Unnatural Causes sediment on PBS

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spiceman1957

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Did anyone viewed this short piece on PBS last night? Apparently, Electrolux (based in Sweden, which I didn't know) up lifted and moved their plant from Greenville, Michigan to Juarez Mexico leaving about 3,000 people out of a job. Many of these people now have little or no health insurance and are living on short term unemployment. Then what? I know the same thing happen in Newton, Iowa recently where Magtag had been a staple in that city for many, many years. The excuse Electrolux has is that its costs too much to make applainces in the US where in Mexico it can be done for about several dollars per hour, bus fare and lunch for their employees. You can be sure the CEO salaries haven't change, or even gotten bigger. Now, I'm not so sure I want an Electrolux appliance in my home, no matter how advanced the appliance is. Why would I, or anyone for that matter support a company that treats their employees no badly; and lets not forget about the ? quality of the appliances. I hope everyone can see this sediment which can be pulled up on PBS.org/unnaturalcauses/_04.htm . I think this is crappy and make me sad/angry.
 
Don't worry?

For most people here in the States, employer sponsored health care is the ONLY health coverage they have; if they have that.

Many minimum wage jobs do not have employer sponsored health care at all. In many cases, small business simply cannot afford to give employees health coverage, even though the business owner might want to, desperately.

3000 people without health care IS something to worry about.

Yes, there is COBRA, but it is horrifically expensive, and does not last forever. Some of these people may be over 50, but under 65, and may have trouble finding any job, let alone one with health coverage.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Yep!

"3000 people without health care IS something to worry about."

You're right about that. What many people don't understand is that if communities don't pay for health care through insurance, they will pay for it through taxes. The uninsured are often forced to use public hospitals for their health care.

Many businesses take shameless advantage of this hidden subsidy, refusing to offer insurance and letting every taxpayer pick up the tab for public hospital care.

I have even heard business owners say that they don't feel any responsibility to offer health insurance. To which I say: The workplace occupies at least one-third of an employee's time. The employee is exposed to occupational stress, and hazards like dangerous equipment and chemicals (even copier toner isn't exactly good for you). Self-care like a proper lunch break is often impossible. Those factors, and many more, affect the health of the worker. Any employer whose moral compass is in working order should feel a responsibility to share in the cost of the worker's health care.

I don't say they should pay it all; there are many factors outside the workplace that affect health, too. But bearing a fair share of the burden that health problems put on individuals and the community at large would be more than a lot of businesses are doing nowadays. I get particularly vexed at some small business owners, who have BMW's and McMansions and a boat and a place at the lake, then scream that offering insurance would ruin them. Not all small business owners are like this- many are struggling themselves- but I've seen some real offenders in my time.
 
Even

government retirement/healthcare is going away. My partner is in the "old" state retirement system. When he retires (in 7 years) he gets 90% of his salary and some healthcare benefits. If he takes early retirement it gets cut for every year less than the full 34 years. If he left now he would get about 60%.

I am in the "new" system, if I put 34 years in (I have 9) I get 60% of my pay (which ain't that much)and healthcare through Kaiser HMO or United Healthcare. The "NewNew" system for employee's hired after 2001 is basically a 401K. Healthcare is not being discussed.

If I stick it out here I doiubt there will be any healthcare or retirement left when I reach retirement age in 21 years.

And republicans wonder why people are turning against them? I guess we might as well go back to 1899.

I want just one republican here to tell me this country is better off than it was before the bush machine took office.

And don't give me that bullsh** line about "fighting terrorism".

The republican party has proven to be the real terrorist.
 
heeeeeeeeeeey

did you notice I was being sarcastic when i said "don´t worry".

The advantage about knowing some Electrolux's secrets" is know that everything could be worst.

"only" 3k unnemployed people is nothing compared to what will come in the future.

Thank God i decided to quit before it happens with me.

And the worst thing.... Not only Electrolux does it. There are hundreds of manufacturers planning to close plants or move them for cheaper countries. The only important things are PROFITS, PROFITS AND PROFITS.
 
