Here is the official answer from Bosch!
To pre-rinse dishes or not to pre-rinse...
- Thread starter joefuss1984
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No leather pants?! Oh nein!
Well, at least he’s got that 'German dude trying to speak English' accent down. Not sure if I find this funny or embarrassing. Cultural stereotypes aside, Hans, no, Manfred is right, of course. I just bought a Bosch dishwasher that draws just .6 gal per fill yet, residual water in cups is always clear. With out pre-rinsing.
Isch liebe meine Bosch dischwascher.
Well, at least he’s got that 'German dude trying to speak English' accent down. Not sure if I find this funny or embarrassing. Cultural stereotypes aside, Hans, no, Manfred is right, of course. I just bought a Bosch dishwasher that draws just .6 gal per fill yet, residual water in cups is always clear. With out pre-rinsing.
Isch liebe meine Bosch dischwascher.
There's a few things I'd LIKE
to Ask Manfred, but unfortunately, not many of them are about appliances.
Woooooooooof! Just what I LIKE!! Pity Bosch doesn't offer a portable dishwasher (at least as of the last time I looked....)
Lawrence/Maytagbear
to Ask Manfred, but unfortunately, not many of them are about appliances.
Woooooooooof! Just what I LIKE!! Pity Bosch doesn't offer a portable dishwasher (at least as of the last time I looked....)
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Manfred must be a bit confused...
"If the enzymes in the detergent don't have food particles to feed on, they will eat away at your dishes and make them dull and ugly."
Enzymes digesting dishes? What sort of enzymes does Manfred have in his detergent? Maybe he smoked those enzymes...
"If the enzymes in the detergent don't have food particles to feed on, they will eat away at your dishes and make them dull and ugly."
Enzymes digesting dishes? What sort of enzymes does Manfred have in his detergent? Maybe he smoked those enzymes...
I don't buy the "enzymes will eat away at your dishes" explanation, either. The longest wash is the second, main wash which has detergent in it. Most of the surface soils have been flushed away by the pre-rinse or pre-wash.
jerrod6
Well-known member
The enzymes combined with hot water may damage your glasses. On my DW the prewash lasts between 8(for small loads) to 13(for normal or large loads) minutes and while it knocks the big stuff off, the small stuck on fine stuff will still be on the dishes.
In general when I use a cycle that is going to heat the water to 170F combined with detgerent, I will wash the glasses separately in the quick cycle which uses a way lower temperature for the wash.
In general when I use a cycle that is going to heat the water to 170F combined with detgerent, I will wash the glasses separately in the quick cycle which uses a way lower temperature for the wash.
Enzymes and glass
jerrod6: "The enzymes combined with hot water may damage your glasses".
I am not sure at all that enzymes can damage glass.
If I remember correctly, what damages glass in a dishwasher is the so-called "glass corrosion" caused by too soft hot water in the last rinse (which is sometimes even hotter than the main wash)
jerrod6: "The enzymes combined with hot water may damage your glasses".
I am not sure at all that enzymes can damage glass.
If I remember correctly, what damages glass in a dishwasher is the so-called "glass corrosion" caused by too soft hot water in the last rinse (which is sometimes even hotter than the main wash)
Am I the only one
Who thinks Manfred is ein heiss papa?
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Who thinks Manfred is ein heiss papa?
Lawrence/Maytagbear
jerrod6
Well-known member
I dunno I thought it was hot water combined with detergent that caused glass etching. Reason I am thinking this is that in my Miele Dw with water softener it will mix hard water with soft water during the wash phase in programs where the wash temp could go over 131F. Of course it might also do that in the rinses too.
So in the automatic cycle(Sensor), pots and pans, cheese, starch, china crystal.... all of these get mixed water, and all of these except china crystal(113F) can be over 131, but energy save(or economy) around 121F and normal about 118F, get no mix of water.
When I use pots and pans, cheese, or starch I usually omit any type of glasses because these programs have a set temp of 170F during the wash.
One other thing I noticed is that I don't remember having glass etching problems until enzymes where introduced into DW detergents. My parents had a 1971 KA Superba and it was using hot water heated by our heating system which kept the water at 180F in order to heat the house. Never an etched glass.......UNTIL detergents with enzymes where introduced.
