Trump administration sued over dishwasher efficiency

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People just want to attack Trump as if he is the worst thing in the world, not realizing that would be WONDERFUL for everybody.

Now I'm going to sit and watch hundreds of AWO members that hate the absurd HE standards suddenly start loving them just because they can't agree Trump tried to do something great.

His attitude could also affect washers and allow "decent" top load washers to come back.
 
"I will be surprised if dishwashers are allowed to become less efficient."

Agreed, I don't see it happening. Even if it passed, all efficient dishwashers wouldn't magically disappear and become unavailable for purchase. There will always be a market for them.
 
It’s a real grey area posting political things in the Imperial, Deluxe, Super, and Shoppers Square forum indexes..
 
Well, it's appliance

crucial though! Maybe the efficiency experts will be pardoned before Jan. 20! Haha!
Joke, because we need to, not that we havn't witnessed one forst hand since 2017.
All the hype over bringing manufacturing back to the USA, etc. and America first is B.S. It's too late. Nixon opened China to diplomacy after they got nukes. Their program began in 1964, and the first bomb test was in the 70's.
Further more, our corporations no longer wanted to pay high wages and benefits in manufacturing. They used our congress, and China, Mexico, etc. to break unions. The labor force union membership is less than half as in 1977.
Karma is a bitch aint it?
 
If I EVER were to post anything political in the Imperial, Deluxe, Super, and Shoppers Square forum indexes I would be in hot water.
 
"A big difference"?

we do have more important things to be concerned with, and 10% hotter water won't kill one of them. Utility providers are hiking rates too, unless the ecomomy resets
to lower prices because of the pandemic. We'll have to see how actuaries come up with the numbers. I wouldn't hold my breath, but you can't collect blood from stones. I guess homeless people don't need utilities.
 
I don't consider this full blown politics, appliances are involved! Not interested in sharing my political views here, but if machines could use 25% more energy/water on a designated cycle, we would have some awesome cleaning machines- keep the energy efficient "normal" cycle for the people that just jam the normal button and walk away, but add a designated "Power clean" cycle that would do an admirable job in an hour or so..
 
Isn't this why .....

we love and gravitate towards older DW's .... say for instance the KA-18 thru 20 something that people here are always talking about?

More water, more power??

Cleaner dishes in way less time???

A huge bob load and still does a great job????

Just sayin ...
 
just my 2 cents here

just adding my 2 cents here most newer dishwasher today requires running hot water from the tap first before running the dishwasher but with the kitchenaid kdefe204kps because of the high temp wash option or sensor wash(prowash) i do not have to do that since i also use sani rinse but what would you do if during 2021 you find in mint condition vintage dishwashers like these? credit to members whopic i saved and using

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The only reference my user manual has to water supply temperature is on the cycle description page with an advisory that cycle time can vary per various factors such as incoming water temperature, ambient conditions, type of load, and whether the machine is opened during the cycle.  Wash times are only APPROXIMATE on the Electronic Display and based on 120°F incoming water.

The installation instructions say that maximum supply temperature is (should not exceed) 140°F.
 
Hmmm.

I have a Frigidaire model that is between 5 and 10 years old that replaced an old Maytag from the 90s with the mechanical dial—I wished I know then what I know now.

For the longest time, I couldn’t figure out why this appliance was not working well. My mother has an older Frigidaire that works well, and she never “washed” the dishes before they went in. Something called energy guidelines happened in that span of years.

Part of the reason seems to be that phosphates were removed from dishwashing detergent as Cascade Boil Out definitely has made a difference! I still use a lot of water rinsing the dishes to get all the residue off before putting in the machine. I then choose the hottest water temp and drying cycles available. It does a respectable job now with this method.

These energy regulations have caused many of us to use more chemicals, more loads, more time, and more energy to do the same thing in less time with less resources. The landfills are filling up at alarming rates when you consider this new thinking that also involves a less expensive up front and buy more often affects printers, tires, car batteries, sealed electronics, appliances, and lots more.
 
It's all a joke.

IIRC government efficiency ratings are done on certain cycles whether it be washing machines, dishwashers, etc. The manufacturers tailor those cycles to the regulations so they can claim the efficiency rating, and the other cycles aren't bothered by it by and large from what I remember. 

 

Interesting that Miele d/ws are recommended to be connected to the cold water tap, not that I would ever do that! We have a TOL G6987 that was used in the live kitchen in the now-defunct Miele showroom in the downstairs (daily driver) kitchen. I use the Quick Intensive program with the option of extra dry almost exclusively. It's maybe an hour-and-a-quarter instead of almost 2-and-a-half for the normal cycle. 

 

Games.

 

Chuck
 
Amount of money saved by average household over lifespan of newest and most energy efficient dishwashers isn't great. Much will depend upon local utility and water rates average consumer pays, but still it isn't as if machines come anywhere near repaying even 1/3 of cost.

