Not sure as the accuracy of this article, but I found it as a nice light read:
They Used To Last 50 Years
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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Used to be a saying, "when better automobiles are built, Buick will build them."
When customers demand quality over price, better, longer lasting appliances will be built.
Simple as that.
Until we get past how cheap can I get ______ fill in the blank, junk will abound and landfills will continue to accumulate barely used products.
When customers demand quality over price, better, longer lasting appliances will be built.
Simple as that.
Until we get past how cheap can I get ______ fill in the blank, junk will abound and landfills will continue to accumulate barely used products.
Consumers
Are to blame, but the manufactures are doing everything they can to make them delusional. As the article says, few people know (or care) that every single brand is owned by a few. People are mislead that low water, no longevity and glitzy garbage is progress. Ok, maybe low water in a front load, but come on. Everything is offset by filling up landfills.
Are to blame, but the manufactures are doing everything they can to make them delusional. As the article says, few people know (or care) that every single brand is owned by a few. People are mislead that low water, no longevity and glitzy garbage is progress. Ok, maybe low water in a front load, but come on. Everything is offset by filling up landfills.
Decline in quality of white goods has been talked about
For years...
On the one hand yes, major appliances which by definition are supposed to last at least ten years (if not more), often barely reach that point before breaking down. By that we mean today that a part will fail and the cost of repair equals or is more than it is worth repair. However there is a flip side, the cost of major appliances has declined over the years making them more widely accessible to many.
Miele, Whirlpool, and other major manufactures of laundry appliances know fully well how to build things to last; the do so for their commercial line all the time. However the cheapest commercial front loader would likely set you back several thousand (am excluding SQ from this example), where as you can pick up a decent H-axis washer for under $1.5k or even below $800k.
Many early makers of appliances such as GM saw where things were going early on IIRC, and got out of that business. Leaving aside new home sales the bulk of appliance purchases are from those seeking to replace an existing unit for whatever reason. If you build things to last say fifty years, that is going to cut into new sales. This isn't the 1950's where many will throw out a perfectly good appliance just because it is a few years old. Ok, some people do but they are a small minority.
For years...
On the one hand yes, major appliances which by definition are supposed to last at least ten years (if not more), often barely reach that point before breaking down. By that we mean today that a part will fail and the cost of repair equals or is more than it is worth repair. However there is a flip side, the cost of major appliances has declined over the years making them more widely accessible to many.
Miele, Whirlpool, and other major manufactures of laundry appliances know fully well how to build things to last; the do so for their commercial line all the time. However the cheapest commercial front loader would likely set you back several thousand (am excluding SQ from this example), where as you can pick up a decent H-axis washer for under $1.5k or even below $800k.
Many early makers of appliances such as GM saw where things were going early on IIRC, and got out of that business. Leaving aside new home sales the bulk of appliance purchases are from those seeking to replace an existing unit for whatever reason. If you build things to last say fifty years, that is going to cut into new sales. This isn't the 1950's where many will throw out a perfectly good appliance just because it is a few years old. Ok, some people do but they are a small minority.
Yup and thanks 
Nothing but disinformation:
The noise isnt the issue, the wrinkled clothes arent the issue, the fact they will be shredded to bits while the same money can get you something that will last 5x longer without destroying your clothes is the real issue. Heck for just $400 extra you can get a SQ front load that will use less water than that thing. But people just don't see it or are ever told what happens to be reality. The market is saturated with 10,000 different variants of garbage by the same ruthless monopoly with consumer reports and other propaganda instruments trying to create an atmosphere of diversity and free choice via subversive pros and cons. This cleans a bit better but a bit nosier, this has steam but no buzzer, this has a buzzer and cleans better for only $20 more, so this is truly a winner.
Nothing but disinformation:
The noise isnt the issue, the wrinkled clothes arent the issue, the fact they will be shredded to bits while the same money can get you something that will last 5x longer without destroying your clothes is the real issue. Heck for just $400 extra you can get a SQ front load that will use less water than that thing. But people just don't see it or are ever told what happens to be reality. The market is saturated with 10,000 different variants of garbage by the same ruthless monopoly with consumer reports and other propaganda instruments trying to create an atmosphere of diversity and free choice via subversive pros and cons. This cleans a bit better but a bit nosier, this has steam but no buzzer, this has a buzzer and cleans better for only $20 more, so this is truly a winner.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
Yea
Combine the energy used to create appliances and the fact they will end up in a landfill in a few years, that would more than offset the supposed environmental friendliness of them. Hopefully any fool could understand this - but I guess not.