So in the automatic cycle(Sensor), pots and pans, cheese, starch, china crystal.... all of these get mixed water, and all of these except china crystal(113F) can be over 131, but energy save(or economy) around 121F and normal about 118F, get no mix of water.
When I use pots and pans, cheese, or starch I usually omit any type of glasses because these programs have a set temp of 170F during the wash.
One other thing I noticed is that I don't remember having glass etching problems until enzymes where introduced into DW detergents. My parents had a 1971 KA Superba and it was using hot water heated by our heating system which kept the water at 180F in order to heat the house. Never an etched glass.......UNTIL detergents with enzymes where introduced.
When washing glasses in the dishwasher, it is important to select a fast and cool cycle. Too much detergent, long exposure to water and chemicals, too soft water (I think 4 gpg is best says Miele), drastic changes in temp... Many things can cause etching. That being said, I have washed expensive glasses on the 175F cycle without a problem, while cheap ones etch...
Alex
Alex
From the Patents I have read which is a lot I know that food activates enzyme detergents at certain temps and it does say that it can damage things if there is nothing in there for the enzyme to attack..I don't even scrape let alone rinse I shake it the sink if that and in
it goes.... I have no problems my L.G. cleans great
it goes.... I have no problems my L.G. cleans great
How Long Have I Said That? *LOL*
If DW detergents do not find something to attack in dishwater/on dishes they will go to work on some of the machine's interior parts. The caustic chemicals and or enzymes *need* foods, oils, fats, grease, etc to keep themselves busy and in some cases alter themselves into less dangerous compounds.
Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is a large part of most powdered DW detergents. When it comes into contact with fats/oils it makes a type of soap. Without those oils you've got all that washing soda flinging around with nothing to keep it in check. So it will find something such as dish, glass surfaces or whatever.
There is no sane reason to pre-rinse dishes going into an automatic dishwasher today. *Maybe* pre-soak or scrub very badly burnt up pots and pans if one isn't going run that cycle, but otherwise scrape, load and let the machine get on.
If DW detergents do not find something to attack in dishwater/on dishes they will go to work on some of the machine's interior parts. The caustic chemicals and or enzymes *need* foods, oils, fats, grease, etc to keep themselves busy and in some cases alter themselves into less dangerous compounds.
Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is a large part of most powdered DW detergents. When it comes into contact with fats/oils it makes a type of soap. Without those oils you've got all that washing soda flinging around with nothing to keep it in check. So it will find something such as dish, glass surfaces or whatever.
There is no sane reason to pre-rinse dishes going into an automatic dishwasher today. *Maybe* pre-soak or scrub very badly burnt up pots and pans if one isn't going run that cycle, but otherwise scrape, load and let the machine get on.
Too Right Launderess!
Pre-Rinsing Causes Glasses/Dishes to Etch:
Fair Dinkum! OR:
No Shit Sherlock (Sorry for the use of a profanity!)
Launderess, you have advocated the whole no-prerinsing to avoid etching thing for at least as long as I've been a member. Who here really does pre-rinse without knowing the effects?
Pre-Rinsing Causes Glasses/Dishes to Etch:
Fair Dinkum! OR:
No Shit Sherlock (Sorry for the use of a profanity!)
Launderess, you have advocated the whole no-prerinsing to avoid etching thing for at least as long as I've been a member. Who here really does pre-rinse without knowing the effects?
It depends on how good your dishwasher's filter design is!
In the United States, the traditional approach to dealing with scraps of food in dishwasher was to include a grinder. This resulted in a reasonable outcome, but it could also result in ground food being deposited back on your dishes and also food particles pounding the dishes which can cause glass damage as it's almost like sandblasting, especially if something like ground popcorn kernels or seeds get into the water.
The European approach (at least on well-designed machines) is different. You have a coarse filter and a self-cleaning cone filter.
The usual design (like Bosch/Siemens/Electrolux/AEG etc) has a tube-shaped multi-layer filter with a coarse grill at the top.
Large items of food will sit on the top of the filter and shouldn't block it.
