Vintage amplifier wattages

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rickr

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I know some of you guys are into vintage electronics, and I have a question. Are amp output power wattages graded the same on tube amps vs transister amps. In other words does a 15 watt per channel tube amplifier perform better than a 50 watt per channel transister amp?

Say I have a 50 watt per channel Music Power Output (MPO-EIA) transister amp. Would I be better off replacing that with a 15 watt per channel tube amp? I know the wattages were rated in various ways also.
 
Rick,

The only power output which matters is the rms wattage. Everything else is bull-shit.

With few exceptions, most Hi-Fi tube amps delivered 5-15 watts rms per channel. The modern versions (which are seldom modern, by the way.) come in around this range, too.

That is the reason that vintage speaker systems were considerably more efficient than the modern designs - they had to be.

Because of the inverse square relationship between power in and sound pressure level out, you can either increase the efficiency of loud speakers by two decibels or quadruple the power output of the amp to achieve the same result.

There are lots of arguments pro and con tube based amps, you will find some very informative links on the web written by folks who have taken the time to really analyze the topic in depth. Below, a link to a clear discussion of the differences in power rating, hope it helps.

Very basically, a 50 MPO is probably about 2.5 to 5 watts "clean" power compared to an rms output. If that. So, strictly from that perspective, yes it makes sense. But you need much more information to make a decision here which will satisfy you.
Lots more.



 
Thanks Keven

So the 15 watt per channel tube amp has more power than a 50 MPO watt per channel transistor powered amp then.

I thought that was the way the two were rated btw.

Warmer sound, and deeper bass response are results of the tube type amps vs the transistor type.
 
Most of the time, you'll only peak at a few watts with any amp, if the speakers are efficient.

Oh, and there are plenty of punchy tube amps - the venerable McIntosh Mc275 is rated 75 watts / channel, but it's clean well beyond that. The headroom's useful, but even a 15 watt amp will fill the room.
 
As a point of reference, most of the tube stereo receivers like Fisher, Scott, etc. are around 22W RMS per-channel.

It's amazing what retailing gets away with today. Have you seen the horsepower rating on regular lawnmowers today? More BS!

Ken
 
I think there is still some confusion here . . .

Keven is right when he says he only power measurement that matters is the RMS power, so forget any old Music Power ratings. As an amp is asked to produce more and more power, it starts to distort, and those old music power measurements often allowed an unacceptable level of distortion in an attempt to create big power numbers. Because there is no exact correlation between Music Power and RMS power, don’t try to compare them.

Solid state amps are better at making lots of power without excess distortion because they are more efficient at dealing with heat issues than tube amps. The downside is that they are worse at dealing with low impedance loads from the speakers. The impedance (given in ohms) is a measurement of the resistance the speaker has to the power being pushed by the amp. Usually speakers are nominally rated at 4 or 8 ohms, but the reality is much more sophisticated, as the actual impedance varies according to the music being produced. So, a small tube amp may sound better with some “4 ohm” speakers which actually get down to 2 ohms under some conditions than a more powerful solid state amp.

Once solid state amps became the industry standard in the ‘60s, a great many speaker designers switched to acoustic suspension designs (pioneered by Henry Kloss at Acoustic Research in the late ‘50s). Acoustic suspension makes great bass in a relatively small cabinet but takes a lot of power. Using smaller woofers also requires more power in that the cone has to move farther to make a certain amount of sound in comparison to a larger woofer. Back in the ‘50s and ‘60s nobody expected much bass from less than a 10 or 12 inch woofer, but now lots of pretty good speakers have 8 or even 6 inch woofers. These aren’t generally suited to low power amps.

If you are going to use a low powered amp of any type, tube or solid state, then you need to look more for the classic type of larger speaker with an infinite baffle or bass-reflex cabinet design. These were the industry standard for good sound when tube amps were common, and can still sound great today. The ultimate is probably the old corner standing Klipshorn, which is huge but extremely efficient . . . great if you have a very large living room. And, if you can afford that living room and Klipschorns you could probably afford the 75 watt McIntosh amp too, and be in true vintage hi-fi heaven (if this is the case please invite me over for some Sinatra!). However, there were lots of good smaller speakers back then too, just not the tiny ones we see today.