Knock on wood, but for 12 years now, I've had major luck with my modern appliances (if 2004 is considered modern by today's standards) All of my appliances are still going except the original dishwasher, which lasted just over 9 years. However, the fridge has had 2 minor repairs (minor being 100 to 200 each time), but still going.
Combine the energy used to create appliances and the fact they will end up in a landfill in a few years, that would more than offset the supposed environmental friendliness of them. Hopefully any fool could understand this - but I guess not.
Knock on wood, but for 12 years now, I've had major luck with my modern appliances (if 2004 is considered modern by today's standards) All of my appliances are still going except the original dishwasher, which lasted just over 9 years. However, the fridge has had 2 minor repairs (minor being 100 to 200 each time), but still going.
ilovewindex
Well-known member
Its Sad What WorldPOO has done
I have had several whirlpool appliances die a tragic death within there first year or so of life.. Hell even 6 weeks on a french door fridge I bought.. Thats not ok
The way there customer care treated me was even worse.. Thank god I bought it from sears.. SEARS made it right... Lowes made it right with the cabrio dryer whose electronics melted and the door that NEVER shut right... Sears replaced my Kenpool Dishwasher underwarranty because the tub cracked and the controls broke... 2010 Model Dishwasher, 2011 Model Dryer and a 2014 Model Fridge
I will always lookfoawrd to owing older whirlpool stuff.. Once i can sell this house and build my dream home in the next 2 years, I will get an older whirlpool sxs to replace my french door samsung
As of now, I am going to collect parts for the appliances i own.. Esp my convection microwave and washer... i will order a new drum and spider, computers, valves and so forth, so I have enough parts to rebuild it or keep it going a long while..Same with the microwave
I want to get another older Maytag Jet Clean dishwasher and restore it and keep it aside for when im done with this GE.. Its a fine unit, but new dishwashers, can't wash as well as old ones
Also the reason im getting my kitchenaid laundry set and going to order/buy a new GE top freezer soon as a second fridge... So then im fully covered
As time goes on, the less and less i like new appliances.. I really am sad samsung put that dumb door in the washer... it takes away from the astetics, reliablity and you can't watch it
I have had several whirlpool appliances die a tragic death within there first year or so of life.. Hell even 6 weeks on a french door fridge I bought.. Thats not ok
The way there customer care treated me was even worse.. Thank god I bought it from sears.. SEARS made it right... Lowes made it right with the cabrio dryer whose electronics melted and the door that NEVER shut right... Sears replaced my Kenpool Dishwasher underwarranty because the tub cracked and the controls broke... 2010 Model Dishwasher, 2011 Model Dryer and a 2014 Model Fridge
I will always lookfoawrd to owing older whirlpool stuff.. Once i can sell this house and build my dream home in the next 2 years, I will get an older whirlpool sxs to replace my french door samsung
As of now, I am going to collect parts for the appliances i own.. Esp my convection microwave and washer... i will order a new drum and spider, computers, valves and so forth, so I have enough parts to rebuild it or keep it going a long while..Same with the microwave
I want to get another older Maytag Jet Clean dishwasher and restore it and keep it aside for when im done with this GE.. Its a fine unit, but new dishwashers, can't wash as well as old ones
Also the reason im getting my kitchenaid laundry set and going to order/buy a new GE top freezer soon as a second fridge... So then im fully covered
As time goes on, the less and less i like new appliances.. I really am sad samsung put that dumb door in the washer... it takes away from the astetics, reliablity and you can't watch it
I can remember when newly weds bought their major appliances,range,fridge,washer,and dryer when they were married.Then when their kids went off to college-their machines still were working and in use!Same with most of their small machines,too.
brucelucenta
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2013
- Messages
- 1,924
Unless they bought Norge! LOL Consumer reports did more for Norge back in the 50's than any amount of advertising could have done! My parents w&d lasted about 6-7 years. The washer pump went out, yet again and my father bought a GE to replace it. The gas dryer caught on fire because of all the lint build up and he replaced the dryer too.
