon become chinese. Am already seeing the competition Akai vs Beko lately.

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 5/20/2021-14:10]
 
yeah, sheesh. Isn't one of the rules to keep politics out of the non-paid forums?

the production move to china isn't surprising, and neither is the cost cutting. capitalism is extremely profit motivated, and if the CEO of whirlpool can make an extra 300,000 a year by cutting costs on washing machines or something like that, they'll probably do it. right to repair is extremely important because of this. it takes a stance against planned obsolecence and insane cost cutting by requiring appliances to be easier to repair.
 
You are right Marco.

In fact I just recently made your exact same point for what concerns companies greediness, right to repair  and all of that  in another similar thread that went much or less like this one and was then moved to the dirty forum.

Again, I still need to understand what do Airports, golf  and all of that had to do with what was discussed.

But I just can't shut up.

Someone must really like Made in China or feel threatened by my views over China and companies that make stuff in China if mentioning china made vacuums is enough to trigger a discussion like that. 

 

[this post was last edited: 5/21/2021-05:00]
 
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