As noted above, there is lots and lots of information about tube amps and old audio on the web, and many picky listeners really do like the “warmer” sound of tubes.
 
Is this Magnavox a candidate for transplant surgery?

Thanks guys, I knew there were some hi-fi people around here.

I have a large Sansui system from 1982 in the basement rec room, but I really do not use that system much anymore, just for parties really.

I use a console Magnavox from 1965 on the first floor, all the time though.
The tuner is getting weak, so I need to do something with it. I was thinking of simply replacing the transistor amp and tuner with an older Magnavox tube amp and tuner. The speakers in the Magnavox console are not air suspended, but they are 8 ohm 15" woofers and treble horns.

I can find a tube amp and tuner and recap it. That is not an issue. And I am sure I can do the swap job ok also.
The question is, would I gain anything from this move?

Remember, the transistor amp and tuner have to come out of this console for repair anyway, and I am not even sure if I can find anyone local to work on it.

Please, your expert opinions again guys?

Thanks!
Rick
 
The biggest issue with transistors is that they don't like operating "in between". Transistors are basically an electronic switch, and they either let power through, or they block power. The challenge to making transistors useful came from making them operate in a totally variable analogue way, where one could VARY the power as easy as they could turn it on and off. This is what makes transistors suitable for audiovisual devices like TV's and radios. The problem is that to regulate the power in that "middle" state that's not quite on and not quite off means the transistor operates like a resistor...and that makes them generate heat.

The second part of the challenge was making them operate in a linear fashion. I remember learning all the equasions in electronics engineering classes that described the condustive properties of power applied to the base versus the collector. Most follow curves, either convex or concave. The better the semiconductor, the more linear the response, and the less distortion at the output that you hear at your ears. Tubes, however are very linear in their response between grid voltage applied versus plate output. When the output device (be it tube or transistor) is fully cut on, or fully cut off while reproducing a sound way, you get what is known as clipping. This is because if you were to look at the sound wave on a scope, you would see that the top and bottoms of the wave get squared off just like someone took a pair of sizzors and cut them off at a specific height.

The dirty trick that many solid-state amplifier manufacturers used to measure wattage however was operating their amplifier's transistors at maximum conduction. The obvious problem with this is that you will never achieve this while listening to music, and even if for some reason you did, you would not even be able to tell that it was music coming out of your speakers due to the clipping distortion...that is if your speakers survived that severe clipping distortion!!! Luckily, regulations in advertising have come about, and created RMS power measurements that are performed with a sine wave, and at what distortion ratio the power was achieved at.

Tubes, OTOH, are the exact OPPOSITE. They like to operate in the "in between" states, and as you approach full cutoff, or full conduction, their response becomes non linear. This is good though, because music is ever-changing, and doesn't get near these zones. If someone is pushing a tube amp near it's output limits, the clipping is much less harsh, as it sort of rounds out smoother when clipping. In many instances, a tube amp can be operated closer to it's power limitations than a solid state amp because of this fact...the distortion is simply more bearable to the ear near their maximum potiental.

One of the beauties of a tube amp too is not the tubes themselves, it's the output transformers. Like Hydraulique was mentioning, speakers don't have the same impedience across their entire frequency response. This issue however is absorbed by the output transformer, and the tubes don't see this, so frequency response is more even with less than perfect speakers. High efficiency speakers tend to sacrifice uniform frequency responce for their efficiency, but this was not a big issue with the older tube amps because of those transformers. The transformers too, were one of the reasons why tube amps were limited in their output power. Many classic tube amplifiers, especially McIntosh, like Phil mention got their reputation NOT because of them being tubes, but because of the superior build quality of their output transformers. Building an output transformer that will be resonant from 20hz all the way to 20,000 hz is a serious engineering challenge. Output transformers too, can also absorb clipping distortion, becasue the magnetic flux built up in them will fill in when clipping occurs. A few high end solid state amplifiers have been built with output transformers for the exact reasons stated here. This is a rare feature however because output transformers are expensive, and really aren't necessary on a solid state amp.
 