My favorite bit comes right at the beginning of the Maytag video above: He talks about how the maximum spin speed has been reduced quite a bit (to 850 rpm) because the manufacturer found that faster speeds were reducing the lifespan of clothing. I'd be willing to bet the farm the maximum spin speed was reduced because the machine couldn't take it. Wonder if a Maytag customer rep fed him that line?
THEY USED TO LAST 50 YEARS: Once again, I call bullshit on this ridiculous fantasy. Our 1960 Kenmore washer saw the repairman many times and the only reason it was still in use in 1984 was that my stepfather found a barely used mid-60's KM and transplanted everything under the hood to our '60. He liked the one-button cycle set-up of our Model 80, which is why he didn't just scrap it and use the newer machine.
The reason all the wonderful vintage appliances we see at AW are still alive is because they've been restored. Their natural lifespans were over decades ago.
The issue is that today's machines are not designed to be repaired easily or relatively inexpensively. One can argue the exception is SQ (especially with their front-loader), but sales of their residential line make up a tiny fraction of their corporate profit. If SQ sold only a residential line, they'd go out of business making washers that, with repairs, could last 25-50 years. Companies stay competitive on Wall Street not by repairing appliances already in the field, but by selling new ones.
THEY USED TO LAST 50 YEARS: Once again, I call bullshit on this ridiculous fantasy. Our 1960 Kenmore washer saw the repairman many times and the only reason it was still in use in 1984 was that my stepfather found a barely used mid-60's KM and transplanted everything under the hood to our '60. He liked the one-button cycle set-up of our Model 80, which is why he didn't just scrap it and use the newer machine.
The reason all the wonderful vintage appliances we see at AW are still alive is because they've been restored. Their natural lifespans were over decades ago.
The issue is that today's machines are not designed to be repaired easily or relatively inexpensively. One can argue the exception is SQ (especially with their front-loader), but sales of their residential line make up a tiny fraction of their corporate profit. If SQ sold only a residential line, they'd go out of business making washers that, with repairs, could last 25-50 years. Companies stay competitive on Wall Street not by repairing appliances already in the field, but by selling new ones.
vacerator
Well-known member
Buick built
quality up through the 90's in Flint. All gone now. One even comes from Poland now.
My folks had a 1977 Electra Limited sedan. No problems or issues until it was very old. There is an '89 LeSabre still running around here, and several later 2000's ones.
As for the new Whirltag 850 r.p.m. spin speed DD VMV machines, my 5 year old belt driven one spun at 850 maximum when new, and I was getting holes in my shirts.
This Bravos X top line model was advertised as "high end laundry" at a budget price. Not counting the garments it ruined.
quality up through the 90's in Flint. All gone now. One even comes from Poland now.
My folks had a 1977 Electra Limited sedan. No problems or issues until it was very old. There is an '89 LeSabre still running around here, and several later 2000's ones.
As for the new Whirltag 850 r.p.m. spin speed DD VMV machines, my 5 year old belt driven one spun at 850 maximum when new, and I was getting holes in my shirts.
This Bravos X top line model was advertised as "high end laundry" at a budget price. Not counting the garments it ruined.
High speed spin and textile damage
When first got the Laundry Alternative spin dryer would run every load that came out of the Miele in it for four or five minutes, maybe more for thick and thirsty towels. Soon began noticing holes in certain garments (mainly knits such as T-shirts, drawers, etc..) and towels/washcloths started fraying at the selvages. Looked it up to find yes, subjecting fabrics to high speeds often and for long periods isn't a good idea.
Now only do bath linens and even then for about three minutes only.
When first got the Laundry Alternative spin dryer would run every load that came out of the Miele in it for four or five minutes, maybe more for thick and thirsty towels. Soon began noticing holes in certain garments (mainly knits such as T-shirts, drawers, etc..) and towels/washcloths started fraying at the selvages. Looked it up to find yes, subjecting fabrics to high speeds often and for long periods isn't a good idea.
Now only do bath linens and even then for about three minutes only.
High speed spins damaging fabrics
We spin basicly everything at 1400rpm or 1600rpm in our washers for the past 15 years or so and recognized no difference at all, to be honest.