By the way...

Frigidaire´s Affinity washer - building costs <$120
Same model, retail seller´s price = Aprox. $700
Same model - Final consumer price = Aprox. >$900

same washer, but made in Mexico:
Building costs <$70
seller´s price = little bit higher because it´s "imported".
Final consumer price = much higher because it´s "imported".
 
What I'd Like to See....

....From the next Administration is a programme designed to encourage Stateside job retention.

One of the things I'd like to see is tax credits for keeping jobs here.

Another is a tax, similar to a "windfall profits" tax, specifically targeting profits achieved through plant closures and elimination of jobs, in instances where the closures and job eliminations were done to ship jobs overseas to cheaper labour forces.

What Washington doesn't seem to understand presently is that companies cannot be given free rein to profit in this fashion without damaging communities and the country as a whole. While there is certainly much to be said for free trade and leaner, meaner manufacturing, there needs to be more balance between profiteering and responsibility than we've seen lately.

The present situation, like the health care situation, amounts to a taxpayer subsidy for companies. The people who are thrown out of work by outsourcing or plant closure or profit-taking still have to eat, be housed, get health care, be re-trained. People are very resourceful and ingenious in meeting their own needs, but there are still many situations where out-of-work people need taxpayer-funded services to help tide them over.

I think a lot of companies are trying to do their profiteering stuff now, before the present Administration leaves office, because I think they suspect that a Democratic one might not be nearly so corporation-friendly when it comes to allowing companies to do as they jolly well please.

Please understand, I'm not advocating Draconian measures, and I do believe in the freest possible markets, but this war on the American worker needs to be stopped, by sensible measures that put the burden where it belongs- on the companies that affect communities so much with their presence or absence. To decimate the financial well-being of an entire city by shipping its jobs off to another country and then ride off into the sunset counting your billions is obscene.
 
They're all connected...

Being a small business owner, I have only part-time employees and there is just no margin in the books to offer any health benefits. If I would offer a minimal plan, I would have to pass that expense on to my customers who, as you might guess, would drop us like a hot potato in favor of another company that offers no health coverage and would charge less.

I pay for my own insurance which is only a major-medical policy (80/20, 1250 deduct, no Rx) and it's running me about $175 per month. For some of my part-time help, that's half of one bi-monthly paycheck. A couple of them have health care through their full-time jobs or through a spouse's employer. One of my people recently had to have surgery and has ongoing issues with hypertension and diabetes. She has no insurance, is 56 years old and let me tell you, the "subsidized medical care" in public hospitals and clinics is a myth. She was unable to get any care whatsoever until mountains of paperwork were completed and then waited nearly three weeks for an answer, the whole time worrying that she could have a stroke if the blood clot in her neck had moved up to her brain. Only after quitting all work and sources of income was she then eligible for any help through private charities and community organizations and then, she had no money for rent, groceries, lights, etc. Now since the price of gas has skyrocketed, it almost doesn't pay for these people to drive to work anymore and quite honestly, I can't blame them.

The answer to the problem is a very difficult one but to think for one minute that "businesses" should pay for the solution is absolutely impossible. Does the money come out of thin air? No, it has to come out of someone's pocket - either mine or my customer's and from where I'm looking, both are a pipe dream and not going to happen. You cannot demand or expect what people do not have.
 
The only important things are PROFITS, PROFITS AND PROFITS.

The statement is usually disguised as "We have a responsibility to our stockholders" as management gives themselves mega buck bonuses for moving labor overseas.

A few years ago the CEO of American Airlines got a ton of paycuts from pilots and F/A's. It was cutting wages to the bone. Then he handed himself and several other board of directors a 5 million dollar bonus to congratulate themselves for obtaining these cuts.
What happened? AA went on a massive slowdown over that Thanksgiving weekend and demanded that the CEO quit over this. When he quits, they'll come back to work. Sure enough, he resigned.
Now, on the other hand, Continental airlines just gave notice that 3,000 jobs will be lost due to furloughs. But the President and BOD said that they will not take any salary or bonuses for the rest of the year. At least that's the wise thing to do IMHO.
 
