UNUSED GE Pot scubber Dishwasher

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european cold fill machines

Steve, remember that european households have normal current that we would consider to be 220/240 volt and that gives them the ability to heat water from cold much faster than our anemic 120 volt power in homes in the U.S. I think European brands are designed to heat to a particular temperature set point and won't "time out" as would a comparable American brand.
 
My dishwasher is hard wired - I thought that was the norm for the USA, but perhaps not.

Even though my dishwasher is connected to wimpy 120 US current, it heats the water pretty fast. It heats the water, machine, and dishes about 2 degrees a minute. I have measured a full load starting at 100F just before the heater starts, it is up to 140F in 20 minutes. I believe the heater is 1200 watts.
 
Results again please,DADoEs?

Any chance of reposting the results or perhaps a link we plebians can access?

And Joe in Philly, what make and model machine do you have? Sounds pretty near to a vintage KA machine!
 
 
SteveT, the original thread in which I cited figures should be in the archives, probably a couple years back.  Search for my username and dishdrawer and kwh usage.

I ran a load this afternoon and checked the figures afresh.  I did not turn the household water heater off as on the previous tests.  Relevant factors are:
- The current setpoint is 102°F.
- The DD takes 0.8 gals per fill.
- At least one fill is required to purge the line ... probably more like 1.5 gals to reach ~100°F.
- Being that it's a tankless water heater, there's a bit of the "cold sandwich" factor comes into play between fills.  Per a tap-check a half-hour or so after the cycle finished, I'd estimate the fills were average 85°F, maybe approaching 90°F.  Weather is still hot here and there's some solar heating via the attic plumbing.  Setting the water heater down to 50°F would have had a negligible effect on the results.

So ... the numbers.

Normal cycle.  1 hr 55 mins (115 mins) default/estimated. Cycle time is extended as required to reach the target temps.  I did not check the time exactly so can't say what was the final run-time but it typically is not much over the estimate.  Even winter-cold fills don't extend the time by an agonizing amount, unless maybe I just don't notice.

5 water changes.  W - R - W - R - R - D

140°F main wash.

150°F final rinse.

0.54 KWH power used.  Including water heating.  Like five 100-watt light bulbs and a 40-watter on for an hour.

Reasonable?

Excessive?
 
Just remember guys that "cold" tap temperature differs greatly from (TX, FL, NV, AZ) than from (MN, ND, ME, MI)................


For our international friends read as: in southern states near the equator than form northern states near Canada.
 
VERY interesting thread! We replaced out old dishwasher about 6yrs. ago with a Bosch designed Kenmore Elite tall tub. Once Greg heard how quiet it was ( we have a 50's cape cod brick house, and you could hear the old 70's model running everywhere in the house!) he wouldn't settle for anything less! We almost always run the pots and pans cycle as it is shorter, though still pretty long at 112 min. I like the idea of that shorter cycle and hotter water. Everything almost always comes out clean! Even oatmeal on the upper racks. It dries pretty well, too, esp. if opened up soon after the drying cycle ends and the dishes are still hot. I think we lucked into one of the better modern designs. I clean the screens when I am home and remember to, but rarely find much. Hearing your horror stories makes me hope it'll last for awhile!

Only one issue with it is a rusted through spot on the upper rack. Any ideas for a repair? The stainless tub still looks great.

I'll have to explore when back home many washes/rinses it does.

My dad, however, has a less expensive Kenmore with the soil "sensor" also about 5-6yrs old. That damn thing can run for 3 NOISY hrs on almost any cycle but the "quick" one, and that is still about an hour! I suspect that sediment from his well water may be tricking the sensor into thinking there is still grime in the water. Doesn't dry the dishes worth a crap either... It was NOT a cheap machine, think it was well over $400 on sale. Like many older folks, he REALLY rinses everything, and has taken to running the short cycle.

On the vintage front, our "gay grandpa" lived in a Chicago high-rise with a Kitchen Aid DW; I believe a Suberba from somewhere in the 70's. The building was a Mies van der Rohe design from the mid-60's, but doubt the dishwasher was that old. Think it did have some buttons and a dial. I loaded and emptied it many times and everything always came clean! That thing soldiered on forever and was reasonably quiet. Cannot recall what it was replaced with, but recall him saying it was NOT up to the performance of his KA!