Larger issue isn't consumers but society. Dishwashers like washing machines have gone from a luxury to pretty much standard mod con in most households. Thus energy used effects not just individual households, but governments overall as new power plants or other sources of energy must be created to run these appliances and of course heat water used. Factor into this the push to reduce carbon emissions and you can see where things are going.

https://appliance-standards.org/product/dishwashers
https://www.architectmagazine.com/t...ncy-water-conservation-and-premium-cleaning_o
 
What do you think

Hi Jerrod,

 

There are a LOT of bells and whistles on that machine that most people, myself included, would never use. Had it not been for getting it for $300 because it was "used," I wouldn't own it. It's not worth +/- $2600 to me. It killed me to get rid of the Miele G863 that I had fixed (a customer bought a new one so I hauled that one away- to our house instead of the scrapper) but the racks were showing too much wear and I didn't feel like shelling out the big $$ for new ones. I do like the flexibility of the racking system, but most Miele d/ws have some amount of that.

 

Pots and pans should be used only for pots and pans, or heavily soiled bakeware, etc. It adds a bit more force to the lower spray arm to help blast bits away. I've never needed to use it. Inversely, china and crystal should only be used with china and crystal as it dials the force down a bit as well as the temperature of the water.

 

Sensor vs. normal- in sensor, a turbidity sensor is used to determine if another wash or rinse is needed. However, normal also uses this so...

 

As I said before, I use the quick intense with 95% of our loads, though I found it didn't dry as well, hence adding the more dry option. In fact, I made a standing rib roast last night and the roasting/broiling pans are in there on that cycle as we speak. Of course I usually let things like that soak overnight, or at least for an hour or so with a dab of dishwasher powder and hot water, but... 

 

Feel free to contact me if you have other questions! Overall it's a great machine, even if it IS a bit full of itself! LOL!

 

Chuck
 
Efficent appliances

Buying new machines for efficency and saving money if the old one runs isn't really a thing unless the old one is 30+ years old.

Biggest differences are for refrigaration (a 30 year old can cut usage in half) or for switches from TL to FL.

Over here a heatpumpe dryer makes sense a good 75% of time by now.

But dishwashers really don't make sense to replace for efficency.

Now, though, I think makeing new machines as efficent as possible should just be a smart and logical thing to understand.

If I have to replace anyway, make it efficent.

As long as it works.

I have one of the most efficent DW in my kitchen, a Miele G7000 series model.

They have a model upper in that series that saves another couple of watts.

But I can run a weeks worth of dishes for 1 person in 1 load with 12l and 1kwh perfectly clean and dry every time.
On cold water.

"Last gen" that would have been 12-15l and 1.2-1.5kWh.
And last gen is 15y ago.

That is like at most a saving of 0.2€ per load.

Even at 5 loads a week that is 50€ a year. or 20y to recoupe buying a new DW just for efficency sake.

Now, replacing, the difference between a bottom of the line DW and a more efficent DW is an upgrade for same features of like 100-200€.

That recoupes in 2-4 years.
Much more reasonable.

Now if you factor that up to all sold DW in a year.

We sell about 2.2Mio in 2020 in germany as a projection.

Each DW runs lets say 200 cycles a year on average.
And each DW saves about 0.2kWh over the model it replaces per cycle.

That is 88Mio kWh.
Or 35200t of CO2.

Or about 27.5Mio km traveld by car saved.

Or about 14000 times the amount of CO2 I emmit by driving an entire year.

For you, yes, buying new for efficency dosen't make any sense.

Buying efficent when buying new makes sense for you and everybody else.

Now on dryers, well that is more complicated.

I do think for the US buying a gas vented dryer is still more economical for another decade or 2.

Over here we really don't have household gas dryers.

And seeing heatpump is only like 100€ more for HALF the usage, buying new for efficency can make sense quite fast.

The easiest calculation I use for that to explain this to people.

Here are some rough, easy to calculate numbers for a dryer.

According to labels, an 8kg dryer uses about 500kWh.
To make it easier to calculate and allow for some leaway, I assume an A++ heatpump 8kg model is rated at 250kWh (though 220kWh is actually what they use).

That is 250kWh saved a year.
That is 75€ a year.

Or

A HP dryer uses about 750W an hour.
That is 22 cents.

A condenser dryer uses about 1.5-2kWh in a hour.
Or about 44-60 cents.

So it saves 20 cents an hour at worst.
That is about 500h of operation.

Event the cheapest dryers last 2000h per design.

So get back to the headline:

Yes, I would agree to sue them.

Makeing DW use more just makes manufacturers bottom lines betters and yours worse.

They can sell cheaper machines for more money with less reasearch and you pay for it in electricity and water.
 
“Energy efficient” appliances to me translates to half-way cleaning performance (especially in washers and dishwashers) and customer dissatisfaction. They may save energy, but one thing they don’t save is TIME.
 
And last gen is 15y ago.

Henrik,

 

The "Gen 6" dishwashers (previous generation to the new G7xxx) came out in about 2013, didn't they? At least over here. Before that, it was the 2000 series. The 4xxx were kind of a cross-over but considered the low-end Gen 6 models.

 

You are spot on with regard to efficiency. If your only goal is to have the most efficient machine today to save a few gallons and kWhs here and there, then by all means have at it. If money/savings is the consideration, don't bother unless your current machine is "that bad." But, with less water and money-saving pumps, you get longer run times as the trade-off.

 

Just like the low consumption toilets... they may use much less water per flush, but how many times do they require a 2nd flush?

 

Chuck
 

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