Because of the tax laws and the unions, our own government has made it easier, cheaper and more profitable to move manufacturing jobs out of the US. At the same time, it is adventageous for foriegn companies to import their products or set up their own plants here.

Consider that Exxon/Mobil is the only American gas company -- all others are owned by international companies no longer based here. Hence, all the vitriol against the profits posted by Exxon. Never mind that those profits belong to the stockholders -- most of which are middle American owned mutual funds in their 401k and by pension plans for teachers, police and other groups. And even with these supposed "windfall profits", they are operating on a pitiful small profit margin and their stock prices have actually declined.

Not to mention that any tax levied on a company are going to cause the price to go up for the end consumer. A tax is a cost to do business, someone has to pay for it, and that would be us.
 
Greg (gansky1):

I do understand what you are saying, and you're absolutely right that there's no simple solution. What I am trying to speak to is the present tendency of many corporations and businesses to have it all their way, with no responsibility to anyone.

One thing that might help is if health insurance was the law of the land, instead of an optional benefit. If every business pays a share (with people picking up their own share, which should be the largest piece of the pie; they're not working 24/7), then no one has a cost/price advantage based in not offering coverage. Massachusetts has already taken steps to do this; there are governmental subsidies for those who genuinely cannot afford coverage. The system will, hopefully, pay employers back for their insurance coverage expenses in the form of tax savings when people in desperate need no longer have to run up huge, unpayable bills in taxpayer-funded public hospitals. Like every other change, the Massachusetts system will undoubtedly have some kinks in it, and some unintended consequences. But they're trying something, which is more than I can say for most places. Here in Atlanta, our major public hospital, Grady, has ended up in dire trouble over uninsured patients. Saving it has been a booger, and it's not over yet.

In my opinion (and I consider this an appreciative discussion between friends, not an argument), it might help the American worker a great deal to make plant closings and outsourcing less immediately profitable. The job-elimination tax I propose would serve one purpose I consider very necessary to this country's future: Making companies and corporations consider alternatives to the easy way out. Right now, if you are a washer manufacturer, you can profit immediately and enormously by closing your American plants and having machines made in China. Finding ways to remain competitive while continuing to contribute to the prosperity of your community takes a lot more work, work many CEOs and management people don't seem to be willing to put in. Is is possible that an American company might be able to produce a product with advantages and benefits that cannot be matched in other countries? I'd like to see companies spending a little more time trying to figure that one out, instead of just saying to workers, "Don't let the door hit ya on the way out."

I know enough about you as a person, Greg, to know that your position is what you say it is, and that you are conscientiously struggling with realities you didn't make. But I want to offer the viewpoint that perhaps we should all be working together to change the rotten realities we've got now. I've mentioned some things that I think business might do or be required to do by government. I also think that individual consumers are going to have to grapple with the end of the free ride they've been getting. I remember when a 5000 BTU window air conditioner was about $225. Today, it's $89 on sale, and that's great if you're just worried about being cool. But people have to have at least some willingness to consider what happened to an American manufacturing plant, the people who worked in it, and the city in which it was located, to make that $89 price possible.

That will be the hard part. For a long time, it has been easy to be spoiled, without even admitting you are spoiled. Prices on many things have been artificially low for a long time, with many people receiving fat American paychecks, and demanding prices based on Third World wage scales. But as the economies of operation possible in the Third World increase in popularity with companies, fewer Americans will enjoy that fat American paycheck. What began as a few attractive bargains is becoming an addictive way of life, fueling a race to the bottom that is snarfing up American jobs and communities. Low prices are just the beginning.

One way that our government could help is to re-examine free trade agreements, and begin a process of redefining them so that we have free trade only with nations that have wage scales closer to American ones. Not identical, mind you, but something closer than we have today. It would be a very intricate and difficult task to accomplish, and it would have to work hand-in-hand with the acceptance of higher prices I mentioned in the previous paragraph, but it is another idea that might have some benefit. It's another way the playing field might possibly be re-levelled. At least let's look into it- that's more than our gummint is doing now.