Smaller items (like say for example a pea, a bit of salad, or piece of pasta) will get sucked down into the tubular filter. This is usually two layered with a very fine filter at the outer edge.
The wash pump sucks water horizontally from the sides of the filter forcing the water through all the layers. So, water recirculating in the dishwasher is kept relatively free of particles of food.
The drain pump is connected to the bottom of the filter. When the machine empties, water is sucked downwards, and fine particles are washed out of the filter meshes and sucked down the drain.
The drain pump can comfortably pump away anything that is small enough to pass through the coarse filters.
Typically, all you should need to do is remove any items sitting on top of the filter at the bottom of the machine and clean the filter out once in a while (not every wash!!)
Overall, unless you're just putting in dishes with a whole meal still on them, you shouldn't have that much filter-maintenance to worry about.
In the United States, the traditional approach to dealing with scraps of food in dishwasher was to include a grinder. This resulted in a reasonable outcome, but it could also result in ground food being deposited back on your dishes and also food particles pounding the dishes which can cause glass damage as it's almost like sandblasting, especially if something like ground popcorn kernels or seeds get into the water.
The European approach (at least on well-designed machines) is different. You have a coarse filter and a self-cleaning cone filter.
The usual design (like Bosch/Siemens/Electrolux/AEG etc) has a tube-shaped multi-layer filter with a coarse grill at the top.
Large items of food will sit on the top of the filter and shouldn't block it.
Smaller items (like say for example a pea, a bit of salad, or piece of pasta) will get sucked down into the tubular filter. This is usually two layered with a very fine filter at the outer edge.
The wash pump sucks water horizontally from the sides of the filter forcing the water through all the layers. So, water recirculating in the dishwasher is kept relatively free of particles of food.
The drain pump is connected to the bottom of the filter. When the machine empties, water is sucked downwards, and fine particles are washed out of the filter meshes and sucked down the drain.
The drain pump can comfortably pump away anything that is small enough to pass through the coarse filters.
Typically, all you should need to do is remove any items sitting on top of the filter at the bottom of the machine and clean the filter out once in a while (not every wash!!)
Overall, unless you're just putting in dishes with a whole meal still on them, you shouldn't have that much filter-maintenance to worry about.
Living on my own I have to pre rinse sometimes, because I don`t want to have smelly dishes sitting for 2-3 days in the DW !
No more problems with etching in years. I use a little less salt than needed for my water conditions and all in one tabs of good quality.
I remember back in the 1990s when chlorinated detergents were still on the maket here, I had much more problems with etched glasses and even the enameled pots had a nasty rough surface.
Didn`t chlorinated detergents contain the even more caustic water glass instead of washing soda?
I`m surprised Manfred blames the enzymes I always thought it`s the caustics ?!?
No more problems with etching in years. I use a little less salt than needed for my water conditions and all in one tabs of good quality.
I remember back in the 1990s when chlorinated detergents were still on the maket here, I had much more problems with etched glasses and even the enameled pots had a nasty rough surface.
Didn`t chlorinated detergents contain the even more caustic water glass instead of washing soda?
I`m surprised Manfred blames the enzymes I always thought it`s the caustics ?!?
jerrod6
Well-known member
Problem might be today's world economy and the proliferation of cheaply constructed glass. I had glasses from the Crate and Barrel store that etched like crazy within 6 months. Thing is that they were washed in the same cycles along with other glasses that I have had for 15 years..... and no etching on them, and they are still being used with no etching.
Now I just take precaution and don't include glasses in any cycle that it going to get to 170F degrees in the wash.
The one glass I do rinse off and scrape with my fingers under running water is the one that has been used to consume fiber supplements because the fiber gets into the machine, mixes with hot water and then turns into a thick slime that covers the filter and the drain pump is not strong enough to deal with it. Wash pump can handle it, drain pump no.
Now I just take precaution and don't include glasses in any cycle that it going to get to 170F degrees in the wash.
The one glass I do rinse off and scrape with my fingers under running water is the one that has been used to consume fiber supplements because the fiber gets into the machine, mixes with hot water and then turns into a thick slime that covers the filter and the drain pump is not strong enough to deal with it. Wash pump can handle it, drain pump no.