Forgot to add.... The tube type amps from the pre 1962 Magnavox console stereos were 15 watt per channel, with 2 6V6 tubes per channel.
 
Thanks Steven!

Ohhhhh! I really want to do the surgery, if you guys think this old console would sound better with the tube amp!
 
Horsepower ratings

Hey Ken, I always laugh at horsepower ratings on automobiles, which seem to follow the same course as mower engines! Horsepower is mathematically extrapolated between the torque rating and RPM ratings. Many automobile manufacturers however have figured out that you can achieve some really insane horsepower ratings to put in your ad's if you rev a tiny motor up to some outrageous RPM that it will never see in the real world. Most of those little motors in compact cars these days hardly put out a quarter of their rating at the speeds you'd be running them at in normal daily driving.

Lawnmower companies have been using the same dirty trick! A lawnmower engine is typically regulated to spin no faster than 3600 RPM. The problem comes when the maximum horsepower of the motor is measured at like 4800 RPM! The motor will NEVER see that speed, and therefore will NEVER produce it's rated output...that is unless some crazy removes the govenor and operates it free (I wouldn't recommend this unless you plant to build the motor into a go-kart or something!)

Many people see the lackluster horsepower ratings of electric automobiles and think that they would be slow. Quite the contrary! Electric motors produce their maximum torque at ZERO RPM. Electric vehicles tend to accellerate rather quickly, and don't need transmissions. While an electric motor is putting out much of it's power out of most of it's RPM range, a gasoline or diesel engine only achieves it's maximum output within a narrow operating range.

Top speed is reached on an electric vehicle however as the RPM of the motor increases to the point that torque amounts falls too low to pick up any more speed. If you've ever read anything about subways and electric trains, they had to install resistors in line with the electric motors so they would not pull unlimited amounts of current while starting from a dead stop. Without these, the train would jerk violently when starting off, spinning it's wheels, throwing passengers off their feet, and even possibly burning out the windings in the motor! Top speed of the train is regulated automatically through calculating the gearing and weight ratios, and will pretty much stay the same no matter if it's going up a hill or loaded with passengers or not. (this however has been a problem in getting electric automobiles to keep up with 80+ mph interstate highway traffic and still achieve good range)
 
More on transistors vs tubes

Sorry for rambling on about this topic, it's just one of those things I get into rather intensly!

Transistors made the modern computer possible not just because they can be made tiny, but because of their propiensity to want to operate either fully on or fully off...otherwise known as "digital"

Now, you've probably heard of "digital" amplifiers, and thought it was just a bunch of hooey, but actually, it is not. Digital amplifiers these days (sometimes called class "D") are the reason why you can get some outrageous ratings on some of the latest pro audio gear (which I've seen approach the 1800 watts per channel rating!)

You guys have probably heard of PWM controllers being used to control the speed on washing machine motors. They are used all over the place. Basically, they are a digital way of applying power to a motor. The motors are fed power pulses at extremely high frequencies. The longer the transistors are switched on, the more power is applied to the motor, and the faster the motor spins.

Well, the same PWM technology can actually be applied to an audio amplifier to make it over 90 percent efficient, and run cool at the same time. Instead of varying the input in an analogue fashion, the audio amplifier's output transistors are switched on and off digitally between saturation and cutoff at extremely high frequencies...usually about 160 Khz minimum (higher depending on the quality of the amp) When this high frequency is modulated with a comparatively low audio signal, the pulse width varies between long for more output power, and short, for less...imagine speeding up and slowing down your washer motor with a knob on the front panel, and that's sort of what's going on here. The high frequency is filtered out, and all that's left is the lower frequency sound wave that is fed to the speakers.

These amplifiers achieve some very good specifications that almost look unreal, especially at their price range. A look inside will reveal an inordate amount of components too.
 
Nice post, cybrvanr!

And a nice cabinet on that Magnavox too. One reason I'd think carefully about replacing a solid state receiver in such a console unit with a tube type is heat. Tubes can make a lot of heat and this degrades them, and I doubt if there is much ventilation in that cabinet. Remember how all the old component tube hi-fi amps and tuners had big grilles on top of the cabinets, or in the case of power amps often had no cabinet other than a sort of metal cage? Perhaps a carefully hidden computer fan or two would fix this.

