Trump administration sued over dishwasher efficiency

[perc-o-prince]

It's all a joke.

IIRC government efficiency ratings are done on certain cycles whether it be washing machines, dishwashers, etc. The manufacturers tailor those cycles to the regulations so they can claim the efficiency rating, and the other cycles aren't bothered by it by and large from what I remember. 

 

Interesting that Miele d/ws are recommended to be connected to the cold water tap, not that I would ever do that! We have a TOL G6987 that was used in the live kitchen in the now-defunct Miele showroom in the downstairs (daily driver) kitchen. I use the Quick Intensive program with the option of extra dry almost exclusively. It's maybe an hour-and-a-quarter instead of almost 2-and-a-half for the normal cycle. 

 

Games.

 

Chuck

 

[jerrod_six]

Perc-o-prince

This is the DW I have. What do you think of the Sensor Wash vs Normal or Pots and Pans?

 

[good-shepherd]

Here is a radical idea.

Manufacturers sell both types of DW's and let the market decide.

 

[launderess]

Amount of money saved by average household over lifespan of newest and most energy efficient dishwashers isn't great. Much will depend upon local utility and water rates average consumer pays, but still it isn't as if machines come anywhere near repaying even 1/3 of cost.

Larger issue isn't consumers but society. Dishwashers like washing machines have gone from a luxury to pretty much standard mod con in most households. Thus energy used effects not just individual households, but governments overall as new power plants or other sources of energy must be created to run these appliances and of course heat water used. Factor into this the push to reduce carbon emissions and you can see where things are going.

Dishwashers | ASAP Appliance Standard Awareness Project

THE PRODUCT:Most dishwashers are classified as “standard” size, which means that they can hold at least eight place settings. “Compact” dishwashers have capacities of less than eight place settings.

appliance-standards.org

https://www.architectmagazine.com/technology/products/dishwashers-combine-energy-efficiency-water-conservation-and-premium-cleaning_o

 

[launderess]

For those that like a good read....

https://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/pdf/FSEC-CR-1772-08.pdf

 

[perc-o-prince]

What do you think

Hi Jerrod,

 

There are a LOT of bells and whistles on that machine that most people, myself included, would never use. Had it not been for getting it for $300 because it was "used," I wouldn't own it. It's not worth +/- $2600 to me. It killed me to get rid of the Miele G863 that I had fixed (a customer bought a new one so I hauled that one away- to our house instead of the scrapper) but the racks were showing too much wear and I didn't feel like shelling out the big $$ for new ones. I do like the flexibility of the racking system, but most Miele d/ws have some amount of that.

 

Pots and pans should be used only for pots and pans, or heavily soiled bakeware, etc. It adds a bit more force to the lower spray arm to help blast bits away. I've never needed to use it. Inversely, china and crystal should only be used with china and crystal as it dials the force down a bit as well as the temperature of the water.

 

Sensor vs. normal- in sensor, a turbidity sensor is used to determine if another wash or rinse is needed. However, normal also uses this so...

 

As I said before, I use the quick intense with 95% of our loads, though I found it didn't dry as well, hence adding the more dry option. In fact, I made a standing rib roast last night and the roasting/broiling pans are in there on that cycle as we speak. Of course I usually let things like that soak overnight, or at least for an hour or so with a dab of dishwasher powder and hot water, but... 

 

Feel free to contact me if you have other questions! Overall it's a great machine, even if it IS a bit full of itself! LOL!

 

Chuck

 

[henene4]

Efficent appliances

Buying new machines for efficency and saving money if the old one runs isn't really a thing unless the old one is 30+ years old.

Biggest differences are for refrigaration (a 30 year old can cut usage in half) or for switches from TL to FL.

Over here a heatpumpe dryer makes sense a good 75% of time by now.

But dishwashers really don't make sense to replace for efficency.

Now, though, I think makeing new machines as efficent as possible should just be a smart and logical thing to understand.