Again, it DOES come down to good design. I have MANY issues with the poor design of many current American products. EVERYTHING is about marketing hype these days, NOT real performance.
 
John.....what a great test.....I'm gonna do that one, dried as mentioned.......

I have a Convertible Kenmore UltraWash from 1988.....I got it with the stipulation, bake a cake and frost it, place the whole cake and plate in the dishwasher on the Normal cycle, if anything was left the dishwasher was FREE!

You KNOW how many damn cakes I baked and stuck in there? ? ?....too freakin many, and all washed away!...dammit!

but in hindsite....who wants a FREE dishwasher if it won't clean dishes?.....just a gimmick....but nice to know I could!....LOL
 
Kenmore Elite = Bosch

John,

Our Kenmore Elite is a Bosch design with stainless tub. It is a tall one, but is about 3" shallower than the domestic designs (we learned this is to make it flush with European cabinets). The control panel has the same settings as the Bosch, but has small circular buttons rather than the large, familiar "rocker" switches of the Bosch. Really has been a good performer, with almost daily use. I don't hesitate to stack things over one another, esp. on the lower rack.

Perhaps it would be wisest just to replace the upper rack(it is adjustable, a WONDERFUL thing!)rather than attempt some kind of patch to the rusty spot. NOT getting any rust spots on dishes...

Duane
 
Cross-posted from Deluxe, being that heating time is of relevance to this thread.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I ran a load this afternoon and monitored the cycle. The Kill-a-Watt meter is still connected, but I didn't check it before starting so I can't say how much power was used. This info is only in regards to time.

I cranked the water heater down to 50°F so the fills were tap-cold.

Kitchen faucet temp read about 82°F.

Normal Eco cycle.
88 mins initial time.
Wash (or prerinse), Wash 125°F, Rinse, Rinse 125°F, Dry.

88 Mins = Start

81 Mins = first drain. That makes the prewash 7 mins (no delay for heating).

78 mins = start of main wash fill

46 mins = main wash drain. That makes the main wash approx 32 mins. In my previous instances of monitoring the temp in the tub, the heated cycle phase ends within a couple mins of the target temp being reached. I assume there's a minimum time involved in case of a really HOT fill, but don't know what is it.

43 mins = first rinse fill.

39 mins = first rinse drain.

36 = final rinse fill

25 = final rinse drain. That makes the final rinse approx 11 mins, including water heating ... which was apparently aided by residual heat from the wash, even with a cold-fill rinse preceding. Still, 11 mins is much less than I'd expect.

Remaining time is drying.

Timing the cycle separately via the minute timer on my microwave, the full cycle was extended by only 3 minutes. At 25 mins remaining time on the dishwasher display, the microwave had 22 mins left. The dishwasher had 3 mins dry time left when the minute timer ended.
 
OMG

just came across this thread....An UNUSED 1978 GE Dishwasher? I mean, how freaking RARE is that? I wonder how something like this would FARE over the years of just sitting? Sure, it has never been operated, but since it's almost 40 freaking years old, I wonder how it would sound when running or have any problems with seals or things like that.....I just LOVE the look of it. I do like some of the modern dishwashers, but I really really wish they still made dishwashers like they did in the 80s/90s...

One thing I've never understood about energystar and being green and saving the planet is the fact that a lot of these new appliances end up in a landfill in 5 years. I've been lucky with my modern appliances so far......2004 range, fridge, microwave all still working.....but the dishwasher died at 9.2 yrs.
 
appliance lifespan

I have to agree - there's no way in hell anyone can convince me that building major appliances to last for 3-5 years is good for the environment.

Or the pocketbook.

Except for microwave ovens, I can't think of a single, solitary kitchen appliance which works better today than the really good appliances of the 1960's to mid-70s.

Not one.

As to dishwashers - why would I want something which requires me to pre-rinse my dishes and can't even self-clean?

We spent more restoring our Twenty-Eight Hundred than a 'good' modern dishwasher costs. We'll get another thirty years out of the GSD 2800 without major work. That's at least five if not six of the bacteria, slime mold and garbage spreading current trash on the market.
 