I doubt if it will be easy to find anyone to repair the old Magnavox solid state electronics. If it were mine I'd probably just transplant the '80s Sansui electronics into the console and buy another receiver for the rec room. That way you'd have a working system with a phono preamp, something most modern equipment no longer has, so your Magnavox phono would still operate. If you have a turntable in your rec room this might not be ideal. Either way you lose the romance of the tube type stuff though.
 
I have found lots of cases of bad capacitors in older solid state amps, especially in devices such as jukeboxes. I would replace all the large electrolytics in the power supply/output stages on the Magnavox solid state; typically the bass response really deteriorates when these caps start going bad.
An ESR meter is good to use to help find bad caps in these sort of devices.
 
Horsepower

I had no idea that lawn mower companies were in a power race, but I do know that it took the Feds to finally clean up the inaccurate horsepower ratings cars had back in the '60s. An engine would be rated on a dyno, without an air cleaner, water pump, alternator, belts, or stock exhaust manifolds. Essentially the power number produced could not be replicated once the engine was installed in a car, which of course was the whole reason for producing the engine in the first place! Duh. This all changed with the new rules in the early '70s which required that normal accessories had to be on the engine when it was dynoe'd.

Inflated numbers did make a lot of guys happy back then as they whooshed down freeways in "400 hp" Chevys and Fords heading home to put some Percy Faith on "300 Watt Music Power" stereos. Thank goodness some things have remained the same, though, as an 80 proof cocktail is still an 80 proof cocktail and that's what I find best with my lounge music!
 
Rick,

Go for it! The heat will need dissipating...that is why the power amp you see there is missing a few of the tubes which were located in the "pre-amp" which was physically removed by a good couple of feet.
The line-in on those was usually the same or close enough voltage and capacitance as on modern AUX or DVD ins on modern SS equipment, so that will be no problem.
It has been many years since I dealt with that amp, but those caps will have to be replaced.

Again, long time since I saw this one (we pulled them in the late '60s by the dozens, idiots us, and replaced them with SS) but I think it may have one leg of the 120V grounded directly to the chassis.
This means care and caution!
Oh - and since nobody else has mentioned it, do remember please that these amps carry internally both the voltage and the current to kill you, even with the power off. We had a nice series on all of that a few threads back. Take it seriously.
But do it! The sound is worth it!
I rebuilt my folks 1959 VM console (the one that won design awards all over the world, solid wood, impressive specs.) using the tube power amp and a solid state pre-amp/selector. When a fuse blew several years later in a thunder storm, the idiot repairman came out, said it was not worth repairing - too old - and it ended up getting tossed in the leaky back shed. By the time I got to it, the water damage was too great...but the innards, once the fuse were replaced, were still perfect. Since then I have been partial to all these beauties from the past. But now, when I put in vintage machines or electronics in the house, I post a big label on the back or side or bottom that it is mine and not to be thrown out without calling me first. We shall see...
 
I think I will go for it. The cabinet is the same design as when they were tube powered. There is plenty of room in the cabinet. The removable back panel has plenty of holes in it, so that was a carry over from the tube amp days also. I could put a hi-fi cooling fan in there also, if needed.

I will purchase the tube amp and tuner and hook it up to the speakers first. If it does not sound all that great, or is not loud enough, will re-sell the tube amp and have the solid state amp repaired.
If the tube amp sounds good, will re-cap it, and install it in the console cabinet.

Any other comments, please feel free.

Thanks guys!

Rick
 
Rick, having owned both a pre- and post- solid state Magnavox console in the 60's, I applaud your decision to go with the tube type amp. It sounded much better.

Exponential treble horns were used due to compensate for the sharp high-end response roll-off of their early "Astro-Sonic" solid state amps with germanium transistors. The horns are much more efficient at high frequencies than cone speakers. They may give a weird response in the mid-range to treble frequencies when paired with the tube amp, or may actually peform exceptionally.

At any rate, let us know the results. I sure wish I had kept my tube type 1962 Walnut 5 foot console.
 

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