If I have to replace anyway, make it efficent.

As long as it works.

I have one of the most efficent DW in my kitchen, a Miele G7000 series model.

They have a model upper in that series that saves another couple of watts.

But I can run a weeks worth of dishes for 1 person in 1 load with 12l and 1kwh perfectly clean and dry every time.
On cold water.

"Last gen" that would have been 12-15l and 1.2-1.5kWh.
And last gen is 15y ago.

That is like at most a saving of 0.2€ per load.

Even at 5 loads a week that is 50€ a year. or 20y to recoupe buying a new DW just for efficency sake.

Now, replacing, the difference between a bottom of the line DW and a more efficent DW is an upgrade for same features of like 100-200€.

That recoupes in 2-4 years.
Much more reasonable.

Now if you factor that up to all sold DW in a year.

We sell about 2.2Mio in 2020 in germany as a projection.

Each DW runs lets say 200 cycles a year on average.
And each DW saves about 0.2kWh over the model it replaces per cycle.

That is 88Mio kWh.
Or 35200t of CO2.

Or about 27.5Mio km traveld by car saved.

Or about 14000 times the amount of CO2 I emmit by driving an entire year.

For you, yes, buying new for efficency dosen't make any sense.

Buying efficent when buying new makes sense for you and everybody else.

Now on dryers, well that is more complicated.

I do think for the US buying a gas vented dryer is still more economical for another decade or 2.

Over here we really don't have household gas dryers.

And seeing heatpump is only like 100€ more for HALF the usage, buying new for efficency can make sense quite fast.

The easiest calculation I use for that to explain this to people.

Here are some rough, easy to calculate numbers for a dryer.

According to labels, an 8kg dryer uses about 500kWh.
To make it easier to calculate and allow for some leaway, I assume an A++ heatpump 8kg model is rated at 250kWh (though 220kWh is actually what they use).

That is 250kWh saved a year.
That is 75€ a year.

Or

A HP dryer uses about 750W an hour.
That is 22 cents.

A condenser dryer uses about 1.5-2kWh in a hour.
Or about 44-60 cents.

So it saves 20 cents an hour at worst.
That is about 500h of operation.

Event the cheapest dryers last 2000h per design.

So get back to the headline:

Yes, I would agree to sue them.

Makeing DW use more just makes manufacturers bottom lines betters and yours worse.

They can sell cheaper machines for more money with less reasearch and you pay for it in electricity and water.

 

[maytag85]

“Energy efficient” appliances to me translates to half-way cleaning performance (especially in washers and dishwashers) and customer dissatisfaction. They may save energy, but one thing they don’t save is TIME.

 

[perc-o-prince]

And last gen is 15y ago.

Henrik,

 

The "Gen 6" dishwashers (previous generation to the new G7xxx) came out in about 2013, didn't they? At least over here. Before that, it was the 2000 series. The 4xxx were kind of a cross-over but considered the low-end Gen 6 models.

 

You are spot on with regard to efficiency. If your only goal is to have the most efficient machine today to save a few gallons and kWhs here and there, then by all means have at it. If money/savings is the consideration, don't bother unless your current machine is "that bad." But, with less water and money-saving pumps, you get longer run times as the trade-off.

 

Just like the low consumption toilets... they may use much less water per flush, but how many times do they require a 2nd flush?

 

Chuck

 

[jerrod_six]

Questions

Thanks, Chuck. I do have some things I want to compare, so I'll send an E-mail.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

I hope they do the same thing

with washers and dryers.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

It would be cool

if GE brought back the filter-flos.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

One thing to remember is that simply being here means we're not the average consumers. When someone talks about "carbon footprint" or "saving energy" we all see things like replacement cost of new unit, disposal of old, resources saved (or not), etc. Most people just see the yellow sticker and catch phrases like "23% more efficient" and think that's the whole story.