WOW!
I've never seen a GE machine like that before!
Fascinating!
Why on earth did they ever abandon the middle wash arm like that???
The towers were pretty good, but I have no idea why they didn't at least offer both for all these decades.
At least not until their Triton line.

And I just don't know what to say about all the whining about new energy efficient machines.
There's a lot of ignorance in this arena, both unintentional and chosen.

There's A LOT of truth behind EU vs US and our electrical ratings.
There's also a lot to say about EU machines heating their water with actual flow-through heaters which are more efficient. US machines mainly rely on heating water in a random fashion with an exposed coil, compounded by lower voltage. So of course our US machines won't be good at heating water.
Also, importantly, EU nations have very hard water and so all their dishwashers have built in water softeners. Soft water, I've learned the hard way (giggity!) is a HUGE performance variable.
If you're saddled with hard water, the best of the best dishwashers won't do squat.
Many many US locations also have hard to very hard water, yet we're not accustomed to always softening our water, NOR do ANY of our appliances have built in water softening characteristics. So we're screwed right off the bat.

With that said, I hope there are plenty of posts by now in the Blue section to disprove a lot of these myths.
We now have plenty of discussion, testing and video evidence to show that modern machines are not nearly as horrible as people think.
Sure, they were pretty bad in mid-2000's, but I think a lot of the kinks have been worked out.
Not to mention, the relatively speaking, torrent of water that a certain Whirlpool is able to throw around with what looks like a pond pump. Albeit with separate rack washing.

I too am not thrilled with the demise of hard food disposers. But it IS partly consumers' faults.
Disposers require larger pumps and power, which are louder. And people when they're standing in Menard's with a pimple-faced sales dude, will look, and only really look at price, and db levels of the machines.
When the price and db levels align to the lowest amounts, that's usually what people will pick. And they'll only complain about wash-ability later. Yet further complain if the machine is "too loud" despite it washing well.
It's a no-win.

Pertaining to energy. It's incredibly counter-intuitive, especially in our society where basic science knowledge is panned and ridiculed.
But when you split the wash action between racks, reduce the water fill, and further reduce the water flow paths and jets, you can create still a forceful spray with a small efficient DC magnetic pump with a higher RPM to build up your pressure force. These little motors can often run twice as long or more and still use the same or often LESS electricity than their older induction motor ancestors.

YES, I have sporadic washability issues in my modern GE Profile machine, mainly on the top rack. But the bottom rack has been flawless since inception. I've NEVER dealt with a machine, vintage or modern, that's actually performed 100% flawless, 100% of the time.
Maybe I'm just unlucky.
But as it was mentioned up-thread, it really comes down to design. There's verifiable evidence that Whirlpool has simply better designed certain aspects of their machine, over my GE, such as better top rack coverage, and filter soil management.
They're both great machines in my opinion though.

With all those combined, these modern machines really do use less resources, even combined with the odd reject, or some brief filter rinsing.
And I'm thankful for that.
The only caveat I see today is time, with longer cycles. And that too, just simply isn't an issue unless you need to do back to back dishwashing, which really is only an issue upon heavy holiday time.

Just my 5 cents. (Inflation sucks)
 
The electrical is true

I miss my three-phase power in Munich. I miss plain old 230V power.

It's not that big of a deal, though, for a washing machine. Any of our Potscrubbers can raise the temp about 1.5-1.8 degrees/minute/F.

Our inlet water is 145F, so by the time the potscrubber cycle is over, they've either limited water to 165F or it's gone up to about 170F, dependent upon unit.

(The GSD 2800, of course, cuts the heat at the appropriate point for each chosen cycle.

If these 40 year old machines can manage that with 900 Watts, then there' simply no excuse for the trash being sold to Americans today. It's worse than worthless, it's just a breeding ground for illness causing microbes.

 

As to the Potscrubber II, anyone who wants a laugh should read the GE Service Bulletin on it here in the archives. Ye gods and little fishies, no wonder they abandoned it and it's middle washarm. By the time they had the problems worked out (and they did, in the end), their reputation was shot.
 

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