However, there was a time before the efficency and capacity race here in Germany where the spin speed race was a thing. 1600rpm was a thing since sometime in the 90s I think, but at some point, some manufacturer came up with a 1800rpm washer. I think AEG started that trend, but soon, basicly any name brand had at least one 1800rpm washer in their lineup. Miele (there were Novotronics and the 2 Navitronic versions), BSH (the Siemens IQ and Bosch counterpart), AEG (Lavamats and Lavalogics) and Gorenje. Gorenje even had a 2000rpm model. Oh, and Asko had 2000rpm models until not long ago.
But these died out sooner or later. However, hidden in a Miele service menu, before the W1 line, any washer with a FU-motor had an option to change the max spin speed anywhere from 400 to 2000rpm.
We spin basicly everything at 1400rpm or 1600rpm in our washers for the past 15 years or so and recognized no difference at all, to be honest.
However, there was a time before the efficency and capacity race here in Germany where the spin speed race was a thing. 1600rpm was a thing since sometime in the 90s I think, but at some point, some manufacturer came up with a 1800rpm washer. I think AEG started that trend, but soon, basicly any name brand had at least one 1800rpm washer in their lineup. Miele (there were Novotronics and the 2 Navitronic versions), BSH (the Siemens IQ and Bosch counterpart), AEG (Lavamats and Lavalogics) and Gorenje. Gorenje even had a 2000rpm model. Oh, and Asko had 2000rpm models until not long ago.
But these died out sooner or later. However, hidden in a Miele service menu, before the W1 line, any washer with a FU-motor had an option to change the max spin speed anywhere from 400 to 2000rpm.
vacerator
Well-known member
I know it sounds
ridiculous, but maybe Miele and european makers hone the drain holes smoother on the baskets after punching out? Sure, it costs more to do, so no surprise WP doesn't. Bean counters have the final say over engineering.
My shirts had holes from the pattern on the basket holes. Granted, they were only light cotton tee's, but that's what I wear in the hot summer.
ridiculous, but maybe Miele and european makers hone the drain holes smoother on the baskets after punching out? Sure, it costs more to do, so no surprise WP doesn't. Bean counters have the final say over engineering.
My shirts had holes from the pattern on the basket holes. Granted, they were only light cotton tee's, but that's what I wear in the hot summer.
Spin Speed & Damage
Much probably could be attributed to drum rhythms and quality of construction.
Loading washing into an extractor and leaving it for five, or more mins probably can cause damage say versus a washing machine with final spins of even 1400 or 1600 rpms.
Once the extractor reaches max speed it will remain there until turned off. Washing machines OTOH usually do a series of ramping up to speed, slowing down to redistribute, then ramping up again. This and or final high speed (1200 1400, 1600, 1800)only occurs for a small portion of the total spin cycle.
On my AEG the 1800 spin speed (if chosen) only is the final two minutes of total final spin cycle.
Much probably could be attributed to drum rhythms and quality of construction.
Loading washing into an extractor and leaving it for five, or more mins probably can cause damage say versus a washing machine with final spins of even 1400 or 1600 rpms.
Once the extractor reaches max speed it will remain there until turned off. Washing machines OTOH usually do a series of ramping up to speed, slowing down to redistribute, then ramping up again. This and or final high speed (1200 1400, 1600, 1800)only occurs for a small portion of the total spin cycle.
On my AEG the 1800 spin speed (if chosen) only is the final two minutes of total final spin cycle.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
I read the article again
just now - I noticed in the main article and the comments section, he recommends LG over any other brand for FL. I wonder where he gets this opinion? He seems to know a LOT and I agree with everything he says, but fifty years like frigilux says is a stretch. The longest appliance no repair stretch that I'm aware of personally is my grandma's 1984 Whirlpool dishwasher, which died in 2014, according to my dad. I asked him if he had ever repaired it and he said no. I do not know if my grandma ever had repairs on it, but knowing her, I doubt it.
My friend Elizabeth, who cooks A lot, told me that she has been through 4 ovens in 16 years. Her excuse was that she is hard on ovens and her constant cooking wears them out.
just now - I noticed in the main article and the comments section, he recommends LG over any other brand for FL. I wonder where he gets this opinion? He seems to know a LOT and I agree with everything he says, but fifty years like frigilux says is a stretch. The longest appliance no repair stretch that I'm aware of personally is my grandma's 1984 Whirlpool dishwasher, which died in 2014, according to my dad. I asked him if he had ever repaired it and he said no. I do not know if my grandma ever had repairs on it, but knowing her, I doubt it.