Reality is rather more complicated and most people just don't want to hear that. Like if their new dishwasher saves 2 gallons of water but now to get clean dishes they have to purge a gallon of cold water from the hot water line first... Well, good luck getting them to understand they are saving 1 gallon and not 2.

 

[henene4]

@perc-o-prince

While the G7000 is a considerable redesign, it really isn't that much more efficient.
You can get the same efficiency when using the extra economy option on a G6000 basically.

The G4000 wasn't that inefficient either.

The G2000/G1000 series however did use some more, around what I stated.

On the Bosch/BSH Side the "current" wash platform (EcoSilenceDrive, Zeolith) came out in 2007 or so I think.

Has been reworked some since, but efficiency wise not much changed.

Pump, sump, filter and cycles stayed the same pretty much and they were significantly more efficient compared to the previous range, especially in terms of sensor cycles.

 

[pierreandreply4]

2021 how would you see a washer dryer like this?

in 2021 but more modern but with the vintage look and charm and easiness with true wash rinse temp no atc or automatic sensor where you set the wash time mechanical timers manuel water level ect ge filter flo kenmore with all vintage agitator including rotoswirl classic whirlpool inglis with classic surgilator ect pic is a canadien vintage eaton viking but they are made by ge

 

[perc-o-prince]

@Henrik

Amen! How do you like the G7? I saw a sample of it maybe 1.5 years ago before it was launched in the US. I (and others) thought the plastic racks abominable and a real step down in perceived quality for the brand. I believe the one we were viewing was a production model but can't be sure.

 

Yeah, the 2000s definitely used more water, and the waterproof systems on them seemed to have an issue in that they failed more often than the others. Now take a look at the 800s! Definitely more water use and awesome drying thanks to the glowing element in the bottom of the tub, but cleaning like no other! The one we had here came out of a customer's house because it needed a circ pump repair which would have run the customer >$800 at the time. I got the pump for $125 my cost and installed it. We ran that unit for 4 years without issue and had it not been for the racks giving up, I'd have fought to keep it. The local showroom closed just in time so I was able to get that Diamond cheaply!

 

Chuck

 

[mark_wpduet]

I agree. Make them only energy efficient on the "NORMAL" cycles, which most people would use anyway. But people who sometimes need the washers/dishwashers to use lots of water or higher temps, it's there to use if needed. Or, make them less energy efficient, build them to last longer so it will save resources which will cancel out the xtra energy it uses. Probably won't happen. The companies have been cheapening things every year and will probably continue to..Besides, people seem to want to upgrade every few years anyway.

Not me. I used to love the thought of getting a new washer/dryer. Not anymore. I want what I have to last and so far, my Duet will be SIXTEEN years old this April

 

[maytaga806]

All they need to do is force Whirlpool to go back to the power clean style dishwasher, the most powerful dishwasher that was ever sold on the market and is most importantly RELIABLE. These new dishwashers aren’t very powerful anymore.

 

[maytaga806]

As much as I stand with him, I think he should be more concerned about HE washers and how much time energy and water they waste. That’s a bigger concern than dishwashers as far as I’m concerned. Dishwashers haven’t been corrupted the same way washers were when the HE came around many many years ago....

 

[warmsecondrinse]

#35

"Or, make them less energy efficient, build them to last longer so it will save resources which will cancel out the xtra energy it uses."

Exactly. The sticking point is that while WE understand this concept as will most geeks/enthusiasts of home-related technology, most people do not. They've been led to believe that the carbon footprint/resource equation of an appliance (or whatever) consists only of the item itself, as if it were in a vacuum.

A member brought up a simple example in another thread. His neighbor spent beaucoup $$$ to replace his inefficient windows with super efficient ones. While this undoubtedly did reduce his heating bill, it likely would have been more effective to spend half that amount to insulate the house better.

#37

Good point. In my limited experience the 'corruption' of modern dishwashers can usually be worked around by using longer cycles with water heating turned on. Doing the same in an HE TL (especially the older ones) doesn't yield nearly as much performance improvement.