I do appreciate the position of business owners like yourself. But I do want to see some of the excesses we've gotten trapped into curbed, and that's going to take a lot of ideas and frankly, some balls. But if we don't do it, the next jobs lost may be our own.
 
Because of the tax laws and the unions?

Peter,
If it were that simple than our ROI in Germany would be lower than yours. It isn't - it is higher and has been historically, not just now when the US is in serious trouble.
There are several reasons why businesses in the US are in trouble and I will agree with you on one thing (the first time we have ever agreed on economics?): It has become far more profitable for investors to NOT invest in American based labor intensive production.
What's to do?
For starters, it might help if folks in the US would put down their knee-jerk "that must be socialism!" (or neo-marxism, but those folks are beyond help) and actually see how other capitalist economies cope with problems such as health-care, motivating companies to keep their capital investment within the domestic economy, etc.
No, we don't have all the answers in the EU. A lot of our success is attributable to competition - and that is something the US is isolated from. Ironic, but true - we can't afford the typical American attitude of NIH and our way is always the best, the only way.

Except for England, none of us have socialized medicine in the EU, and yet we all have enormously better health care for our citizens...and even in England lower prices for the employers.
Only the US leaves this problem to be solved by employers and employees.
Oh, my private health insurance plan just announced a two month premium refund plus frozen rates for 2009...I pay 254€/month for unlimited stationary and dental and long-term disability (may the gods forbid)...none of this 80/20 nightmare folks in the US have. (well, dental is 100% doctor's fees, 80/20 material costs).
Despite this, my insurer may not turn anyone away...nor drop anyone who becomes ill...
And it is absolutely, totally, 100% private, non-socialist!
 
I'm sure I'll get yelled at for saying this, but I don't think employers should be responsible for providing medical insurance to employees. I've never had employer-provided coverage, and have managed to keep up a policy myself for over 20 years.

That being said, hospitalization insurance is a rip-off unless a truly major medical event occurs ... which of course that certainly can happen. I'd have been much better off by saving/investing the money I've paid to State Farm.
 
DaDoES

I surely would never yell at you (unless you wanted me to) but may I beg to differ?
When my parents were nearly killed in that horrid car accident, one of our biggest problems was that the administration in the hospital couldn't find my mom's health insurance at first. My brother had one hell of a fight to get her adequate treatment (they were just going to cut a leg off, amputate a hand at the wrist and transfer her to the "bled out will be a vegtable ward of the State" section.
My parents didn't cause the accident, the police and courts found the asshole who hit them 100% guilty and noted that my dad could not have avoided the accident in any way.
Yet, because of the situation in the US, my mother did not get the early treatment she needed - and would not have gotten what she needed at all if my parents had not been insured. It takes bloody forever to get the mu'fuck'in bastards from Traveler's to live up to their responsibilities, may they all rot forever in the ninth ring of hell and by the time a court had forced them to pay for the damage done by their client, it would have been too late.
Every single other advanced western Nation has found health insurance coverage for their citizens to be advantageous to the society and to the economy and to the Return On Investment for capitalists. I just don't get the US objections - they don't make sense economically, socially or in any "Christian" sense of the word...
By the by, the total bill for both my parents was well over one million dollars by the end of the second week and they were both still (back) in intensive. Another sad aspect of the poor health care situation in the US is that medicine is NOT nearly as advanced over other countries as people in the US are led to believe. Our system in Germany is, as a few people have noted before on this blog, quite a bit further along...and it is open to everyone.
 
Well, you have to come from the premise that health care is a right. It isn't. It is not the job of the government to provide healthcare or force anyone to carry healthcare insurance. It's between the patients and the doctor, period. The doctor provides the service, the patient pays. There are enough good doctors out there who will provide care at discount rates. I have already talked with mine about going cash-and-carry with him.

Panther, you said "A lot of our success is attributable to competition - and that is something the US is isolated from." I don't understand what you mean. "And it is absolutely, totally, 100% private, non-socialist!" But doesn't the government mandate that coverage? Could you not have health coverage as you outlined?