My friend Elizabeth, who cooks A lot, told me that she has been through 4 ovens in 16 years. Her excuse was that she is hard on ovens and her constant cooking wears them out.
washerdude
Well-known member
Our Appliance Life (Condensed version)
I've noticed with ALL of our original appliances which came with our house, which most of them were clocking in close 20 years, had issues coming up. Some repeatedly, others, randomly with one exception (the maytag jetclean which just would not go down). So I just can't see how appliances could run for 50 years straight without having a single repair on them when in our experience we had appliances starting to go bad close to the 20 year mark.
I've noticed with ALL of our original appliances which came with our house, which most of them were clocking in close 20 years, had issues coming up. Some repeatedly, others, randomly with one exception (the maytag jetclean which just would not go down). So I just can't see how appliances could run for 50 years straight without having a single repair on them when in our experience we had appliances starting to go bad close to the 20 year mark.
This topic always makes me laugh now.
Sure, statistically, older appliances used more durable materials; more metal. But that's what was cost effective at the time. And yes, prices were absolutely higher back then. They were luxury items. Now they're commodities, with commodity priced components. Many of which are Chinese or Mexican made now.
My parents paid over $2000 in 2016 money back in the day for their Maytag set. The dryer lasted 20 years. The washer is still going! But it's on borrowed time. I bought my modern Maytag front load set for about the same money (a bit less) and got all sorts of bells n whistles. Will it last 20-30 years. NO. I know that. But I'm confident I can repair them if I need to. Even if I need to buy a rear tub kit with a bearing.
Alas, I do not believe that type of longevity is typical. I think we're lucky. I don't know ANYONE anymore that has appliances that even go to the 90s.
Sure, use has a lot to do with it, but parts just simply break down.
And that '82 Maytag has not been without repairs. It's just "more repairable" than others. Especially today.
Being in engineering, we're squeezed on price much more than in the past because companies really did invest more in their products to compete. But at the same time, we still do try to engineer things to the best ability of the allowed price. Not to mention raw materials and manufacturing costs are way way up from what they used to be.
So there's a myriad of factors.
Yes, lots of more parts are plastic today. Paint is thinner, metal is thinner. More sub-assemblies are glued or sonic welded together, so replacement is harder. But it's all those sub-assemblies that allow faster, easier initial assembly and keep costs down. They keep these machines light for transportation costs too, which are also sky high. Especially when you ship stuff across the ocean (eyeroll). In addition though, you can do many more amazing things with plastic than with metal, and many plastics ARE stronger than some metals in certain applications.
In truth, the costs are moved to the consumer now, for repairs. Because now they have to buy a whole sub-assembly, because that one gasket or solenoid are simply NOT stocked anywhere. They're made to order and pre-assembled before they ever make it to the appliance company.
But.....BUT....if you are skilled (rare today I know), you can totally change out a tub bearing sub-assembly, or get replacement resistors/relays at Fry's and re-solder them to your control board.
It just all depends on how much down time you allot, or skill you have, or if you think it's even worth to repair.
There is also the strong factor of real market research that companies do. And consumers are NOT blameless here.
Whirlpool knows they must make x% profit on a certain machine to sell well in the market. They also know it costs x to make it last 3 years, or 20 years. And STILL make their margin. But the market price today keeps that cost/margin ratio far down. And the only way to raise it is comparatively with bells n whistles. The consumers just will not spend x money for washer or dryer. That eats away at the margin left for profit, design, shipping, components etc. The market squeezes you from all directions. Home Depot squeezes you. Wall Street squeezes you. Consumers squeeze you, as well as the shipping and labor. People just won't pay to cover those costs. So materials quality suffers to be the bare minimum to get it to sell.
The one aspect though, that I do find particularly egregious, is the influx of ONE YEAR warranties on appliances. That's really a slap in the face.
That totally reeks of "we slapped this turd together and we don't trust it either."
That or they warranty the stuff they know will never break.
My Maxima set has 10 warranties on the motors and drums. LOL!
Those NEVER break! The drum? Really? LOL.
But the bearing? LOL! Yeah on day 366, they won't touch it with a 39.5 foot pole.
There's a lot of economic factors that have gotten us where we are. But there's a lot of greed as well. It's the influx of "money people" running companies instead of manufacturing or engineering folks. Like in the past.
The only thing that will change this is if consumers get upset enough to start up many more class action lawsuits for shoddiness.
While at the same time we should be thankful for how functional our appliances still actually are. And the fact that many many of them are still at least designed and fully assembled here (even though the BOM parts are often sourced elsewhere).
That's my 5 cents. (2 cents in 1982).
Sure, statistically, older appliances used more durable materials; more metal. But that's what was cost effective at the time. And yes, prices were absolutely higher back then. They were luxury items. Now they're commodities, with commodity priced components. Many of which are Chinese or Mexican made now.
My parents paid over $2000 in 2016 money back in the day for their Maytag set. The dryer lasted 20 years. The washer is still going! But it's on borrowed time. I bought my modern Maytag front load set for about the same money (a bit less) and got all sorts of bells n whistles. Will it last 20-30 years. NO. I know that. But I'm confident I can repair them if I need to. Even if I need to buy a rear tub kit with a bearing.
Alas, I do not believe that type of longevity is typical. I think we're lucky. I don't know ANYONE anymore that has appliances that even go to the 90s.
Sure, use has a lot to do with it, but parts just simply break down.
And that '82 Maytag has not been without repairs. It's just "more repairable" than others. Especially today.
Being in engineering, we're squeezed on price much more than in the past because companies really did invest more in their products to compete. But at the same time, we still do try to engineer things to the best ability of the allowed price. Not to mention raw materials and manufacturing costs are way way up from what they used to be.
So there's a myriad of factors.
Yes, lots of more parts are plastic today. Paint is thinner, metal is thinner. More sub-assemblies are glued or sonic welded together, so replacement is harder. But it's all those sub-assemblies that allow faster, easier initial assembly and keep costs down. They keep these machines light for transportation costs too, which are also sky high. Especially when you ship stuff across the ocean (eyeroll). In addition though, you can do many more amazing things with plastic than with metal, and many plastics ARE stronger than some metals in certain applications.
In truth, the costs are moved to the consumer now, for repairs. Because now they have to buy a whole sub-assembly, because that one gasket or solenoid are simply NOT stocked anywhere. They're made to order and pre-assembled before they ever make it to the appliance company.
But.....BUT....if you are skilled (rare today I know), you can totally change out a tub bearing sub-assembly, or get replacement resistors/relays at Fry's and re-solder them to your control board.
It just all depends on how much down time you allot, or skill you have, or if you think it's even worth to repair.
There is also the strong factor of real market research that companies do. And consumers are NOT blameless here.
Whirlpool knows they must make x% profit on a certain machine to sell well in the market. They also know it costs x to make it last 3 years, or 20 years. And STILL make their margin. But the market price today keeps that cost/margin ratio far down. And the only way to raise it is comparatively with bells n whistles. The consumers just will not spend x money for washer or dryer. That eats away at the margin left for profit, design, shipping, components etc. The market squeezes you from all directions. Home Depot squeezes you. Wall Street squeezes you. Consumers squeeze you, as well as the shipping and labor. People just won't pay to cover those costs. So materials quality suffers to be the bare minimum to get it to sell.
The one aspect though, that I do find particularly egregious, is the influx of ONE YEAR warranties on appliances. That's really a slap in the face.
That totally reeks of "we slapped this turd together and we don't trust it either."
That or they warranty the stuff they know will never break.
My Maxima set has 10 warranties on the motors and drums. LOL!
Those NEVER break! The drum? Really? LOL.
But the bearing? LOL! Yeah on day 366, they won't touch it with a 39.5 foot pole.
There's a lot of economic factors that have gotten us where we are. But there's a lot of greed as well. It's the influx of "money people" running companies instead of manufacturing or engineering folks. Like in the past.
The only thing that will change this is if consumers get upset enough to start up many more class action lawsuits for shoddiness.
While at the same time we should be thankful for how functional our appliances still actually are. And the fact that many many of them are still at least designed and fully assembled here (even though the BOM parts are often sourced elsewhere).
That's my 5 cents. (2 cents in 1982).