If an employer must cover employees' healthcare, then the cost of that is calculated along with the salary. The more benefits supplied, the less cash there is for salary. If the cost of the employee goes up, then, like the taxes, the price of the product to the consumer goes up to cover it.
 
Peter,

The trouble with the salary/health care benefits equation is that nearly all employers are too small to run their own clinics, hospitals, purchase pharmaceuticals at discount volumes, etc. So they are dependent on the proverbial "middle-man" and that just has not worked to anyone's advantage. When GM starts screaming about it, then it is time to rethink it.
In Germany, no one is forced to get health care. Yes, it is mandated but the situation is as follows.
If you can't afford health care, the government will pay for it on a case-by-case basis until you can pay for it. The qualifications for welfare as opposed to unemployment insurance are very stiff, in many ways stiffer than in the US.
If you earn enough money to be insured buy aren't, you will still receive emergency treatment, but the bill goes to you - and that one can be collected by a court.
People with lower to middle-class incomes take the "state" run plans - most of which make a profit, by the way - and those with middle-class incomes and higher (or poor folks like me who are self-employed) take "private" insurance which is strictly profit oriented...charges whatever rates they feel like...but can not drop me if I become ill, can not refuse me as a client (but can set the rate for my insurance, obviously. Or not so obviously).
Because insurance companies have a vested interest in earning a profit and because the government here does not forbid importing drugs from Canada, to set an example (and how was that captialism, I do still wonder?) we have a much stronger balance of power against the phramaceuticals industry.
Doctors may refuse to treat non-privately insured patients or indeed anyone whose insurance won't pay the rates they want...but if they do this, they then lose their right to guaranteed payment for services from the state run insurance plan. So it is a good bet that most doctors will accept everybody. Malpractice insurance here reflects the courts' policy of limiting lawsuits to actual damage done and none of this "my dignity was injured, fork over $7,000,000 bucks" nonsense which has made medical practice impossible in the US (try to find a pediatrician in many areas.)
There are advantages and disadvantages to all systems. The advantage to the US system is that a few people get rich. The advantage to the German system is that even smaller cities have far better medical care than most big US cities, available to all...and our businesses have a better ROI than the US offers, overall. - if capitalists make a higher profit in Germany, we have to be doing something right.
Didn't GM say recently that they could lower the cost of their cars by several thousand dollars if they paid the same rates for health insurance their international competition pay?
Oh, there is a minor note here of relevance. The US is beginning to draw the short straw in the global labor market for highly skilled labor. It has not been much noticed, but increasingly, really well educated people from China and India are staying home...or coming to us in Europe. As are an enormous number of young American engineers and other skilled professions. When you add the figures up, including taxes, living standards are better over here for such professions than in the US. Some companies (Microsoft, for instance) are already complaining about it. Health insurance is one of the biggest advantages our companies have to offer.
 
Healthcare isnt a right??

I nearlly fell off my chair when I read that line.

To the rest of the first world outside the US, healthcare is seen as a right. From all treatment is free, to you pay what you can systems. Is there another country other than the US where you can become bankrupt for being sick?

The expectation that is held in AU at least, is that if you're sick, you have access to a GP initially, and then access to a public or private specialist depending on what you can afford to pay. We have a national health cover that is paid for through a levy on federal taxes called Medicare. This system ensures health care to all Australians, the downside can be a delay of a few days to see a GP, or a wait of up to a couple of years to see a specialist for elective procedures. If you can afford to Pay, you can choose to use Private Health Insurance to access healthcare much quicker, but to pay the associated costs. Its not a perfect system, but it works pretty well.

The documentary in the link below was on TV here on Tuesday night. It looked at 4 countries, excluding Canada and Australia, at how healthcare can be available for all at less than the 16% of GDP that it costs the US. I was aware of the NHS in the UK, but not about the solutions available in other countries. The solution implemented in Taiwan is amazing.

Anywho, just my thoughts and another opinion.

 

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